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Thread: Yes Rand Paul, there is an emergency at our border!

  1. #211
    Coulter crosses the line again: "The Only National Emergency Is That Our President Is An Idiot"

    She had recently insulted sitting POTUS by calling his presidency a "scam" and accusing him of nepotism, corruption etc. Previously some critics had also hinted about about corruption citing his son-in-law's connections in Israel and some Israeli companies profiting from US border contracts. But no credible proof has been reported in MSM.



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  3. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Yeah, go cry to the republicans up in the White House. Let's see if it's such an emergency that they'll pen an EO to end incentives, even temporarily. I'm certain every republican would be on board with that, and it would not oppose the constitution or screw with peoples property.

    Or better yet, End Common Core/FedDeptEd so that they STOP molding socialist/statist minds - for National Security sake. If they do those things, maybe I'll buy it. Until then, wah wah wah.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    "We can't get enough water to put out the fire"
    "Throw gasoline on it instead then"
    If we burn it all down do you think we will be able to rebuild a free society with millions of communists added to the native left and the weak and foolish right?
    Would a Constitutional convention today produce anything like what we have or the Articles of Confederation?
    Or would we end up with something more like the Soviet Constitution?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    They say the numbers have not been increasing.
    They are lying, just like when they all lied and said there were only 10 Million.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Their numbers are real yet they are bogus? Which is it? Either you trust their figures or you don't.
    The numbers are bogus on the liberal side, there are more illegals here than they admit, there are more coming than they admit and they commit more crimes than they admit.
    And the political shift to communism that they cause is more than enough to keep them out
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They are lying, just like when they all lied and said there were only 10 Million.


    The numbers are bogus on the liberal side, there are more illegals here than they admit, there are more coming than they admit and they commit more crimes than they admit.
    And the political shift to communism that they cause is more than enough to keep them out
    So your own source is lying. I guess you are lying too then. You lose.


    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    "Yeah, I have to say these guys(trolls) are pretty sharp. Sort of good to get a challenge and sharpen your thoughts." NorthCarolinaLiberty

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  6. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    So your own source is lying. I guess you are lying too then. You lose.
    They are lying on the low side, they always do.

    You lose.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Natural Incentive = the wealth that liberty creates. And you OPPOSE that??????

    Sword gives you another cogent and concise example of ''Natural Incentives'' , which obviously
    you 'get' , then you immediately turn it into an argument.

    :facepalm: oo:



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  9. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    According to the US Constitution, only Congress has the power to allocate money. .

    And Congress has in fact authorize the president to reallocate certain available funds in the event of a declared emergency. see: 10 U.S. Code 2808 and 33 U.S. Code 2293

    JWK

    It was February of 2019 when anongoing invasion of America’s borders swelled to tens of thousands a month, nota shot was fired to defend the borders of the United States, and America’s domesticenemies, socialists, communists andanarchists in Congress, pushed forward with their attempt to continue theinvasion in hopes of conquering a prosperous and freedom loving people.

  10. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    So your own source is lying. I guess you are lying too then. You lose.
    asylum

    noun asy·​lum | \ ə-ˈsī-ləm


    \

    Definition of asylum

    1 : an inviolable place of refuge and protection giving shelter to criminals and debtors : sanctuary

    2 : a place of retreat and security : shelter

    3a : the protection or security afforded by an asylum : refuge
    b : protection from arrest and extradition given especially to political refugees by a nation or by an embassy or other agency enjoying freedom from what is required by law for most people

    4 somewhat old-fashioned : an institution providing care and protection to needy individuals (such as the infirm or destitute) and especially the mentally ill

  11. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    The topic is Illegal Aliens . . .
    And especially with regard to it being a national emergency.


    JWK

    Border patrol agents apprehended more than 100,000 people trying to enter the country illegally in just October and November of last year. LINK

  12. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I would secure the border in a different manner but I am not in charge, the wall is better than nothing.
    I would also take away the Presedent's "emergency" powers in our current system because they lack anything to balance them but as long as Congress doesn't pass a law to take them away I support Trump using them to protect the states from invasion as the Constitution mandates.
    Article 4, Section 4.

    The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.



    I wonder if members of Congress who obstruct and refuse to protect a specific State against the ongoing invasion, can be individually sued for damages inflicted upon their citizens by illegal immigration.


    JWK

    Illegal immigration is now costing American citizens over $18 billion a year in healthcare costs alone! Far more than the measly $5.7 billion asked for to build a wall! LINK

  13. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    75k last month alone. The ones that were caught. No worries. Life's good. End entitlements or something.
    I can imagine the Roman Senate having similar useless and pointless philosophical arguments even as they were getting overrun by Visigoths and Vandals.

  14. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    Article 4, Section 4.

    The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.



