Should College be Free or at Some Nominal Cost?

[James_Madison_Lives]

Everyone knows you don't value things that are free to you as much as if you had to put something into it, even a little. If you pay for a bike with your newspaper route money you spend your time shining it and acting as if it were your baby. Your parents are rich and give you bikes who gives a crap, you trash it.

I disagree with Bernie Sanders that college should be free, but i do believe it should be lower cost, and that kids 23 should not start life 80 grand in debt, like, that's what med school used to be. A year at Yale (JUST UNDERGRAD!) just topped 70 grand!

Is there a compromise position, or are things fine just the way they are?

[acptulsa]

Government guaranteed student loans are corporate welfare for banksters and the death of sanity in college pricing. Eliminate that and colleges will figure out how to provide affordable educations again.

It was once possible to work one's way through college. And then we heard those dreaded words: We're from the government and we're here to help.

[Anti Federalist]

Learn a skilled trade or craft.

College today is useless sinkhole of debt, Marxism and SJWarriorism.

Avoid it all costs

[oyarde]

Mostly it should be not at all .

[Superfluous Man]

Get government out of the picture. Eliminate all taxpayer funding of college, including loans. Eliminate all regulations. Eliminate targeted tax breaks for it and replace them with across the board tax cuts.

Do those things, and not only will college get cheaper, but all sorts of innovative alternatives to college will emerge in a marketplace of options out of which the winning educational models will provide better results than college--better, as determined by the people buying the product.

[specsaregood]

We already have affordable college. It is called community college; where nearly anybody should be able to pay it off while working and attending school.
And many states already have scholarship programs where if you graduate from a state community college with a good GPA, you can get an inexpensive ride to a 4year state school.


But that isn't what "they" want. They want a free ride to a party for 4 years.

[oyarde]

My advice is get a job slackers .

[James_Madison_Lives]

We already have affordable college. It is called community college; where nearly anybody should be able to pay it off while working and attending school.
And many states already have scholarship programs where if you graduate from a state community college with a good GPA, you can get an inexpensive ride to a 4year state school.


But that isn't what "they" want. They want a free ride to a party for 4 years.

Aren't community colleges socialism?

[acptulsa]

Aren't community colleges socialism?

At least they don't violate the Tenth Amendment the way the federal Serf--er, I mean Student Loan Program does.

[James_Madison_Lives]

At least they don't violate the Tenth Amendment the way the federal Serf--er, I mean Student Loan Program does.

The government owns the means of production (the colleges, product: education,) pays the teachers. That is textbook socialism. Further, community colleges only two year. The ideological purist here against "socialism" who attack AOC would have to be in favor of closing all state college and university systems.

[acptulsa]

The government owns the means of production (the colleges, product: education,) pays the teachers. That is textbook socialism. Further, community colleges only two year. The ideological purist here against "socialism" who attack AOC would have to be in favor of closing all state college and university systems.

That's nice. The major problems with runaway costs and student indentured servitude still trace back to Washington, D.C.

[Philhelm]

If government stepped aside, student loans would be more difficult to obtain and tuition costs would reduce. In addition, with fewer college degrees in circulation, employers would not always be able to demand a degree for many positions that really don't need them. However, we would also need to curb the H-1B (and related) problem so that employers won't decide to simply import people with degrees for this to work.

[Krugminator2]

I disagree with Bernie Sanders that college should be free, but i do believe it should be lower cost, and that kids 23 should not start life 80 grand in debt, like, that's what med school used to be. A year at Yale (JUST UNDERGRAD!) just topped 70 grand!

Is there a compromise position, or are things fine just the way they are?

1. Education is expensive because the cost is divorced from the user. Subsidized student loans are the primary driver of cost. At some point the education tuition bubble will pop. The cost isn't going to continue to outpace inflation forever.

2. Most people don't pay 70k a year to attend Yale unless you got in because your parents donated money. Most private schools have a retail sticker price and it is reduced for all sorts of reasons. They do this as a way of maximizing revenue because there are some people who will be willing/able to pay it. And most of the people who attend Yale have substantial outside scholarships.

Learn a skilled trade or craft.

College today is useless sinkhole of debt, Marxism and SJWarriorism.

Avoid it all costs

I think that is true of every humanities degree and liberal arts degree.

