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Thread: US Says Alabama Jihadist Cannot Re-Enter US Because Automatically Loses Citizenship

  1. #1

    US Says Alabama Jihadist Cannot Re-Enter US Because Automatically Loses Citizenship

    An enemy combatant is still a citizen. Next it will be anyone framed up as "associated with terrorism" like the NDAA military detention of US citizens. She still has rights until tried, even if just the right to a trial and jail.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/af...-jihadist.html

    Washington (AFP) - The United States said Wednesday it would refuse to take back a US-born Islamic State propagandist who wants to return from Syria, saying that she is no longer a citizen.

    The refusal to admit 24-year-old Hoda Muthana could set precedent and face legal challenges as it is generally extremely difficult to lose US citizenship.
    His name was Seth Rich.



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  3. #2
    Okay open borders people. Where are you?
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    Okay open borders people. Where are you?
    Here.

    It looks like the OP covered this pretty well already.

    What are you getting at? Do you honestly think the executive branch should be able to just take away any of our citizenships by declaring us enemy combatants according to its own criteria without any due process?

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by James_Madison_Lives View Post
    An enemy combatant is still a citizen. Next it will be anyone framed up as "associated with terrorism" like the NDAA military detention of US citizens. She still has rights until tried, even if just the right to a trial and jail.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/af...-jihadist.html
    I agree. She has rights as a citizen. Unless it is an active war zone and she is imminently a danger, she should retain her rights as a citizen. If she wants to return, she should stand trial and face judgment for assisting the monsters who bedheaded innocent people and setting others on fire while alive.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  6. #5
    She renounced her citizenship when she joined ISIS. Legally, she is better off being treated as a member of ISIS.

    If she is still considered a citizen, she is guilty of treason and quite a few other crimes. She could be executed.

    And as a member of ISIS, her status as an immigrant to the US is to stand in the same line as other members of ISIS.
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  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    I agree. She has rights as a citizen. Unless it is an active war zone and she is imminently a danger, she should retain her rights as a citizen. If she wants to return, she should stand trial and face judgment for assisting the monsters who bedheaded innocent people and setting others on fire while alive.
    Which means that life in prison is the best she could hope for if she came back.
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
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  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Which means that life in prison is the best she could hope for if she came back.
    Exactly.

    It would be the last time such a ridiculous request was made by such a traitor and hopefully give pause to any other deranged soul who decides to join such a group of monsters in the future.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    She renounced her citizenship when she joined ISIS. Legally, she is better off being treated as a member of ISIS.

    If she is still considered a citizen, she is guilty of treason and quite a few other crimes. She could be executed.

    And as a member of ISIS, her status as an immigrant to the US is to stand in the same line as other members of ISIS.
    If she renounced her citizenship the she doesn't have it any more and she has no right to come here.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

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    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    She renounced her citizenship when she joined ISIS.
    Source?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    If she is still considered a citizen, she is guilty of treason and quite a few other crimes. She could be executed.
    That would require due process.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Source?
    Eminent legal scholar Mark Levin:

    Levin went on to explain the foundation for his suggestion that U.S. citizens fighting for ISIS have “relinquished their United States citizenship.”

    Section 349 of the Immigration and Nationality Act 8 U.S.C. 1481 as amended is that foundation, and it explains how citizens are subject to losing their citizenship if they, voluntarily and with the intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship, perform at least one of seven specified acts.

    Levin then stated, “[B]y their acts, in joining the Islamo-Nazis, we should use common sense, and certainly, interpret that to mean an intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship.”

    The two specified acts that Levin says matter the most to him are as follows:

    (1) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or

    (2) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if (A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or (B) such persons serve as a commissioned or noncommissioned officer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    That would require due process.
    She could return and be duly arrested, charged, tried and hung.
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
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    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Eminent legal scholar Mark Levin:
    Sarcasm?

