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Thread: IS IT GAME OVER FOR BITCOIN?

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul799 View Post
    No. I would want to pick a serious gold-backed stablecoin project
    why would I want that? I would have to trust the bank holding the gold to be honest.

    History showed us that this is not possible. Human nature prevents it. Crypto uses math nature to prevent fraud.

    Bitcoin is the most elegant way to link math and the real world(energy/electricity) through the process of mining.



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul799 View Post
    No. I would want to pick a serious gold-backed stablecoin project

    Among institutionals (enterprises, fonds, banks, multinationals, governments, sovereign fonds etc.) there is as much as zero interest in Bitcoin, both as a investment and as a means of payment or value transfering.
    They are interested in Stablecoins.

    Folks living in countries with currencies subject to depreciation.
    No interest in Bitcoin.
    They want Stablecoins.

    Bitcoin right now is the one only in the crypto-sphere, among crypto-enthusiasts.
    Probably it will stay that way. A niche role
    What happens when a government comes in and confiscates the gold that the crypto is backed by? Or what if the people who run the thing steal the gold or misrepresent the holdings?

    Major weakness.

    I would love to see gold backed crypto, I just don't think it is a good idea to put all the eggs in that basket.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  4. #63
    @Mordan, @dannno,
    I agree with you about Bitcoin needing less trust that a gold-backed stablecoin.
    I'd only correct you, just to safe face, when you talk about banks holding the metals.
    It doesn't need to be a bank.


    The second point is, what if confiscation.
    This danger exists for bitcoin too.
    What if Govs declare trading of bitcoin illegal. Buying with bitcoin is illegal, just the act of offering bitcoin in exchange of good or services is illegal.
    Accepting bitcoins as a means of payment is illegal. Just showing the readiness of accepting bitcoins to that purpose is illegal.
    That would make bitcoins as a currency, useless.


    "What happens when a government comes in and confiscates the gold that the crypto is backed by?"
    If the metal is managed by an organisation with multiple vaults around the world, in this case they would move the metals out of the country and into a vault in another country.
    For example, in case of the gold-backed stablecoin Kinesis, the organisation managing the metals is the Allocated Bullion Exchange, with vaults in 7 locations around the world.
    I like their inventory management, particularly the Inspection and Audit Section
    https://abx.com/technology-services/storage-logistics/

    But I don't trust Kinesis because of that. Basically I trust them because among their Advisers there is Andrew Maguire, who was a whistleblower at the CFTC during the investigation about the manipulation of the gold and silver market.

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul799 View Post
    @Mordan, @dannno,
    I agree with you about Bitcoin needing less trust that a gold-backed stablecoin.
    I'd only correct you, just to safe face, when you talk about banks holding the metals.
    It doesn't need to be a bank.


    The second point is, what if confiscation.
    This danger exists for bitcoin too.
    What if Govs declare trading of bitcoin illegal. Buying with bitcoin is illegal, just the act of offering bitcoin in exchange of good or services is illegal.
    Accepting bitcoins as a means of payment is illegal. Just showing the readiness of accepting bitcoins to that purpose is illegal.
    That would make bitcoins as a currency, useless.


    "What happens when a government comes in and confiscates the gold that the crypto is backed by?"
    If the metal is managed by an organisation with multiple vaults around the world, in this case they would move the metals out of the country and into a vault in another country.
    For example, in case of the gold-backed stablecoin Kinesis, the organisation managing the metals is the Allocated Bullion Exchange, with vaults in 7 locations around the world.
    I like their inventory management, particularly the Inspection and Audit Section
    https://abx.com/technology-services/storage-logistics/

    But I don't trust Kinesis because of that. Basically I trust them because among their Advisers there is Andrew Maguire, who was a whistleblower at the CFTC during the investigation about the manipulation of the gold and silver market.

    The difference is that gold must be held at a physical location and the enforcement arm of the government can easily come take it. Having multiple, secure locations is a good protection, and I still support people who want to try that. It's simply risky.

    Bitcoin cannot just be taken like gold, in a physical sense. They need the keys and stuff.

    The government can ban bitcoin, but how would they enforce it? There are also a lot of governments around the world. They would all have to ban it and enforce it.. and when that happens, you inevitably get bubbles that pop up where it isn't being enforced and those people will say to themselves, "hey, I wonder why all these governments are being oppressive and banning bitcoin?" They will try it, it will work well, they will prosper and other places will see the example and how great it is working and they will elect people to government who will allow bitcoin. Then as it becomes more apparent at how good it is, countries that have a tougher ban in place will have to fight harder, but they will have a good reason to.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  7. #65

    I traded in my bitcoins

    Quote Originally Posted by Smaulgld View Post
    Does an 80% price drop spell the end of Bitcoin?


    https://smaulgld.com/is-it-game-over-for-bitcoin/


    I used my bitcoins to buy gold from Bullion Exchanges. If you think about it, gold is always the better investment. https://bullionexchanges.com/

  8. #66
    @dannno,
    I agree with everything you say.