But engineering, Biz schools, pre-med/Chemistry/Biology, physics, and math will always have value. And even though most professors are liberal, most that teach real subjects aren't crazy like in the humanities.

[James_Madison_Lives]

If government stepped aside, student loans would be more difficult to obtain and tuition costs would reduce. In addition, with fewer college degrees in circulation, employers would not always be able to demand a degree for many positions that really don't need them. However, we would also need to curb the H-1B (and related) problem so that employers won't decide to simply import people with degrees for this to work.

You are running counter to the entire spirit of the Founding Fathers on education, who believed that education and critical thinking is one of the bedrocks of freedom. We see it in practice with dumb Americans believing skyscrapers can collapse from normal fires in 14 seconds, or that Saddam could have made anthrax in a rolling bio-weapons lab. These are totally laughable to anyone with even a year in college chemistry and physics.

If you want to rule over people, first you make them stupid, so that your Merlin can recite his mumbo jumbo and make them think the sulfur fire is magic from the gods. Widespread education makes us stronger, not weaker. If you don't like the libcuck curriculums then start your own conservative college.


“Educate and inform the whole mass of the people. They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty.” - Thomas Jefferson

“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects to what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson

“To penetrate and dissipate these clouds of darkness, the general mind must be strengthened by education.” Thomas Jefferson

[acptulsa]

You are running counter to the entire spirit of the Founding Fathers on education, who believed that education and critical thinking is one of the bedrocks of freedom. We see it in practice with dumb Americans believing skyscrapers can collapse from normal fires in 14 seconds, or that Saddam could have made anthrax in a rolling bio-weapons lab. These are totally laughable to anyone with even a year in college chemistry and physics.

If you want to rule over people, first you make them stupid, so that your Merlin can recite his mumbo jumbo and make them think the sulfur fire is magic from the gods. Widespread education makes us stronger, not weaker. If you don't like the libcuck curriculums then start your own conservative college.


“Educate and inform the whole mass of the people. They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty.” - Thomas Jefferson

“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects to what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson

“To penetrate and dissipate these clouds of darkness, the general mind must be strengthened by education.” Thomas Jefferson

Yet we have more college graduates than ever before believing more ridiculous fairy tales than ever before.

It would seem federal government involvement is replacing genuine education with something else. Washington has driven the price up and the quality down.

So regardless of whether you think he's running counter to Thomas Jefferson, clearly he's not. And when you consider Jefferson said the day Washington micromanaged everything would be the day the U.S. had the most corrupt system on earth, you see how completely he agrees with Jefferson.

And how you don't.

[Superfluous Man]

However, we would also need to curb the H-1B (and related) problem so that employers won't decide to simply import people with degrees for this to work.

On the contrary, with competition from more workers from other countries providing employers with their labor at a lower cost, American workers in the same fields will also have to demand less, leading to a decrease in demand for degrees leading to those jobs, putting a downward pressure on the price of those degrees.

If there's an H-1B problem, that problem is the fact that the federal government limits our ability to hire people from other countries to work for us.

[Superfluous Man]

You are running counter to the entire spirit of the Founding Fathers on education, who believed that education and critical thinking is one of the bedrocks of freedom. We see it in practice with dumb Americans believing skyscrapers can collapse from normal fires in 14 seconds, or that Saddam could have made anthrax in a rolling bio-weapons lab. These are totally laughable to anyone with even a year in college chemistry and physics.

If you want to rule over people, first you make them stupid, so that your Merlin can recite his mumbo jumbo and make them think the sulfur fire is magic from the gods. Widespread education makes us stronger, not weaker. If you don't like the libcuck curriculums then start your own conservative college.


“Educate and inform the whole mass of the people. They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty.” - Thomas Jefferson

“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects to what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson

“To penetrate and dissipate these clouds of darkness, the general mind must be strengthened by education.” Thomas Jefferson

Education is not something that a person has because it was provided to them by a government. It's something that a person attains through their own hard work.

Yes, education important. And its importance is precisely why we should want government to stay as far away from it as possible.