  14. #12
    Yah, I have to side with precedent on this:

    The FedGov never revoked citizenship of the Communist that fought for Stalin in the Spanish Civil War.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Yah, I have to side with precedent on this:

    The FedGov never revoked citizenship of the Communist that fought for Stalin in the Spanish Civil War.
    Relevant law (The Expatriation Act of 1954) was not passed until 1954...

    Update: Upon further review, it was a revision of a previous version, and has been updated several times since, mostly to allow Vietnam era draft dodgers to retain their citizenship.

    I assume that Levin was referring to the latest iteration of the law and State Department policy.
    Last edited by Brian4Liberty; 02-20-2019 at 07:54 PM.
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Yah, I have to side with precedent on this:

    The FedGov never revoked citizenship of the Communist that fought for Stalin in the Spanish Civil War.
    The US was not a participant in the Spanish Civil War.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Here.

    It looks like the OP covered this pretty well already.

    What are you getting at? Do you honestly think the executive branch should be able to just take away any of our citizenships by declaring us enemy combatants according to its own criteria without any due process?

    Not even a little bit. But that’s the threat right now. An American citizen who committed no crime on American soil traveled abroad said a few things, and now the ptb don’t want to let her come back.
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    She renounced her citizenship when she joined ISIS. Legally, she is better off being treated as a member of ISIS.
    No offense, but I did not read that in the article.
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley



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  20. #17
    I read she was never a US citizen, as she was born to foreign diplomats while temporarily in Alabama, diplomatic immunity and all that, she was never subject to the jurisdiction of the USA.
    I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.

    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 04/20/16
    There won't be a contested convention
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 05/30/17
    The shooting of Gabrielle Gifford was blamed on putting a crosshair on a political map. I wonder what event we'll see justified with pictures like this.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Eminent legal scholar Mark Levin:





    She could return and be duly arrested, charged, tried and hung.
    "With the intent of giving up their citizenship". Meaning you could perform one of the acts listed and not forfeit your citizenship. It is not automatic "do this and you are no longer a citizen."

    Levin went on to explain the foundation for his suggestion that U.S. citizens fighting for ISIS have “relinquished their United States citizenship.”

    Section 349 of the Immigration and Nationality Act 8 U.S.C. 1481 as amended is that foundation, and it explains how citizens are subject to losing their citizenship if they, voluntarily and with the intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship, perform at least one of seven specified acts.

    Levin then stated, “[B]y their acts, in joining the Islamo-Nazis, we should use common sense, and certainly, interpret that to mean an intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship.”

    The two specified acts that Levin says matter the most to him are as follows:

    (1) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or

    (2) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if (A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or (B) such persons serve as a commissioned or noncommissioned officer.


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  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    I read she was never a US citizen, as she was born to foreign diplomats while temporarily in Alabama, diplomatic immunity and all that, she was never subject to the jurisdiction of the USA.
    Maybe. Maybe not.

    https://www.justsecurity.org/62659/u...-hoda-muthana/

    This, of course, is the big question. The government apparently does not dispute that Muthana was born in the United States. Instead, the argument against her citizenship appears to be that her father was a Yemeni diplomat posted to the United Nations, and that children of officially accredited foreign diplomats born in the United States are not entitled to birthright citizenship under the Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

    As a matter of law, that claim is correct. The key here is a question of fact: Was Muthana’s father in fact a Yemeni diplomat at the time of her birth. Rukmini Callimachi has reported, for example, that her father’s U.N. posting terminated one month prior to Muthana’s birth. There’s little gray area here; in order to decide whether individuals are entitled to diplomatic immunity, U.S. law has historically taken a bright-line approach to the question of diplomatic status. If the father’s posting had in fact terminated prior to Muthana’s birth, then it should follow that she is, indeed, a US citizen.

    Moreover, Callimachi also reports that, when Muthana previously applied for (and received) a US passport, “her father was asked to produce proof that he had been discharged from his diplomatic post.” Thus, not only does it appear that she was entitled to citizenship at the time of her birth, but that the State Department itself so concluded as recently as 2014.

