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Thread: The Case Against ‘Border Security’

  1. #1

    Exclamation The Case Against ‘Border Security’

    Here is a guy, who is literally one of the New Jacobins I've been ranting about, making the same talking points case for unlimited immigration the leftarians make.




    The Case Against ‘Border Security’

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/11/o...rity-wall.html

    By Daniel Denvir

    Feb. 11, 2019

    The last government shutdown ended because Democrats stood firm against President Trump’s border wall. But funding will soon run out again, talks between Democrats and Republicans are in crisis, and Mr. Trump remains committed: “The Wall will get built one way or the other!” he tweeted on Saturday.

    The Senate’s minority leader, Chuck Schumer, has made it clear that Mr. Trump won’t get his way: “Democrats are against the wall.” House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who has admirably enforced party discipline, has called the wall “immoral.”

    Yet at the same time, Ms. Pelosi has emphasized that “Democrats are committed to border security.” She has critiqued the wall on the narrow grounds that government should instead employ “evidence-based knowledge about how we best secure our border.” James Clyburn, the majority whip, fleshed out what that might look like: a “smart wall,” including more Border Patrol agents. This, too, is immoral.

    It’s also bad politics.

    Democrats should follow their voters, who increasingly want more open borders, and reframe the immigration debate by rejecting the very notion that the border needs more “security” and making it clear that the real problem is the denial of migrants’ rights. The time has come for the Democratic Party to push for concrete policies to make the border more open.

    There is plainly no need for more security on the border. Illegal entries to the United States (as measured by Border Patrol apprehensions, which the government has long used as a proxy) began to fall at the turn of the century, and have plummeted since 2006. They remain at historic lows today. Those who are coming to the country are often Central Americans fleeing violence that United States policy in the region helped foment.

    And when it comes to drugs — a favorite justification of Mr. Trump’s for his wall — evidence shows that more “border security” does not stop trafficking. From the 1970s on, every crackdown on a drug-smuggling route, whether it was heroin via the French Connection or cocaine through the Caribbean, has only led to new innovations in the trade that have empowered murderous Mexican cartels. Some scholars even argue that the rise of fentanyl can be traced to drug interdiction.

    Then why, if there isn’t truly a crisis on the border, do the Democrats continue to invoke the need for more “border security”? Largely because the conversation about the border and immigration has moved so far to the right over the past 30 years. As the linguist George Lakoff and Sam Ferguson, his student at the time, wrote more than a decade ago, the narrow framing of the “immigration” debate “has shaped its politics, defining what count as ‘problems’” and, as a result, “constrains the solutions needed to address that problem.” When the “problem” is defined as “illegal immigration,” it becomes about “the illegal act of crossing the border without papers,” and so “the logical response to the ‘wave’ of ‘illegal immigration’ becomes ‘border security.’”

    Since Bill Clinton’s presidency, the Border Patrol has grown from 4,100 agents in fiscal year 1992 to more than 19,000 today. The United States has built hundreds of miles of border fencing since the 2006 Secure Fence Act, which Barack Obama, Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton voted for. “Well, I voted for border security, and some of it was a fence,” Mrs. Clinton feebly said in 2016 when pressed about the 2006 vote that within a decade had become controversial.

    Democrats have for far too long let their political opponents define the terms of debate. Now they’re doing it again: House Democrats’ proposal heading into the negotiations with Republicans didn’t include funding for new physical barriers or additional Border Patrol agents, but it did offer significantly increased funding for “border security technology.”

    That’s not only bad for immigrants who, as a result of militarized borders are more likely to be kidnapped, violently assaulted and driven to cross via the lethal desert. It’s also bad for Democrats, who are handing ammunition to the nativist right at a time when Republicans are on the back foot and polls show that Democratic voters are moving decidedly leftward on immigration and the border.

