Stossel - Security vs Liberty

[PAF]

[PAF]

Mission Statement

Core liberty principles:

• Groups of individuals can self-organize and impose rules upon themselves, but should not force the same on others.
• You have the right to own property which you can voluntarily give or trade with others as you see fit.
• The fruits of your labor are yours alone, unless you agree otherwise.
• You should not initiate aggression against other people.
• You should not steal or destroy others property.
• You have the right to defend your life, freedom and property.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content.php?1957

[CaptUSA]

They just need more power - that's all. And then the problem will be fixed. And if not, we'll just give 'em even more power until it IS fixed.

[Stratovarious]

Who do you think is going to chime in on this OP and advocate Checkpoints
100 miles or even 10 miles from the border?

No one.



Red Herring, blsht memes.


Open Society Globalists think Libertarians are this gullible.


:facepalm:

[jkr]

KING SNAKE
#STR8UPtraitor

[Stratovarious]

KING SNAKE
#STR8UPtraitor

KING SNAKE
#STR8UPtraitor

[acptulsa]

They just need more power - that's all. And then the problem will be fixed. And if not, we'll just give 'em even more power until it IS fixed.

As long as they have a scapegoat.

'America didn't turn communist because I insisted on giving the government unlimited power, had no tolerance for my MSM-fueled concept of ideological impurity, and insisted we be walled in like bastions of communism like East Germany and Israel. America turned communist because brown people!'

[Swordsmyth]

As long as they have a scapegoat.

'America didn't turn communist because I insisted on giving the government unlimited power, had no tolerance for my MSM-fueled concept of ideological impurity, and insisted we be walled in like bastions of communism like East Germany and Israel. America turned communist because brown people!'

We were balanced on a knife's edge between those who wanted less government (even if they didn't want as little as they should) and those who wanted more, immigrants and invaders (OF ALL COLORS) tipped that balance against us.

It IS the final straw that breaks the camel's back.

[acptulsa]

We were balanced on a knife's edge between those who wanted less government (even if they didn't want as little as they should) and those who wanted more, immigrants and invaders (OF ALL COLORS) tipped that balance against us.

It IS the final straw that breaks the camel's back.

You DON'T know that. You CAN'T know that. Repeating it will NOT make it true. The border boondogwall COULD as likely grow government to this MYTHICAL "tipping point" you INSIST on blathering about. Americans MUST be reeducated because we ARE turning socialist FASTER than immigration could POSSIBLY change our demographics. Immigration IS a straw. It is a TINY drip in a HUGE bucket.

But by all means, keep right ON spamming half-baked opinions AS fact.

[Swordsmyth]

You DON'T know that. You CAN'T know that. Repeating it will NOT make it true. The border boondogwall COULD as likely grow government to this MYTHICAL "tipping point" you INSIST on blathering about. Americans MUST be reeducated because we ARE turning socialist FASTER than immigration could POSSIBLY change our demographics.

But by all means, keep right ON spamming half-baked opinions AS fact.

It has already happened, ask California.

’40-Year’ Flood of Immigration Turns Orange County Blue - New York Times

Democrats Winning 90% of Congressional Districts with Large Foreign-Born Populations

[acptulsa]

It has already happened, ask California.

Breitbart.

’40-Year’ Flood of Immigration Turns Orange County Blue - New York Times

which now has a more than 30 percent foreign-born population

Yeah, that must be the whole problem.

Democrats Winning 90% of Congressional Districts with Large Foreign-Born Populations

The research, though, does not explain why House Districts with small foreign-born populations continue to be Democratic strongholds.

Sounds like correlation just might not be causation.

You know, most immigrants come here to work. They might just vote for Republicans, if Republicans didn't remind them they don't want their votes continually, with the intensity only spammers can achieve.

[Swordsmyth]

Breitbart.

’40-Year’ Flood of Immigration Turns Orange County Blue - New York Times





Yeah, that must be the whole problem.

Democrats Winning 90% of Congressional Districts with Large Foreign-Born Populations





Sounds like correlation just might not be causation.

You know, most immigrants come here to work. They might just vote for Republicans, if Republicans didn't remind them they don't want their votes continually, with the intensity only spammers can achieve.