    I wonder if members of Congress who obstruct and refuse to protect a specific State against the ongoing invasion, can be individually sued for damages inflicted upon their citizens by illegal immigration.


    JWK

    Illegal immigration is now costing American citizens over $18 billion a year in healthcare costs alone! Far more than the measly $5.7 billion asked for to build a wall! LINK
    But JW, The Open Borders clan wants warm fuzzies for everyone, even MS13.
    I'm sure 80% of the worlds population would love to immigrate here, and would do so illegally , given
    the opportunity.

  15. #223

    The social and economic impact of illegal immigration

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    That is hyperbole. Fear mongering. Vote for bigger government! We will protect you from the hordes! Give up freedoms so we can protect your freedoms!
    Hyperbole? There is a very real and devastating impact from illegal immigration.

    Let us take a look at the destructive social and economic consequences in just one county in California inflicted upon its citizens in 1995 when this massive invasion of our borders began to accelerate. CLICK HERE and scroll to page 93 for testimony given by JOAN ZINSER before the COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, DECEMBER 13, 1995

    Good morning Chairman Smith and other honorable members of the Subcommittee on Immigration and Claims. I am Joan Zinser, Deputy Director of the San Diego County Department of Social Services. I direct the department's Income Maintenance Bureau, which has responsibility for AFDC, Food Stamps and Medicaid eligibility determinations. I am here today to tell you about the effects of illegal immigration on the County's assistance programs, and to present information regarding impacts on other county-funded services.

    Impacts on San Diego County

    In 1993, illegal aliens in San Diego County were estimated to be 7.9% of the population, or a total of almost 220,000 illegal aliens in a county with a population of slightly over 2 1/2 million. A 1993 Calffornia State Senate report estimated that the State, local governments - primarily the County - and schools incurred $304 million in costs to provide services to illegal aliens. These costs were offset by only $60 million in taxes generated by illegal aliens - leaving a net impact of $244 million.

    Welfare Costs.

    When a child is a US citizen, AFDC can be granted for the child but not the parent, if the parent is an undocumented immigrant. In 1992 there were 6,414 children born to undocumented immigrant parents in San Diego County hospitals. Each year, the illegal alien parents of nearly 2000 "citizen children" apply for and receive AFDC in San Diego County. The cumulative total of these "citizen child" cases continues to rise each year.

    Public assistance is intended to support the citizen child, but is paid to the illegal alien parent and is, no doubt, used by the parent to support the entire family. Costs for providing AFDC to "citizen children" cases in San Diego totaled $37 million in 1993 for approximately 5430 AFDC cases.

    Additional costs are incurred in Child Welfare Services. Combining costs for Out-of-Home and Family Maintenance services to families of illegal aliens results in an additional cost of $1.7 million.

    Medicaid and Other Health-Related- Costs.

    Medicaid services are an increasingly large portion of the costs involved in illegal immigration. In 1992, Medicaid paid for 6,414 births illegal alien mothers. Although studies have shown that illegal aliens use fewer Medicaid services than do the age-equivalent members of the general population, significant costs remain. Delivery costs are greater for babies with mothers lacking adequate prenatal care and many medical conditions are treated more cost-effectively in their early stages. Infectious diseases are also a major concern of the County. San Diego County has historically carried large costs because of illegal aliens with these problems. Costs associated with providing emergency and pregnancy related needs to illegal aliens are paid for under "restricted Medi-Cal benefits." During the 1992 calendar year, an estimated $37 million was paid for "restricted Medi-Cal benefits." Other costs, including uncompensated care in hospitals, community clinics, and other health services elevated the 1993 total costs to over $50 million.

    Criminal justice.

    A recent 90-day pilot project involved having INS Agents present in the county jails to interview those suspected of being an undocumented immigrant. Approximately 20% of the persons booked into the jails during that pilot were identified as being illegal aliens. With annual bookings of approximatel 105,000 persons a year, it is estimated that up to 21,000 were illegal aliens.



    According to the San Diego County District Attorney, 8,521 felony crimes were committed by illegal aliens between 1987 and 1992. Illegal aliens commit an estimated 22% of felony crimes committed in the county. The number of misdemeanors committed during the same period in San Diego County by illegal aliens is estimated to be 17,000. In 1993, approximately 15. 1 % of the costs -accrued in dealing with crimes were spent on illegal aliens. Costs for illegal aliens to the legal system totaled $151 million in the County of San Diego for 1993.



    Education.

    Recently, a video of students crossing the border and getting on a school bus in San Diego County in order to receive free education was shown nationwide. Locally, we have worked to make sure that this situation does not recur, but education of the children of illegal aliens is also a significant CDSt. It is estimated that $60 million was spent in San Diego County in 1993 for education of illegal aliens.