    Voters used to overwhelmingly favor less immigration, but opinions have changed fast amid an immigrant rights movement that took off in 2006 and partisan polarization driven by aggressive enforcement. In 1994, just 32 percent of Democrats and Democratic-leaning Americans and 30 percent of Republicans agreed that immigrants strengthened the country, according to the Pew Research Center. But by 2016, the share of Democrats who said so had skyrocketed to 78 percent. In 2006, 37 percent of Democrats said that immigration levels should be decreased, while only 20 percent said that it should be increased. In 2018, 40 percent said that it should be increased, with just 16 percent calling for restriction. The same trend has held on border politics: In 2010, 47 percent of Democrats said that they equally prioritized legalizing undocumented immigrants and “better border security and stronger enforcement of immigration laws,” while just 29 percent prioritized legalization alone. By 2018, the number prioritizing legalization alone skyrocketed to 51 percent.

    Under President Trump, polarization has accelerated — and that’s a good thing. The vanishing bipartisan consensus orchestrated mammoth deportations and militarized the border in the quixotic hope of placating the nativist right and winning it over to supporting immigration reform. This strategy only inflamed the right’s paranoiac ravings and helped move the goal posts to new extremes. Which is why we find ourselves, in 2019, with the possibility of beginning a second government shutdown over the wall.

    So, what should the Democrats pursue instead? A break with a failed bipartisan consensus.

    Representatives Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Ilhan Omar, Ayanna Pressley and Rashida Tlaib, all Democrats who are new to the House, have drafted a letter urging opposition to any deal that increases Department of Homeland Security funding in any form. That’s a good start.

    The border must be demilitarized, which would include demolishing the already-existing wall and dramatically downsizing the Border Patrol. Criminal sanctions on illegal entry and re-entry must be repealed. Opportunities for legal immigration, particularly from Mexico and Central America, must be expanded. The right to asylum must be honored. And citizenship for those who reside here must be a stand-alone cause, unencumbered by compromises that are not only distasteful but also politically ineffectual — and that today would provoke opposition from the nativist right and the grass-roots left. If Democrats stick to the center on immigration, they will find themselves fighting on two fronts. A fight against Republicans, with the left at their back, will be far easier to win — and a more noble victory.

    Simple realism dictates that no legislation to grant citizenship to the millions of undocumented Americans who deserve it will be passed until the Republicans are defeated. There’s no use trying to appease them. The bipartisan consensus supporting harsh immigration and border enforcement has fractured. Democratic elected officials need to catch up.

    Daniel Denvir (@danieldenvir) is a visiting fellow at the Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs at Brown University and the author of the forthcoming “All-American Nativism.”

    He also hosts “The Dig,” a podcast from Jacobin magazine.



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    The border must be demilitarized, which would include demolishing the already-existing wall and dramatically downsizing the Border Patrol. Criminal sanctions on illegal entry and re-entry must be repealed. Opportunities for legal immigration, particularly from Mexico and Central America, must be expanded. The right to asylum must be honored. And citizenship for those who reside here must be a stand-alone cause, unencumbered by compromises that are not only distasteful but also politically
    I'd give 'em everything they want. In exchange for a total dismantling of the welfare state. Including immigrants and native-born citizens. I'd even throw in a stop to the war on drugs, which they 'say' they also want.

    You see?? I understand compromise.


    Oh, but then immigration wouldn't be a problem anymore and your political leaders wouldn't be able to use it as a wedge issue for their fundraising and ratings...
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  4. #3
    The USA can't compete with 3rd world countries in this globalized market. Period. That is unless we step down to meet the 3rd world so we can live on $1.27 a day too. That is the plan.

    Has anyone considered that our government and corporations (one in the same) has decided we NEED these people just to be able to compete in the 21st century? Seriously, do we expect a population of sick, dumb, and fat dependents to keep USA #1 forever? $#@!ing please. Everyone keeps running around claiming we are so great, when in reality we are getting our asses kicked. Our big guns are the only thing keeping the charade going.

    You ever think that the USA government needs hoards of 3rd worlders more than they need YOU? Our whole country has a big $#@!ing participation trophy hanging around its fiat neck.