Nobody has ever claimed that immigrants were the only problem but they are the final straw that is breaking our back, that is what I already said in my earlier post.

It is simply ludicrous to deny it.

[Stratovarious]

Breitbart.

....

You know, most immigrants come here to work. They might just vote for Republicans, if Republicans didn't remind them they don't want their votes continually, with the intensity only spammers can achieve.

Blsht , Illegals come here to collect welfare.

[acptulsa]

Nobody has ever claimed that immigrants were the only problem but they are the final straw that is breaking our back, that is what I already said in my earlier post.

It is simply ludicrous to deny it.

Repeat it some more. Keep impugning people with doubts.

Goebbels did say if you repeat something--even a lie--often enough, it becomes true. You might pull that off eventually.

One thing that used to be a lie--immigrants don't vote Republucan--you have helped make true. If you stopped repeating it, it could turn back into a lie.

[Swordsmyth]

Repeat it some more. Keep impugning people with doubts.

Goebbels did say if you repeat something--even a lie--often enough, it becomes true. You might pull that off eventually.

One thing that used to be a lie--immigrants don't vote Republucan--you have helped make true. If you stopped repeating it, it could turn back into a lie.

You are the one repeating lies, the immigrants never voted Republican, they always voted socialist just like they did in their home countries.

[acptulsa]

Blsht , Illegals come here to collect welfare.

Funny, I sure see a lot of them cutting grass and making beds.

Got a link? What did you pull that "fact" out of? Bet you weren't sitting down at the time.

You are the one repeating lies, the immigrants never voted Republican, they always voted socialist just like they did in their home countries.

Always? Never? The U.S.-Mexico border has been where it is--and has been getting crossed--since 1848. Think Mexico had socialists to vote for in 1848?

These posts ought to be in the religion section. You people have nothing to back your opinions up. You just take this stuff on pure faith.

[Stratovarious]

Funny, I sure see a lot of them cutting grass and making beds.

Got a link? What did you pull that "fact" out of? Bet you weren't sitting down at the time.
....

I posted a thread on it, yea, most collect welfare, when it runs out, maybe
some of them 'cut grass' as you say, but Christ , are you not being the racist you pretend
to hate?

[Swordsmyth]

Funny, I sure see a lot of them cutting grass and making beds.

Got a link? What did you pull that "fact" out of? Bet you weren't sitting down at the time.

Doesn't your side tell us that ending welfare will solve the problem?

63% of Non-Citizen Households Access Welfare Programs Compared to 35% of native households

Always? Never? The U.S.-Mexico border has been where it is--and has been getting crossed--since 1848. Think Mexico had socialists to vote for in 1848?

These posts ought to be in the religion section. You people have nothing to back your opinions up. You just take this stuff on pure faith.

They did have socialists back then, just like Europe:

"The year 1848 is turning out well", wrote Engels. "By this glorious revolution the French proletariat has again placed itself at the head of the European movement. All honour to the workers of Paris!" That revolution spread across the whole of Europe, marking an important development in the class struggle. "A spectre is haunting Europe - the spectre of Communism", wrote Marx and Engels in the opening passage of the Communist Manifesto. "All powers of old Europe have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this spectre: Pope and Tsar, Metternich and Guizot, French Radicals and German police spies." Prophetically, on the day of the Manifesto's publication in London, Europe was ablaze with revolution.
King Louis-Phillipe of France abdicated immediately. Guizot the French Prime Minister was dismissed and Prince Metternich of Austria fell within a few weeks. Marx and Engels hoped that the revolution would only serve as "the immediate prelude to the proletarian revolution." They immediately hailed the revolution which first broke out in France on 24^th February 1848.