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul799 View Post
    @Mordan, @dannno,

    The second point is, what if confiscation.
    This danger exists for bitcoin too.
    What if Govs declare trading of bitcoin illegal. Buying with bitcoin is illegal, just the act of offering bitcoin in exchange of good or services is illegal.
    Accepting bitcoins as a means of payment is illegal. Just showing the readiness of accepting bitcoins to that purpose is illegal.
    That would make bitcoins as a currency, useless.
    Bitcoin is information on a publicly shared ledger. Good luck making that illegal at the Supreme Court Level. Bitcoin is akin to language, protected by the 1st amendement.

    its just that we decided those strings of characters on that ledger are valuable. Books are valuable too :0

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordan View Post
    Bitcoin is information on a publicly shared ledger. Good luck making that illegal at the Supreme Court Level. Bitcoin is akin to language, protected by the 1st amendement.
    @Mordan,
    I wasn't talking about making Bitcoin illegal.
    I was talking about making its use as a currency illegal.
    (Like they are doing currently in China, for example: trading is allowed, buying goods and services with it no.)

    I wasn't talking about the USA, I was talking about Governments, plural.

    USA: authorities have 1000 ways to prevent Bitcoin to become a viable widespread currency without having to make it illegal, for example through tax laws, so the 1st amendment doesn't matter

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul799 View Post
    @Mordan,
    I wasn't talking about making Bitcoin illegal.
    I was talking about making its use as a currency illegal.
    (Like they are doing currently in China, for example: trading is allowed, buying goods and services with it no.)

    I wasn't talking about the USA, I was talking about Governments, plural.

    USA: authorities have 1000 ways to prevent Bitcoin to become a viable widespread currency without having to make it illegal, for example through tax laws, so the 1st amendment doesn't matter
    So barter is illegal?

    Maybe they can craft a law. But I doubt it. It is still the land of the free.

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Smaulgld View Post
    Does an 80% price drop spell the end of Bitcoin?


    https://3commas.io/
    As for me, Bitcoin is more then real currency with the great development. You can work here and get good income if you are aware on the area. Moreover, if you use special tools for your work, your income will increase more and more.

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul799 View Post
    The second point is, what if confiscation.
    This danger exists for bitcoin too.
    What if Govs declare trading of bitcoin illegal. Buying with bitcoin is illegal, just the act of offering bitcoin in exchange of good or services is illegal.
    Accepting bitcoins as a means of payment is illegal. Just showing the readiness of accepting bitcoins to that purpose is illegal.
    That would make bitcoins as a currency, useless.
    Exactly

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Bitcoin cannot just be taken like gold, in a physical sense.
    There's no need to take bitcoin; just control the things which one can buy with bitcoin.

    For physical goods, which make up the vast majority of all goods, that's relatively easy to do.

    Without the state's permission, bitcoin won't survive outside some niche markets, mostly for non-physical goods like music files.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    There's no need to take bitcoin; just control the things which one can buy with bitcoin.

    For physical goods, which make up the vast majority of all goods, that's relatively easy to do.

    Without the state's permission, bitcoin won't survive outside some niche markets, mostly for non-physical goods like music files.
    The government can't confiscate bitcoin.. How do you imagine that mechanism would work??

    As for not allowing it's use, how many 'states' are there (not US states, like, all states)?

    Do you know how those balloons work that they make different animals with?

    Yes, a single government, or multiple governments can make it difficult to use bitcoin. But what does that do? It shows people that the establishment doesn't want it, and puts more pressure in other areas of use (both geographically and otherwise)

    I have no idea why you think bitcoin is going to be useful for buying music files.. People transfer digital assets all the time for pretty much everything. Crypto is the future, and right now bitcoin is digital gold.
    Last edited by dannno; 06-22-2019 at 10:53 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    The government can't confiscate bitcoin.. How do you imagine that mechanism would work??
    I just said in the post you're quoting that they don't need to confiscate bitcoin.

    Yes, a single government, or multiple governments can make it difficult to use bitcoin. But what does that do?
    Make bitcoin considerably less useful as a medium of exchange

    I have no idea why you think bitcoin is going to be useful for buying music files..
    Assuming the anonymizing technology works, the weakness (as to preventing detection) lies in the physical supply chain for the goods.

    Clandestinely selling cars, for example, requires warehouses, lots, in-person delivery or pick-up, etc.