    ________

    And, more recently see:

    Illegal aliens cost California billions

    2004

    ”Illegal immigration costs the taxpayers of California — which has the highest number of illegal aliens nationwide — $10.5 billion a year for education, health care and incarceration, according to a study released yesterday.”

    Also see: Testimony 51 Florida Hospitals in trouble due to illegal aliens expenses:

    Jun 10, 2008

    ”No need to editorialize. Here is a sampling of the sort of facts the politicians and pro-illegal lobby want you to ignore, yet expect you to continue to bear the burden of. Is it any wonder scores of hospitals in border states and elsewhere have shut down or closed their ER units?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

    Then take a look at Texas Faces Rising Cost For Illegal Immigrant Care

    Aug 19, 2010

    Texas spent at least $250 million in the past year for medical care and imprisonment of illegal immigrants and other non-citizens.

    And how about this: The Fiscal Cost of Unlawful Immigrants and Amnesty to the U.S. Taxpayer

    May 6, 2013

    ”In 2010, the average unlawful immigrant household received around $24,721 in government benefits and services while paying some $10,334 in taxes. This generated an average annual fiscal deficit (benefits received minus taxes paid) of around $14,387 per household. This cost had to be borne by U.S. taxpayers. Amnesty would provide unlawful households with access to over 80 means-tested welfare programs, Obamacare, Social Security, and Medicare. The fiscal deficit for each household would soar.”

    And how about the tens of thousands of criminal aliens released into our nation’s population? See: Judicial Watch: 165,900 Criminal Aliens into US Population Through April 2014

    Mar 2015

    ”Nearly 166,000 convicted criminal illegal aliens were released by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) as of April, 2014. This is the analysis of 76 pages of DHS documents obtained by Judicial Watch via Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests. The criminal illegal aliens include rapists, murderers and kidnappers.”


    - - -


    There comes a time when the evidence concerning the general welfare of the United States can no longer be ignored, at least not by those who are deeply concerned about the well being of the United States.



    JWK





    Illegal immigration is now costing American citizens over $18 billion a year in healthcare costs alone! Far more than the measly $5.7 billion asked for to build a wall! LINK

  16. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    Illegal immigration is now costing American citizens over $18 billion a year in healthcare costs alone! Far more than the measly $5.7 billion asked for to build a wall![url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2018/02/26/how-american-citizens-finance-health-care-for-undocumented-immigrants/#193737f912c4[/url]
    From the article:

    So even though the dollar stakes are quite small in a federal budget that will spend $4 trillion in the fiscal year that just started, I believe citizens and federal policymakers should stop pressing the Easy button and seriously ponder four important principled arguments against federal tax financing of health care for unauthorized immigrants:

    •Federal funding is unnecessary
    •Federal funding is inefficient
    •Federal funding is unconstitutional
    •Federal funding is immoral

    Building a wall ignores the above but adds more cost in building, maintenance, hiring more police state, affects a $1B per day economy and over 3 million private/business property rights.


    Address the above bullet points first by stoke of a little ball-point pen and then go from there.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”



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  18. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    From the article:




    Building a wall ignores the above but adds more cost in building, maintenance, hiring more police state, affects a $1B per day economy and over 3 million private/business property rights.


    Address the above bullet points first by stoke of a little ball-point pen and then go from there.

    Address the issue of 'Natural Incentives' that you fully understand one minute, and pretend to not to the
    next., then ''go from there''


    :facepalm:

  19. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    Address the issue of 'Natural Incentives' that you fully understand one minute, and pretend to not to the
    next., then ''go from there''


    :facepalm:

    Strat, what are you looking for precisely? Natural Incentives (as SS defined), Natural Rights, Property Rights, far less government, all of which I advocate
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

  20. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Strat, what are you looking for precisely? Natural Incentives (as SS defined), Natural Rights, Property Rights, far less government, all of which I advocate
    And that is precisely the problem.

    You two are talking past each other.

    [LIBEL] In Strat's mind, the fact that those things will continue to motivate immigrants to come here even without a taxpayer funded safety net for them is a bad thing. That it is a bad thing is so obvious to him that he just takes it for granted. This dogma needs no defense. He wants to know how you would stop them from coming here in pursuit of such incentives as you list, and doesn't understand how you could possibly be fine with it. [/LIBEL]

    Meanwhile, when he asks you how you propose getting rid of those natural incentives, you're here saying, "Why in the world would I want to do that?" You wonder if you're misunderstanding him, and he just needs to explain his position more clearly (which, generally speaking, he does). But no, this time you understand him just fine. He really does think what it sounds like he thinks.

    And I'll go out on a limb and say that most other immigration restrictionists may not be as overt about it. But they're coming from pretty close to the same place he is.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 03-07-2019 at 08:25 AM.