"The year 1848 is turning out well", wrote Engels. "By this glorious revolution the French proletariat has again placed itself at the head of the European movement. All honour to the workers of Paris!
"Our age, the age of democracy, is breaking. The flames of the Tuileries and the Palais Royal are the dawn of the proletariat. Everywhere the rule of the bourgeoisie will now come crashing down, or be dashed to pieces." (Marx Engels Collected Works, vol.6, p.558)

After a prolonged period of reaction with the defeat of the 1830 revolutions, the revolutionary masses of Paris, guns and red flags in hand, took to the streets, built barricades, drove out the monarchy and forced the Provisional government to declare a Republic. The worker Guibert burst into the Chamber brandishing a pistol, bringing the debate to an abrupt end with the words, "No more deputies, we are the masters."
It was the workers and the lower middle class that propelled the revolution forward. The bourgeoisie, who would eventually gain from the revolution, had not expected or wanted such an outcome. "We wanted to climb from step to step", said one, "but we were forced to leap over a whole flight of stairs."
Above all, the bourgeoisie feared the working class, who pushed forward their own independent class demands: the right to work, a minimum wage, shorter hours, pensions for the disabled, the creation of workshops, compulsory universal education, universal suffrage, progressive taxation, and other working-class demands. In turn, the working class did not trust the bourgeoisie deputies, who wanted an accommodation with the monarchy. As a result, on the walls of Paris revolutionary posters urged the masses: "Let us keep our arms!"
The new bourgeois republican administration was forced to bring in two socialists into the government, one of whom was Louis Blanc, a popular workers' leader. His role, however, became that of class conciliator, struggling to keep the revolutionary movement within acceptable legal limits. Under the pressure from the radical masses, some reforms were introduced, including the establishment of national workshops, in effect, poor law relief for the unemployed.
The elections to the Constituent Assembly were held in late April and recorded big gains for the bourgeois parties, largely due to the support of the conservative peasantry which made up 84% of the new electorate. The new government failed to address the plight of the workers and attempted to undermine the revolution by attacking the workers' leaders, particularly Blanqui and Cabet, as "communists". Trust in the bourgeois government melted away. It was becoming obvious that growing frustration was preparing a new showdown. The government's announced closure of the national workshops in Paris was the last straw. "The February revolution raised the problem of property and labour", stated the revolutionary Paul-Louis Deflotte. "This problem must be solved."
However, the government was making its own plans to teach the workers a lesson by sending them to the school of General Cavaignac who was brought back from butchering the peoples of Algiers, a faithful servant of the counter-revolution.
On 21^st June a decree was promoted, abolishing the national workshops. That day the workers of Paris arose again and threw up barricades throughout the capital. Flags were raised with the inscriptions: "Bread or Death!" and "Work or Death!" It was a purely workers' uprising, devoid of the carnival atmosphere of the February revolution. "The insurrection [is] growing into the greatest revolution that has ever taken place", wrote Marx, "into a revolution of the proletariat against the bourgeoisie." (MECW, vol.7, p.128, emphasis in original.)
The fighting was ferocious. The bourgeois counter-revolution gave no quarter. The workers were shot down like wild beasts. "The bourgeoisie, fully conscious of what it is doing, conducts a war of extermination against them", wrote Marx. He went on to quote a captain of the republican guard, describing events on 23^rd and 24^th June. "The cannon replied and until 9 o'clock windows and bricks were shattered by the thunder of artillery. The firing was terrible. Blood flowed in streams while at the same time a tremendous thunderstorm was raging. The cobblestones were red with blood as far as one could see... The number of dead is immense and the number of injured much greater still." (ibid, p.138)