    We are being eased into our future. Sucks, huh?
    I do not consent.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    I'd give 'em everything they want. In exchange for a total dismantling of the welfare state. Including immigrants and native-born citizens. I'd even throw in a stop to the war on drugs, which they 'say' they also want.

    You see?? I understand compromise.


    Oh, but then immigration wouldn't be a problem anymore and your political leaders wouldn't be able to use it as a wedge issue for their fundraising and ratings...
    LOL, that's not how it works.

    How it works is they come in, and vote for a bigger welfare state.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Slave Mentality View Post
    The USA can't compete with 3rd world countries in this globalized market. Period. That is unless we step down to meet the 3rd world so we can live on $1.27 a day too. That is the plan.

    Has anyone considered that our government and corporations (one in the same) has decided we NEED these people just to be able to compete in the 21st century? Seriously, do we expect a population of sick, dumb, and fat dependents to keep USA #1 forever? $#@!ing please. Everyone keeps running around claiming we are so great, when in reality we are getting our asses kicked. Our big guns are the only thing keeping the charade going.

    You ever think that the USA government needs hoards of 3rd worlders more than they need YOU? Our whole country has a big $#@!ing participation trophy hanging around its fiat neck.

    We are being eased into our future. Sucks, huh?
    We can but there are people out there managing the money and there are people out there who manipulate the people who manage money in order to have more money. This is called OPM or other people's money. Has it ever occured to you that the people who censor speech and thoughts might have an incentive to manipulate the Americans into living on 2;dollars a day and make more money and have control over a greater amount of resources

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    LOL, that's not how it works.

    How it works is they come in, and vote for a bigger welfare state.
    I know you are hell-bent on collectivizing them, but that's not how it works. "They", after they become citizens, vote for whoever they want. Most of them will choose to vote for the people who were welcoming to them. Unfortunately, the ones who are welcoming them also want a bigger welfare state. And the ones who are openly hostile to them only pretend to want a smaller welfare state. Because the government grows and liberty shrinks regardless of which party is in power - and this has been proven over and over again every time it changes hands!

    So if your goal is to stop immigration because you think it'll mean a smaller government, then you're disregarding individual human beings for no purpose.

    Once again, the government has succeeded in getting you to blame other people for the problems that the government has caused. How hard is it to figure out how bad you're being played?? I mean, it's like you want to fall for the conjob. Oh wait... That's already been established.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    I know you are hell-bent on collectivizing them, but that's not how it works. "They", after they become citizens, vote for whoever they want. Most of them will choose to vote for the people who were welcoming to them. Unfortunately, the ones who are welcoming them also want a bigger welfare state. And the ones who are openly hostile to them only pretend to want a smaller welfare state. Because the government grows and liberty shrinks regardless of which party is in power - and this has been proven over and over again every time it changes hands!

    So if your goal is to stop immigration because you think it'll mean a smaller government, then you're disregarding individual human beings for no purpose.

    Once again, the government has succeeded in getting you to blame other people for the problems that the government has caused. How hard is it to figure out how bad you're being played?? I mean, it's like you want to fall for the conjob. Oh wait... That's already been established.

    "You must spread some Reputation around ..."
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    I know you are hell-bent on collectivizing them, but that's not how it works. "They", after they become citizens, vote for whoever they want. Most of them will choose to vote for the people who were welcoming to them. Unfortunately, the ones who are welcoming them also want a bigger welfare state. And the ones who are openly hostile to them only pretend to want a smaller welfare state. Because the government grows and liberty shrinks regardless of which party is in power - and this has been proven over and over again every time it changes hands!

    So if your goal is to stop immigration because you think it'll mean a smaller government, then you're disregarding individual human beings for no purpose.

    Once again, the government has succeeded in getting you to blame other people for the problems that the government has caused. How hard is it to figure out how bad you're being played?? I mean, it's like you want to fall for the conjob. Oh wait... That's already been established.

    Ya, this is not a logically connected argument.

    If you notice, the chart I posted doesn't say what percentage vote for Republican or Democrat, it says whether they want bigger or smaller government. If small government people welcome them here, that isn't going to change the fact they will vote for big government.