  21. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Strat, what are you looking for precisely? Natural Incentives (as SS defined), Natural Rights, Property Rights, far less government, all of which I advocate
    ha ha, and you don't see how cutting welfare isn't enough......

  22. #229
    Natural incentives are not a bad thing; they're a great thing! And the people who respond to natural incentives shouldn't be of concern to anyone except a xenophobic racist or a government tool. If immigrants respond to natural incentives only, then all of the collectivist problems that the government uses to instill fear in people disappears.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  23. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Natural incentives are not a bad thing; they're a great thing! And the people who respond to natural incentives shouldn't be of concern to anyone except a xenophobic racist or a government tool. If immigrants respond to natural incentives only, then all of the collectivist problems that the government uses to instill fear in people disappears.
    "You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to CaptUSA again."

  24. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    I can imagine the Roman Senate having similar useless and pointless philosophical arguments even as they were getting overrun by Visigoths and Vandals.
    My first question is whether or not your model of the end of the Roman Empire has any basis in reality. Did it really end because of lax immigration controls? Really?

    My skepticism of that could be misguided. And if it is, then my next question would be why that's supposed to be a bad thing.

    You are talking about the Roman Empire.

    It used to be that around here people could mention empires and not need to explain that they were something we all opposed.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 03-07-2019 at 08:50 AM.

  25. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Natural incentives are not a bad thing; they're a great thing! And the people who respond to natural incentives shouldn't be of concern to anyone except a xenophobic racist or a government tool. If immigrants respond to natural incentives only, then all of the collectivist problems that the government uses to instill fear in people disappears.
    Well said +rep
    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.



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  27. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    My first question is whether or not your model of the end of the Roman empire has any basis in reality. Did it really end because of lax immigration controls? Really?

    My skepticism of that could be misguided. And if it is, then my next question would be why that's supposed to be a bad thing.

    You are talking about the Roman Empire.

    It used to be that around here people could mention empires and not need to explain that they were something we all opposed.
    There was a time people on this site were so anti statist that they rejected drunk driving laws. Now they seem to be fighting for the preservation of the empire. How times have changed

    Good video about the fall of Rome. And as you might have guessed, it did not fall because of unarmed migrants crossed their borders.

    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  28. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Natural incentives are not a bad thing; they're a great thing! And the people who respond to natural incentives shouldn't be of concern to anyone except a xenophobic racist or a government tool. If immigrants respond to natural incentives only, then all of the collectivist problems that the government uses to instill fear in people disappears.
    Right on.
    I do not consent.

  29. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Natural incentives are not a bad thing; they're a great thing! And the people who respond to natural incentives shouldn't be of concern to anyone except a xenophobic racist or a government tool. If immigrants respond to natural incentives only, then all of the collectivist problems that the government uses to instill fear in people disappears.
    Anyone that gives the excuse of 'Natural Incentives' as a Right to illegally enter the US are rapists and child molesters.

  30. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    Anyone that gives the excuse of 'Natural Incentives' as a Right to illegally enter the US are rapists and child molesters.
    That one fell flat

    You can maintain power over people, as long as you give them something. Rob a man of everything, and that man will no longer be in your power. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Trust principles; not people.
    My Che avatar is my unique way of giving a big middle finger to the, the neocons, the globalists, imperialists and most importantly to the left and right political establishment who hate his guts till this day. My admiration for him ends where his anti imperialist pro communism ideology starts.

  31. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    Anyone that gives the excuse of 'Natural Incentives' as a Right to illegally enter the US are rapists and child molesters.
    What I would propose (and I suspect others here whose support of letting people come to America in pursuit of those natural incentives you find so offensive) is not to let those who come here for those things do so illegally, but to let them do it legally by changing the law so that they can. Then it wouldn't be illegal immigration any more.

    I suspect, though, that you would then find that, even if it's not illegal immigration, you would still oppose it, and you would want those laws restricting it back. Because it isn't only illegal immigration that you oppose.

  32. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    What I would propose (and I suspect others here whose support of letting people come to America in pursuit of those natural incentives you find so offensive) is not to let those who come here for those things do so illegally, but to let them do it legally by changing the law so that they can. Then it wouldn't be illegal immigration any more.

    I suspect, though, that you would then find that, even if it's not illegal immigration, you would still oppose it, and you would want those laws restricting it back. Because it isn't only illegal immigration that you oppose.
    Open Borers, ha ha ahaaa.

  33. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    Anyone that gives the excuse of 'Natural Incentives' as a Right to illegally enter the US are rapists and child molesters.

    Ok, I get it now. You're just trolling a la TheTexan. Man, you really had me going there for a while. Bravo!
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  34. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    That one fell flat

    ...
    Apparently not.



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