The workers, on the other hand, fought for four solid days with unequalled bravery. "The courage with which the workers have fought is truly marvelous", wrote Marx. For three full days, 30,000 to 40,000 workers were able to hold their own against more than 80,000 soldiers and 100,000 men of the national guard, against grape-shot, shells, incendiary rockets and the glorious war experiences of generals who did not shrink from using these methods employed in Algeria! They have been crushed and in large part massacred. Their dead will not be accorded the honour that was bestowed upon the dead of July and February. History, however, will assign an entirely different place to them, the martyrs of the first decisive battle of the proletariat." (ibid, p.143)
After almost a week of battles and street-fighting, the full might of the state was used to crush the movement in blood. A frenzy of shootings and torture were on the order of the day. Some 15,000 were killed and wounded during and after the uprising. The ruling class exacted its revenge for the independent movement of the French workers. The workers' demand "contained a threat to the existing order of society; the workers who put it forward were still armed; therefore, the disarming of the workers was the first commandment for the bourgeois, who were at the helm of the state." (Engels)
The revolutions of 1848 were essentially bourgeois-democratic in the tasks they attempted to solve. Their fundamental aspect was the destruction of the old feudal structures and the creation of the independent nation state. While Marx and Engels hoped that this bourgeois revolution would be the immediate prelude to the proletarian revolution, given the weakness of the Communist League, they had no alternative but to form in Germany the extreme proletarian wing of the democratic movement. Its aim was to destroy absolutism and to unity the backward states into one democratic republic. This could only be brought about by revolutionary means. The daily paper, Neue Rheinische Zeitung, edited by Marx, was the organ of democratic revolution, but, as Engels wrote, of "a democracy which everywhere emphasized in every point the specific proletarian character." The paper, which had widespread support, became the true headquarters of the militant proletariat, the leading centre of the Communist League.
Not only did Marx and Engels fight for national independence for the oppressed nationalities, but put forward a genuinely internationalist approach. There were other nations oppressed by reactionary German states, such as the Poles in Prussia, the Italians, Czechs and others in Austria, as well as Russian Tsarism. At this time Tsarism was the most counter-revolutionary force in Europe in the same way that American imperialism is on a world stage today.
Marx and Engels sharply criticized the cowardly bourgeois leaders for failing to support the struggles of oppressed nations such as the Poles, Czechs, Hungarians and Italians against Prussian and Austrian despotism. The leadership of the revolution will fall to the working class. "... not the cowardly German burghers but the German workers; they will rise up, put an end to the whole filthy, muddled official German rule and with a radical revolution restore the honour of Germany", explained Engels. "Germany will liberate herself to the extent to which she sets free neighbouring nations."
Revolution broke out in Germany on 18^th March with fighting in nearly every town and barricades erected in Berlin and Vienna. The people won a series of democratic rights but control passed into the hands of the big bourgeoisie, which quickly betrayed the struggle.
It was out of these experiences that Marx and Engels were to raise the idea of permanent revolution. The bourgeoisie were more afraid of the working class than the forces of feudal despotism. They were to play an increasingly counter-revolutionary role. They were incapable of bringing about genuine national unification, as history proved. Marx and Engels put their confidence in the working class. They believed that a successful bourgeois-democratic revolution, under the leadership of the workers, would become the prologue of the proletarian revolution and the transformation of Europe. "Before reaction can be destroyed in Italy and Germany, it must be routed in France", explained Engels. "A democratic social republic must first be proclaimed in France and the French proletariat must first subjugate its bourgeoisie before a lasting victory of democracy is conceivable in Italy, Germany, Poland, Hungary and other countries." (ibid, p.403) Marx agreed: "The Hungarian shall not be free, nor the Poles, nor the Italians, as long as the work remains a slave."
The defeat of the 1848 revolutions removed any threat of proletarian revolution. The forces of capitalism were still maturing. It took a further 23 years before the glorious Paris Commune (the first workers' state in history) would place proletarian revolution once again on the agenda of the European continent.