    The State Department’s prior determination is not necessarily conclusive. But it is deeply suggestive of the conclusion that Muthana’s father was, as a matter of law, no longer entitled to diplomatic immunity at the time of her birth, and so her birth on U.S. soil entitled her to birthright citizenship.
    More information:

    II. Can Muthana’s Citizenship Be Revoked?

    That Muthana was lawfully a citizen does not mean the government lacks the power to revoke her citizenship. But expatriation is limited to a hyper-specific set of cases spelled out at 8 U.S.C. § 1481(a), and none of those categories seem to apply here. Even 8 U.S.C. § 1481(a)(7), which allows expatriation of those who commit treason or other hostile acts against the U.S. government, requires that they be “convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction” before they can be expatriated. Needless to say, that hasn’t happened here.

    More to the point, as I’ve written before, the Supreme Court has held, over and over again, that expatriation is not a punishment, but rather a step the government may only take with the voluntary involvement of the (ex-)citizen. That is to say, the Constitution requires that the individual in question voluntarily and overtly relinquish their citizenship. Whatever missteps Muthana may have taken, and whatever crimes she may have committed, it’s hard to see the kind of voluntary intent the Supreme Court has previously required on the facts as they’re currently known.

    III. If Muthana Is a Citizen, Does She Have a Right To Return to the United States?

    The Supreme Court has held that the government is allowed to revoke passports for national security or foreign policy reasons, so long as it provides due process. But revoking a passport (to deny a right to travel abroad) is not the same thing as refusing the right of a citizen to return home. Although the Supreme Court has never squarely been presented with such a case, it seems likely that, in an appropriate case, the Court would recognize that someone who is lawfully a citizen has the right to return to the United States. At the very least, it should have to follow from the passport cases that, even if the government has the right to prevent a citizen from returning to the United States, it must provide a significant amount of process in such cases.

    And that leads to the most important point here: Although the State Department’s own Manual and regulations clearly outline a process for resolving disputes over citizenship, there is no indication that any of those procedures have been followed here. Wish though they might, neither the Secretary of State nor even the President of the United States have the power to determine an individual’s citizenship by fiat. (Imagine if it were otherwise.)

    Thus, although there is a factual dispute to be resolved over Muthana’s citizenship, and, if she is a citizen, a legal dispute to be resolved over whether she has a right to return to the United States, perhaps the most important takeaway from all of this is the extent to which the process is going to matter. Of course, folks may have a hard time feeling especially sympathetic to Muthana. But as Justice Frankfurter rightly put it, “the history of liberty has largely been the history of the observance of procedural safeguards.”


    Wish though they might, neither the Secretary of State nor even the President of the United States have the power to determine an individual’s citizenship by fiat. (Imagine if it were otherwise.[/B])
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 02-20-2019 at 07:07 PM.


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  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    "With the intent of giving up their citizenship". Meaning you could perform one of the acts listed and not forfeit your citizenship. It is not automatic "do this and you are no longer a citizen."
    She burned her US passport on YouTube. Of course one could argue that was purely a symbolic statement of her desire to see the US destroyed and Americans dead, and was not evidence of intent to no longer be a US citizen...
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
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    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    She burned her US passport on YouTube. Of course one could argue that was purely a symbolic statement of her desire to see the US destroyed and Americans dead, and was not evidence of intent to no longer be a US citizen...
    If the US was destroyed then she would no longer be a citizen of the nonexistent US.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #22
    Trump could give her Obama's Awlaki treatment.

  26. #23

    Wahhabi Brotherhood

    President Trump should be deported to Riyadh.



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  27. #24
    This won't apply to Congress members/christian evanglicals who may have joined extremist Islamist Jihad against infidels, would it?