    They want bigger government at more than double the rate as non-immigrants. It has nothing to do with who is welcoming them here, it has to do with the fact that we give them welfare and so they come here specifically to take advantage of that.

    As much as I would like to get rid of the welfare state, increasing immigration works against this goal. It is plain as day.
    Last edited by dannno; 02-12-2019 at 01:24 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    As much as I would like to get rid of the welfare state,
    What??? Finish that thought.

    "As much as I'd like to get rid of the welfare state, we need a bigger government first." (I think that's where you were going. )
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    What??? Finish that thought.

    "As much as I'd like to get rid of the welfare state, we need a bigger government first." (I think that's where you were going. )
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    As much as I would like to get rid of the welfare state, increasing immigration works against this goal. It is plain as day.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  13. #11
    You really need to come up with better arguments that convince more people than just yourself.

    My arguments are convincing because they are logical and make sense. They are based on simple facts, and simple models of what will definitely happen in the future if we take one path, as opposed to another.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    No.
    (To be clear, dannno... I don't want to artificially increase immigration any more that I want to artificially limit it. But I think where we differ is that I do understand that our current policies are what is creating the artificial increase. And you don't reward government with more government for a problem that big government caused.)
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  15. #13
    Plus you just make $#@! up on the fly.. I didn't mention anything about Republicans or Democrats. I showed you a chart that clearly shows people who are coming here, specifically to go on welfare, want bigger government at a far higher rate than current citizens.. which makes complete sense that they would want that.

    Regardless of parties, regardless of what they do, we are bringing people in who want bigger government. How will we ever have smaller government if we bring people in who want bigger government, luring them in with stolen tax money?? How is that ok with you?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    You really need to come up with better arguments that convince more people than just yourself.

    My arguments are convincing because they are logical and make sense. They are based on simple facts, and simple models of what will definitely happen in the future if we take one path, as opposed to another.
    Oh please. Your arguments were created in a pipe.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    (To be clear, dannno... I don't want to artificially increase immigration any more that I want to artificially limit it. But I think where we differ is that I do understand that our current policies are what is creating the artificial increase. And you don't reward government with more government for a problem that big government caused.)
    I understand that the reason they are coming here is because of our welfare policies just as well as you. In fact, it's sort of like prostitution. The prostitute sleeps with the John because he gives her money. Without the money, she doesn't sleep with him. Conversely, we give immigrants money to come here. Without the money, they wouldn't come here. They are coming here for money -- not because they like our country, or our culture, or anything like that. They are coming here like prostitutes with their hands out.

    We both agree welfare policies are the problem.. so how do you get rid of welfare by bringing in more people who not only go on welfare at a higher rate, but want more welfare at a higher rate?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    We both agree welfare policies are the problem.. so how do you get rid of welfare by bringing in more people who not only go on welfare at a higher rate, but want more welfare at a higher rate?
    Maybe you focus your attention on the real villains (your government) instead of the patsies?? Your government loves it when you blame anyone else! (and it makes you collectivize individuals - they love that, too!)
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    I know you are hell-bent on collectivizing them, but that's not how it works. "They", after they become citizens, vote for whoever they want. Most of them will choose to vote for the people who were welcoming to them.
    Pff. If that were the case, the libertarians would be running the show in California right now. Methinks there is more to it than 'not smiling enough'.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    Pff. If that were the case, the libertarians would be running the show in California right now. Methinks there is more to it than 'not smiling enough'.
    It's the artificially-created incentives.

    Democrats say, "come here and we'll take care of you and give you free stuff!"
    Republicans say, "we don't want your kind and we'll treat you like $#@! when you get here."

    Now, think about which kind of immigrants are going to respond to which message? The immigrants you don't want will come and the immigrants you do want will stay away.

    Without welfare, libertarians say, "please come! You won't get anything for free, but if you make this country better, you will be rewarded!" <-that's the message that encourages the right immigrants. And they will vote.