[Krugminator2]

You are running counter to the entire spirit of the Founding Fathers on education, who believed that education and critical thinking is one of the bedrocks of freedom. We see it in practice with dumb Americans believing skyscrapers can collapse from normal fires in 14 seconds, or that Saddam could have made anthrax in a rolling bio-weapons lab. These are totally laughable to anyone with even a year in college chemistry and physics.

If you want to rule over people, first you make them stupid, so that you Merlin can recite his mumbo jumbo and make them think the sulfur fire is magic from the gods. Widespread education makes us stronger, not weaker. If you don't like the libcuck curriculums then start your own conservative college.


“Educate and inform the whole mass of the people. They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty.” - Thomas Jefferson

“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects to what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson

“To penetrate and dissipate these clouds of darkness, the general mind must be strengthened by education.” Thomas Jefferson

I got the highest score out of around 200 on the Chemistry final exam. I also took 4 physics classes. I didn't learn anything about anthrax or bioweapons or skyscrapers melting.

Thomas Jefferson died broke. His views on education are terrible. He should have been a little less liberal arts. A little more focused on one subject.

More people getting film studies degrees doesn't make society better off. Real degrees have value. But most of the kids whining about debt and tuition costs are people who didn't get a marketable skill. This idea that more college grads would benefit society is wrong. Anyone who wants to go will go now. Fewer people should go to college. More people should get into trades. More nurses. And leftists tend to have this notion that just getting a college degree makes someone smarter and superior. I will take the average plumber over 90% of humanities majors.

[acptulsa]

So, first Washington is presented as the cure for the problem Washington created. Then Jefferson is quoted talking about how an educated electorate is the best counter to a corrupt government...

“Educate and inform the whole mass of the people. They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty.” - Thomas Jefferson

And an increase in government involvent and control is put forward as a way to ensure we have the tools to counter that corruption.

Yes, there be skepticism.

[Philhelm]

On the contrary, with competition from more workers from other countries providing employers with their labor at a lower cost, American workers in the same fields will also have to demand less, leading to a decrease in demand for degrees leading to those jobs, putting a downward pressure on the price of those degrees.

If there's an H-1B problem, that problem is the fact that the federal government limits our ability to hire people from other countries to work for us.

If everyone operated within one global system that would make sense, but we're not all on equal footing and we don't all play by the same rules. Mass importation of people from the desperate $#@!holes of the world (who tend to overwhelmingly oppose liberty) serves no practical purpose. My philosophical libertarianism ends where slitting my own throat begins.

[Superfluous Man]

If everyone operated within one global system that would make sense, but we're not all on equal footing and we don't all play by the same rules. Mass importation of people from the desperate $#@!holes of the world (who tend to overwhelmingly oppose liberty) serves no practical purpose. My philosophical libertarianism ends where slitting my own throat begins.

Determining if it serves a practical purpose should be left to the people who want to hire them. If they see no practical purpose in hiring them, then they won't hire them. It's not the government's business.

I have no idea what your first sentence about equal footing means. But if you're suggesting that our government not burdening us with regulations (such as telling us whom we can and can't hire) should be contingent on what other country's governments do to their subjects, then that's totally wrong.

[specsaregood]

Aren't community colleges socialism?

Sure it has elements of socialism in it. But anything other than no government is "socialism" to some degree.
I believe the community college angle is the "compromise" you asked in the OP.

They spend far less per student than the 4 yr schools, tuition pays for much more of it and yet the tuition is more affordable and you can pay as you go while working.

[specsaregood]

Here is a perfect example of NOT needing govt paid schools:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...to-Technicians

This example is of a company recognizing the need for trained workers and setting up: "scholarships, tuition reimbursement and apprentice programs; and creating internship programs, job placement and continuing education opportunities" for future employees in the field. No govt money needed.

[Anti Federalist]

You are running counter to the entire spirit of the Founding Fathers on education, who believed that education and critical thinking is one of the bedrocks of freedom. We see it in practice with dumb Americans believing skyscrapers can collapse from normal fires in 14 seconds, or that Saddam could have made anthrax in a rolling bio-weapons lab. These are totally laughable to anyone with even a year in college chemistry and physics.

If you want to rule over people, first you make them stupid, so that your Merlin can recite his mumbo jumbo and make them think the sulfur fire is magic from the gods. Widespread education makes us stronger, not weaker. If you don't like the libcuck curriculums then start your own conservative college.