    US Congressman caught on camera waging Islamist Jihad against Infidels


    Congressman Dana Rohrabacher



    Congressman Charlie Wilson




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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    She renounced her citizenship when she joined ISIS. Legally, she is better off being treated as a member of ISIS.

    If she is still considered a citizen, she is guilty of treason and quite a few other crimes. She could be executed.

    And as a member of ISIS, her status as an immigrant to the US is to stand in the same line as other members of ISIS.
    I also think that this could be an interesting test to eventually limit birthright citizenship. I don't have the details, but the outlet I saw was reporting that she was born to a diplomat, albeit a couple of months after he left the post. Children born to diplomats don't get citizenship. If he was still here on his diplomatic visa, that will make an interesting court case.

    I am really pissed that the same people who were ready to lynch a high school boy are going all in for this traitorous wh*re. (She's 24, been married 3 times. So yeah.)
    Last edited by angelatc; 02-21-2019 at 12:03 AM.
    *******

    Anti-vaxxers, responsible for a 30 percent uptick in totally preventable diseases in the world, have blood on their hands. They shouldn't be considered civilized members of society. If they refuse to listen to a century of scientific studies confirming time and time again that vaccination is an unquestionable good for humanity, then it's time for us to start treating anti-vaxxers as what they are: dangerous and worthy of shame and condemnation. If we can't convince anti-vaxxers to change their minds, we must attach enough social stigma to the delusion that agnostics cease to join them.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If the US was destroyed then she would no longer be a citizen of the nonexistent US.
    There are many Americans, myself included, who think that the Anti-federalists were right, that the creation of the federal government as we know it was a mistake from the beginning, would love to see that federal government eliminated, such that there would no longer be any such thing as US citizenship, and will say so publicly. This does not give that same regime the right to revoke our right to live here and be left alone. In fact, the First Amendment prohibits that regime from punishing us for saying that.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 02-21-2019 at 07:26 AM.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    This won't apply to Congress members/christian evanglicals who may have joined extremist Islamist Jihad against infidels, would it?



    US Congressman caught on camera waging Islamist Jihad against Infidels


    Congressman Dana Rohrabacher



    Congressman Charlie Wilson

    Don't forget this one.


  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    She burned her US passport on YouTube. Of course one could argue that was purely a symbolic statement of her desire to see the US destroyed and Americans dead, and was not evidence of intent to no longer be a US citizen...
    Any motive at all would be tough to prove, which is part of due process (and I think we're all still agreeing that due process is necessary, right?). I don't see a difference between burning her passport and burning an American flag. Due you favor similar punishments for people who do that?

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Any motive at all would be tough to prove, which is part of due process (and I think we're all still agreeing that due process is necessary, right?). I don't see a difference between burning her passport and burning an American flag. Due you favor similar punishments for people who do that?
    Due Process, is she US Citizen?

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    Due Process, is she US Citizen?
    Yes. Or at least that is precisely the question. She has not gone through the normal process or relinquishing her citizenship. And in order to say that she has done that by way of some criminal act that she denies, that would need to be proven. I.e. due process.

    That said, I hope that you don't actually approve of the idea that due process is only for US citizens, such that I have a right to go out and violate someone else's rights on the pretense of punishing them for some crime, without due process, as long as they're not a US citizen. I have no such right, and inasmuch as I don't have it, I can't delegate to any government to do that on my behalf. And it happens to be a fact that nowhere in the Constitution is any authority delegated to the federal government to go out into the world violating people's rights on the pretense of some crime they are charged with without actually proving them guilty first. The federal government has no constitutional authority at all to punish anyone, citizen or not, for any crime without due process.

    If that power does belong to the federal government, then we're right back at what I said initially. The regime can simply charge you with a crime that entails relinquishment of your citizenship (if you are one) and then punish you on top of that without proving you guilty, since due process would only be for citizens. And of course, this is only part of the problem, since the punishment of anyone at all without due process is obviously unethical.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 02-21-2019 at 08:04 AM.

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