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Thread: Yelling Fire in a crowded auditorium is Not Legal

  1. #1

    Yelling Fire in a crowded auditorium is Not Legal

    Well if yelling fire is not legal, why should Liberals be able to scare the entire population with pseusoscience and fear mongering of existential threats? This should go to court and a judge should rule a gag order.

    'Existential' threat to the planet: Ocasio-Cortez offers Green New Deal details

    The Green New Deal is now a green new plan, with Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., and Sen. Ed Markey, D-Mass., set to roll out a resolution calling for a complete transition to renewable energy by 2030.

    The legislation is the first of its kind to emerge from a flurry of activism around a Green New Deal in the new Congress, a cause Ocasio-Cortez has championed since arriving in Washington. It seeks "to achieve net-zero greenhouse gas emissions through a fair and just transition for all communities and workers," according to a copy of the resolution posted by NPR.

    "Climate change and our environmental challenges are one of the biggest existential threats to our way of life, not just as a nation, but as a world," Ocasio-Cortez said at a news conference introducing the resolution. "In order for us to combat that threat we must be as ambitious and innovative in our solution as possible."

    Video and more at link: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/con...energy-n968781



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    Well if yelling fire is not legal, why should Liberals be able to scare the entire population with pseusoscience and fear mongering of existential threats? This should go to court and a judge should rule a gag order.

    'Existential' threat to the planet: Ocasio-Cortez offers Green New Deal details

    The Green New Deal is now a green new plan, with Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, D-N.Y., and Sen. Ed Markey, D-Mass., set to roll out a resolution calling for a complete transition to renewable energy by 2030.

    The legislation is the first of its kind to emerge from a flurry of activism around a Green New Deal in the new Congress, a cause Ocasio-Cortez has championed since arriving in Washington. It seeks "to achieve net-zero greenhouse gas emissions through a fair and just transition for all communities and workers," according to a copy of the resolution posted by NPR.

    "Climate change and our environmental challenges are one of the biggest existential threats to our way of life, not just as a nation, but as a world," Ocasio-Cortez said at a news conference introducing the resolution. "In order for us to combat that threat we must be as ambitious and innovative in our solution as possible."

    Video and more at link: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/con...energy-n968781
    Though the image often represents illegal speech, "shouting fire in a crowded theater" refers to an outdated legal standard. At one point, the law criminalized such speech, which created a "clear and present danger." But since 1969, for speech to break the law, it can’t merely lead others to dangerous situations. It must directly encourage others to commit specific criminal actions of their own.

    The idea of falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded theater arose from the Supreme Court’s 1919 decision in the case Schenck v. United States. The Court ruled unanimously that the First Amendment, though it protects freedom of expression, does not protect dangerous speech. In the decision, Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote that no free speech safeguard would cover someone "falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic."

    The case in question did not involve fires, theaters or general panic. It instead concerned a man’s conviction for protesting the First World War’s military draft. The man, Charles Schenck, had printed 15,000 fliers that encouraged readers to resist conscription. The Espionage Act of 1917 and the Sedition Act of 1918 criminalized such an offense, said prosecutors.

    Schenck argued that the Constitution allowed his expression, but the Court disagreed. According to their ruling, Schnenck’s fliers created a clear and present danger — a clear and present danger to the government’s recruiting efforts. He hadn’t endangered life, as falsely shouting "fire" in a crowded theater would have, but he may as well have.

    This "clear and present danger" standard stood for half a century. Further rulings even expanded it, criminalizing additional speech. But the Supreme Court then heard a case involving a new example of questionable speech, one that modern sensibilities might find more controversial than war protests.

    Charles Brandenburg, a Ku Klux Klan leader, had spoken to group members at a televised Ohio rally. He’d used inflammatory language and racial slurs. He’d called for "revengeance," which Ohio prosecutors interpreted as a call to violence. This meant, said the prosecutors, that Charles Brandenburg had broken the law.

    A statute, which the state had enacted the same year as the Schenck decision, criminalized the advocacy of crime or violence. The victims of any possible crime this speech incited would face even clearer danger than patrons fleeing a crowded theater.

    Yet Brandenburg claimed the First Amendment protected his speech. His appeal reached the Supreme Court, and the Court agreed with him, in contrast with the earlier Schenck decision. Advocacy, even when it encourages law-breaking, helps the marketplace of ideas, ruled the Court. Had Brandenburg instructed followers to commit a specific crime, he’d have committed a number of offenses himself. But the First Amendment protects speech that merely advocates general, indefinite illegal action.

    With that ruling, the Court overturned the Schenck decision that had introduced "shouting fire in a crowded theater." No longer was "clear and present danger" a sufficient standard for criminalizing speech. To break the law, speech now had to incite "imminent lawless action."
    http://civil-liberties.yoexpert.com/...ter-19421.html

    From my understanding, it seems like its no longer illegal to yell fire in a crowded theatre. Down with govt censorship, first amendment FTW
    Last edited by juleswin; 02-26-2019 at 07:44 AM.

  4. #3
    yelling fire in a subway...
    Today explosion in Ciaro, Egypt occured in the train station. It was an accident afaik, minister of transportation already resigned. Below footage of the explosion:

    https://twitter.com/uunionnews/statu...52291253153792
    Last edited by goldenequity; 02-27-2019 at 08:20 AM.

  5. #4
    Yell "weapons of mass destruction" instead. There is precedent on that one, and it will allow lawful invasion of the theater. You may then award contracts to your friends to make additions and repairs to the theater.

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"



  6. #5
    It's doubtful that the Brandenberg test would overrule Holmes's hypothetical in Schenck. Advocacy of political ideas is one thing; deliberately causing a panic by lying is another. The former shouldn't be interfered with so that the marketplace of ideas can flourish. The latter has nothing to do with ideas. As Justice Douglas put it in his concurring opinion in Brandenberg:

    The line between what is permissible and not subject to control and what may be made impermissible and subject to regulation is the line between ideas and overt acts.

    The example usually given by those who would punish speech is the case of one who falsely shouts fire in a crowded theatre.

    This is, however, a classic case where speech is brigaded with action. See Speiser v. Randall, 357 U.S. 513, 536-537 (DOUGLAS, J., concurring). They are indeed inseparable, and a prosecution can be launched for the overt acts actually caused. Apart from rare instances of that kind, speech is, I think, immune from prosecution.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous



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