“Educate and inform the whole mass of the people. They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty.” - Thomas Jefferson

“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects to what never was and never will be.” Thomas Jefferson

“To penetrate and dissipate these clouds of darkness, the general mind must be strengthened by education.” Thomas Jefferson

That hilarious...

The entire school system, from K to PhD, is arranged and structured to squelch independent thought, rational questioning and logic.

It was designed, from its inception, to enforce and instill conformity, mediocrity and blind allegiance to the state and prevailing "accepted" norms.

[Schifference]

My kids have huge privilege. Son is in 4th year at RPI. He has slowed down his classwork because he is getting Masters in 5. He received/earned $48,500 per year tuition scholarship directly from the college, probably due to his perfect math SAT's and overall GPA and all the AP classes he took in HS. He works as an RA and has to purchase a meal plan per the RA rules. His total out of pocket cost to go to that great engineering school is around 7K per year. He will graduate with a degree in Electrical Engineering this May and Masters of Business Analytics next May. My youngest daughter had 11 AP classes in HS and has a large scholarship from UCONN. She is majoring in Chemical Engineering.

Keep government out of education. We had no free rides that is why I taught my kids to be smart, inquisitive, respectful, use logic, learn math and develop solutions to their own problems.

Entitled stupid students are a waste of resources all the way around.

[CaptUSA]

Government guaranteed student loans are corporate welfare for banksters and the death of sanity in college pricing. Eliminate that and colleges will figure out how to provide affordable educations again.

It was once possible to work one's way through college. And then we heard those dreaded words: We're from the government and we're here to help.

Oh, you anarchists... Always wanting to get government out of things. As we all know, stopping government from creating problems is too difficult, so the only answer we're left with is more government! We need to build a wall around the banks so that only the "right" people will get the loans. Then, the problem will solve itself. Only then, can we shrink government!


(at least that's the way I'm being told it works.)

[PAF]

Get government out of the picture. Eliminate all taxpayer funding of college, including loans. Eliminate all regulations. Eliminate targeted tax breaks for it and replace them with across the board tax cuts.

Do those things, and not only will college get cheaper, but all sorts of innovative alternatives to college will emerge in a marketplace of options out of which the winning educational models will provide better results than college--better, as determined by the people buying the product.

Oh, you anarchists... Always wanting to get government out of things. As we all know, stopping government from creating problems is too difficult, so the only answer we're left with is more government! We need to build a wall around the banks so that only the "right" people will get the loans. Then, the problem will solve itself. Only then, can we shrink government!


(at least that's the way I'm being told it works.)

I'm out of + Rep for the both of you.


When there are only so many one can agree with it is difficult to spread it around. Perhaps the mod can lift this "regulation"?

[Philhelm]

Determining if it serves a practical purpose should be left to the people who want to hire them. If they see no practical purpose in hiring them, then they won't hire them. It's not the government's business.

I have no idea what your first sentence about equal footing means. But if you're suggesting that our government not burdening us with regulations (such as telling us whom we can and can't hire) should be contingent on what other country's governments do to their subjects, then that's totally wrong.

By equal footing, I mean that people across the globe do not all operate within the same system with the same benefits, disadvantages, etc., imposed upon them by government. For one example, and sticking to the topic of education, immigrants from nations that provide "free" college education would have an advantage over native citizens within a system in which we are attempting to reduce college costs, and the necessity of college attendance, by removing government interference. If employers can simply sidestep the U.S. workforce by hiring foreigners that may have obtained their college degrees through the aid of their own governments' interference, then we are simply setting ourselves up for failure since we are not all operating within the same system.

I agree in spirit, but it is impractical to have a government system that does not benefit its own citizens.

[acptulsa]

If employers can simply sidestep the U.S. workforce by hiring foreigners that may have obtained their college degrees through the aid of their own governments' interference, then we are simply setting ourselves up for failure since we are not all operating within the same system.

But once we swallow the bitter medicine for a little while, we wind up with what we had before--superior universities providing superior educations. Then all diplomas cease to mean the same thing.

[Cleaner44]

College should be free... all of the "public servants" should donate their time to share knowledge with others.

If the professors don't want to work for free then we should get the government out of the system and allow the price to drop to its true market value.

Government subsidies = higher prices