    It's not about smiling - it's about removing the government-created problems and letting liberty work. The alternative is a continued wedge issue with neither side EVER winning (because it drives ratings, fundraising, and votes.) It's that alternative that gives you big government no matter which side you think is winning at any given point.
    Last edited by CaptUSA; 02-12-2019 at 02:44 PM.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    I'd give 'em everything they want. In exchange for a total dismantling of the welfare state. Including immigrants and native-born citizens. I'd even throw in a stop to the war on drugs, which they 'say' they also want.

    You see?? I understand compromise.


    Oh, but then immigration wouldn't be a problem anymore and your political leaders wouldn't be able to use it as a wedge issue for their fundraising and ratings...
    It would still be a problem, they would come here for the prosperity and impose communism.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Slave Mentality View Post
    The USA can't compete with 3rd world countries in this globalized market. Period. That is unless we step down to meet the 3rd world so we can live on $1.27 a day too. That is the plan.

    Has anyone considered that our government and corporations (one in the same) has decided we NEED these people just to be able to compete in the 21st century? Seriously, do we expect a population of sick, dumb, and fat dependents to keep USA #1 forever? $#@!ing please. Everyone keeps running around claiming we are so great, when in reality we are getting our asses kicked. Our big guns are the only thing keeping the charade going.

    You ever think that the USA government needs hoards of 3rd worlders more than they need YOU? Our whole country has a big $#@!ing participation trophy hanging around its fiat neck.

    We are being eased into our future. Sucks, huh?
    That is garbage, the only things in our way are taxes, regulations and government collaboration with hostile foreigners engaging in trade warfare against us.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    I know you are hell-bent on collectivizing them, but that's not how it works. "They", after they become citizens, vote for whoever they want. Most of them will choose to vote for the people who were welcoming to them. Unfortunately, the ones who are welcoming them also want a bigger welfare state. And the ones who are openly hostile to them only pretend to want a smaller welfare state. Because the government grows and liberty shrinks regardless of which party is in power - and this has been proven over and over again every time it changes hands!

    So if your goal is to stop immigration because you think it'll mean a smaller government, then you're disregarding individual human beings for no purpose.

    Once again, the government has succeeded in getting you to blame other people for the problems that the government has caused. How hard is it to figure out how bad you're being played?? I mean, it's like you want to fall for the conjob. Oh wait... That's already been established.
    That is nonsense, they vote for the people who offer them free stuff at home and they vote for them here, the Republicans have bent over backwards reaching out to them but they never offered them as much free stuff and the idiot Libertarians have embraced them completely but they don't offer them free stuff, and they still vote for the most fee stuff.

    The aren't welcomed because they vote for the free stuff, you have it backwards.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    (To be clear, dannno... I don't want to artificially increase immigration any more that I want to artificially limit it. But I think where we differ is that I do understand that our current policies are what is creating the artificial increase. And you don't reward government with more government for a problem that big government caused.)
    It isn't growing government to make it do its legitimate job that it has neglected on purpose.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    I understand that the reason they are coming here is because of our welfare policies just as well as you. In fact, it's sort of like prostitution. The prostitute sleeps with the John because he gives her money. Without the money, she doesn't sleep with him. Conversely, we give immigrants money to come here. Without the money, they wouldn't come here. They are coming here for money -- not because they like our country, or our culture, or anything like that. They are coming here like prostitutes with their hands out.

    We both agree welfare policies are the problem.. so how do you get rid of welfare by bringing in more people who not only go on welfare at a higher rate, but want more welfare at a higher rate?
    They come for the prosperity without the free stuff and then vote for the free stuff too.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Maybe you focus your attention on the real villains (your government) instead of the patsies?? Your government loves it when you blame anyone else! (and it makes you collectivize individuals - they love that, too!)
    The people who support the big government are the real enemy, without them the government would have no power.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    It's the artificially-created incentives.

    Democrats say, "come here and we'll take care of you and give you free stuff!"
    Republicans say, "we don't want your kind and we'll treat you like $#@! when you get here."

    Now, think about which kind of immigrants are going to respond to which message? The immigrants you don't want will come and the immigrants you do want will stay away.