    This isn't a problem for MP3s or other non-physical goods.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I just said in the post you're quoting that they don't need to confiscate bitcoin.



    Make bitcoin considerably less useful as a medium of exchange



    Assuming the anonymizing technology works, the weakness (as to preventing detection) lies in the physical supply chain for the goods.

    Clandestinely selling cars, for example, requires warehouses, lots, in-person delivery or pick-up, etc.

    This isn't a problem for MP3s or other non-physical goods.
    So you ignore the main crux of the argument and argue against everything else, out of context... good job

    Crypto isn't just available in the US, it's available globally. Knock it down in one place, it's going to be that much more attractive for people in other places.. and the place where they cracked down as well, in the longrun.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    So you ignore the main crux of the argument and argue against everything else, out of context... good job
    ...?

    What did I ignore or take out of context?
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    ...?

    What did I ignore or take out of context?
    Are you Britney Spears?

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post

    Crypto isn't just available in the US, it's available globally. Knock it down in one place, it's going to be that much more attractive for people in other places.. and the place where they cracked down as well, in the longrun.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Crypto isn't just available in the US, it's available globally. Knock it down in one place, it's going to be that much more attractive for people in other places.. and the place where they cracked down as well, in the longrun.
    Okay, and?

    As I said in my original response, outlawing bitcoin anywhere will make bitcoin less valuable.

    Above you claim that outlawing bitcoin would be good for bitcoin, because magic.

    Suffice it to say, I disagree (as should have been obvious).
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Okay, and?

    As I said in my original response, outlawing bitcoin anywhere will make bitcoin less valuable.

    Above you claim that outlawing bitcoin would be good for bitcoin, because magic.

    Suffice it to say, I disagree (as should have been obvious).
    Uh, no, it makes it more valuable... because, perception.. and geography.. and the sheer magnitude of everywhere else in the world that didn't do it that day..
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Uh, no, it makes it more valuable... because, perception.. and geography.. and the sheer magnitude of everywhere else in the world that didn't do it that day..
    The value of a currency is determined by what can be bought with it.

    This is why, for example, it would be very bad news for the dollar if it were dropped by the foreign countries that currently use it.

    The same applies to bitcoin.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The value of a currency is determined by what can be bought with it.
    No, it's determined by the market.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    No, it's determined by the market.
    Of course, but we can make some pretty sound predictions about how market actors are likely to behave.

    For instance, if I print up some r3v bucks, exchangeable only for stuff in my refrigerator, odds are very few people are going to buy them.

    Once my refrigerator is empty, odds are no one is going to buy them.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Of course, but we can make some pretty sound predictions about how market actors are likely to behave.

    For instance, if I print up some r3v bucks, exchangeable only for stuff in my refrigerator, odds are very few people are going to buy them.

    Once my refrigerator is empty, odds are no one is going to buy them.
    That is a horrible analogy.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    That is a horrible analogy.
    Rev 3.0 hardware is overheating. The level of insanity of his posts went significantly up just recently.

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The value of a currency is determined by what can be bought with it.
    Good remark r3, this is the point.

    The original thesis was, Govs can't confiscate bitcoin, as if this were an advantage of Btc vs. gold.

    The question: can the Gov confiscate Btc? is meaningless.
    The main question is: can the Gov prevent Btc from being used?

    This is the main question because preventing Btc from being used in order to buy things brings out the same results as of confiscating it.

    There is x.
    The value of x consists in deploying it in order to reach a goal.
    Question: Can the Gov confiscate x?
    Who cares.
    This is a meaningless question.
    The main question is, can the Gov block its deployment? as in: "You can keep your x at home. No problem. Just don't use it.")
    If the Gov can block its deployment, x becomes useless.

    Some people probably feel that keeping a non-confiscated but deployment-blocked, valueless x is better than having it confiscated ("I don't care if I can't use it. It's still mine and I can keep it"), but we are talking about the role of Btc and gold within the financial system, not about individual feelings.

    Comparing Btc with gold, we were comparing their potential role as currencies.

    Gold can become valueless as currency, if the Gov decide to (e.g. through confiscation).
    Bitcoin can become valueless as currency, if the Gov decide to (e.g. through declaring its deployment illegal).

    When you compare Btc vs. gold as money, the main question is if the Gov can block them from being currencies, not if the Gov can confiscate them.

    So, can the Gov confiscate gold?
    Yes.
    Can the Gov confiscate Btc?
    No.
    Does that matter in comparing Btc and gold as potential currencies?
    No.

    In comparing Btc and gold, what matters then?
    What matters is the possibility of the Gov to block them from being deployed as currencies.
    Under this perspective, is Btc better than gold?
    No
    Why not?
    I give up


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