https://www.marxist.com/1848-revolutions.htm

[acptulsa]

tl:dr? I'm happy to help. That whole cut and paste says not one damned thing about Mexico, Central America, or the Western Hemisphere.

In fact, it primarily reminds us all that socialism was created and popularized by Europeans who turn bright red when exposed to too much sunlight.

[Swordsmyth]

tl:dr? I'm happy to help. That whole cut and paste says not one damned thing about Mexico, Central America, or the Western Hemisphere.

In fact, it primarily reminds us all that socialism was created and popularized by Europeans who turn bright red when exposed to too much sunlight.

Socialism is much older than you give it credit for (think about the Jacobins for example) and the Mexican people are part of European culture.

[acptulsa]

Blsht , Illegals come here to collect welfare.

I posted a thread on it, yea, most collect welfare, when it runs out, maybe
some of them 'cut grass' as you say, but Christ , are you not being the racist you pretend
to hate?

Because I accurately identified two of the jobs it's easiest for undocumented workers to get?

Careful. The pot looks mighty silly calling the kettle black. The pot looks like a total ass calling the teapot black.

Socialism is much older than you give it credit for (think about the Jacobins for example) and the Mexican people are part of European culture.

Wait. You want to keep Mexicans out because they won't toe the line with western culture, but western culture is their own?

And you're actually claiming Mexico had a Socialist Party in 1848?

I call bullshyth.

[Swordsmyth]

Wait. You want to keep Mexicans out because they won't toe the line with western culture, but western culture is their own?

And you're actually claiming Mexico had a Socialist Party in 1848?

I call bullshyth.

Where did I say anything about "western culture", I want to keep almost everyone out because they won't toe the line with LIBERTY culture.

I didn't say they had a party called "The Socialist Party" I said they were socialists, here is another example (this time from the Americas):

First of all, it is merely an impression that Venezuela was indeed prosperous in a healthy way at some point in the past. The large-scale exploitation of its rich oil reserves, first discovered before the Spanish conquest, began only in 1910. Before, Simon Bolivar’s 1811 decree stated national ownership of all domestic mines and production was minimal at first.

More at: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...-oil-got-do-it


Mexico enacted many similar socialist policies early on.

[TheTexan]

At first I was wondering why border patrol would be stopping white people at all.

Then I realized - Mexicans could have snuck into their trunk without them knowing.

So really it's for their own protection.

[acptulsa]

Where did I say anything about "western culture", I want to keep almost everyone out because they won't toe the line with LIBERTY culture.

I didn't say they had a party called "The Socialist Party" I said they were socialists, here is another example (this time from the Americas):

First of all, it is merely an impression that Venezuela was indeed prosperous in a healthy way at some point in the past. The large-scale exploitation of its rich oil reserves, first discovered before the Spanish conquest, began only in 1910. Before, Simon Bolivar’s 1811 decree stated national ownership of all domestic mines and production was minimal at first.

More at: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...-oil-got-do-it


Mexico enacted many similar socialist policies early on.

So every banana republic dictator who seized a mine was a socialist?

That's amusing.

[Swordsmyth]

So every banana republic dictator who seized a mine was a socialist?

That's amusing.

So you don't think that nationalizing private property is socialist?

THAT is amusing.


Mexico and the other Latin American countries do not have and have not had liberty cultures with respect for property rights.

[acptulsa]

So you don't think that nationalizing private property is socialist?

THAT is amusing.


Mexico and the other Latin American countries do not have and have not had liberty cultures with respect for property rights.

Theft is theft. A socialist is a thief with an excuse. That does not make every thief a socialist.

If we were to reduce our level of discourse to that we'd never teach anyone anything. No wonder everyone but the most partisan Republicans scares the hell out of you.

[Swordsmyth]

Theft is theft. A socialist is a thief with an excuse. That does not make every thief a socialist.

If we were to reduce our level of discourse to that we'd never teach anyone anything. No wonder everyone but the most partisan Republicans scares the hell out of you.

The use of government to steal "on behalf of the people" is socialism and Latin American culture (along with most of the world) is full of it and has been for a long time.

Your attempts to deny socialism are pathetic.

[acptulsa]

The use of government to steal "on behalf of the people" is socialism and Latin American culture (along with most of the world) is full of it and has been for a long time.

Your attempts to deny socialism are pathetic.

So, history says socialism was invented by Marx and Engels. But Swordshyll says every king who ever collected a tax and claimed he was going to use the money for the benefit of the community since the beginning of time was socialist.

Gee, I wonder if switching to the History According to Swordshyll might make me look like an idiot? I don't think I'll find out.

[Swordsmyth]

So, history says socialism was invented by Marx and Engels. But Swordshyll says every king who ever collected a tax and claimed he was going to use the money for the benefit of the community since the beginning of time was socialist.

Gee, I wonder if switching to the History According to Swordshyll might make me look like an idiot? I don't think I'll find out.

Marx and Engels may have expounded and popularized it as a specific theory but the idea is timeless and the idea is what is important.
We don't want to prevent it here because Marx and Engels get credit for "inventing" it, we want to prevent it here because it is wrong.
In order to prevent it here we must recognize that some cultures embrace it and if we allow many people from those cultures to come here they will impose it on us.

[Stratovarious]

....