    Without welfare, libertarians say, "please come! You won't get anything for free, but if you make this country better, you will be rewarded!" <-that's the message that encourages the right immigrants. And they will vote.

    It's not about smiling - it's about removing the government-created problems and letting liberty work. The alternative is a continued wedge issue with neither side EVER winning (because it drives ratings, fundraising, and votes.) It's that alternative that gives you big government no matter which side you think is winning at any given point.
    We will never be able to end the free stuff if we allow them to keep coming and those that came before the free stuff still predominantly wanted the free stuff and voted to create the free stuff.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The people who support the big government are the real enemy, without them the government would have no power.
    Certainly a "chicken or egg", isn't it? I too am beginning to lean more towards the problem being with the people. I've seen on a local scale too many governments flip 180 degrees due to an influx of —not necessarily foreign immigrants, but transplants from liberal states. (and I'm no more happy to see them coming from socialist states than I am to see the ones who come from socialist countries).


    Of course that sends libertarians into a tailspin. It's easy to just always pin the blame on government, but some fault must lie with the kinds of people who demanded said government. Even in the absence of government, eventually people would demand one.

  31. #27
    Supporting Member
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    Mach's Avatar


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    He has a book, too, it came out in 2080.




    https://www.amazon.com/All-American-.../dp/1786637138



    For three decades, establishment Democrats and Republicans have led a bipartisan assault on immigrants, pulled further and further right by a vocal and organized group of nativists, turning the southern border region into a conflict zone, and breaking up millions of families in the process.

    Daniel Denvir delivers a caustic takedown of liberal triangulation on the border and shows how concessions to "enforcement first" law and order immigration politics hasn't placated the nativists. It has only inflamed them.

    Establishment officials from both parties have allowed the rightwing to dictate our policy on migration, even as popular opinion clamors for a more humane and just approach. With the center collapsed, the left can demand full amnesty now, or cede the ground of national belonging to nativists and white supremacists.
    The common thread to the paradoxes that we encounter daily is the inconsistency of progressivism itself — or rather its ad hoc adoption of any means necessary to be justified by an anointed end, which is the quest for power and control.
    - Victor Davis Hanson
    ~

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    Certainly a "chicken or egg", isn't it? I too am beginning to lean more towards the problem being with the people. I've seen on a local scale too many governments flip 180 degrees due to an influx of —not necessarily foreign immigrants, but transplants from liberal states. (and I'm no more happy to see them coming from socialist states than I am to see the ones who come from socialist countries).


    Of course that sends libertarians into a tailspin. It's easy to just always pin the blame on government, but some fault must lie with the kinds of people who demanded said government. Even in the absence of government, eventually people would demand one.
    Exactly, that is why culture is so important and tight immigration controls are essential to the preservation of liberty.

    We will not be able to convert half the country to libertarianism and therefore we will have to separate from them or fight them literally if we are ever to restore freedom.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    He has a book, too, it came out in 2080.




    https://www.amazon.com/All-American-.../dp/1786637138
    What nonsense, the immigration debate has drifted farther and farther left until it finally shocked people into a reaction.
    Only token moves were made towards border security in an attempt to stall the reaction.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    Of course that sends libertarians into a tailspin. It's easy to just always pin the blame on government, but some fault must lie with the kinds of people who demanded said government. Even in the absence of government, eventually people would demand one.
    I blame government education, that scar given to us from the first progressive era and expanded ever since. It changes the minds of free people. Much like prison, it divides the children into cliques and pits them against each other and forces them to band together for protection, instilling a collectivist mindset. Meanwhile, it pretends to give them knowledge when virtual none of them ever learn to think - free-thinking is punished. What they do learn is obedience. Hell, it so warps the minds of children that they actually grow up believing the only way to prevent the government from growing too powerful is to give the government more power.

    You don't get that kind of mindset from a free person. Unfortunately, there are very few free people left. So yeah, blame this group or that - because nearly ALL people demand more government. They just want it to serve their side of the cafeteria, first.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

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