AAA - At 20F an electric vehicle loses over 40% of it's range.

[Anti Federalist]

Now, keep in mind that unless The Great Orange One repeals, in a significant fashion, current regulatory fatwas, you will not be able to buy a new car that is not an EV of some sort, as mileage and emissions fatwas are going to be in place around 2025 that will mandate a mileage and emission rating that is not achievable with current or any new technology in the works.

So these gimped up golf carts are your future.


AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range. Even turning on the car drains power

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/06/aaa-...d-weather.html

3:59 PM ET Thu, 7 Feb 2019 | 01:36

Hoping to increase the appeal of their battery-electric vehicles, automakers have begun rolling out an assortment of "long-range" models, such as the Tesla Model 3, Chevrolet Bolt EV, Jaguar I-Pace and Nissan Leaf Plus.

Under ideal conditions, these products can deliver more than 200 miles per charge and, in some cases, even 300. But as many owners discovered last week as winter storms slammed much of the country, cold weather does not qualify as "ideal." A new AAA study finds that when the thermometer dropped to 20 degrees Fahrenheit, range fell by an average of 41 percent on the five models it tested.

"We found that the impact of temperature on EVs is significantly more than we expected," said Greg Brannon, AAA's director of automotive engineering.

Some EV drivers — including this correspondent — recently found that range can drop by half when the mercury tumbles into negative territory. The AAA study appears to be the first to have used standard, repeatable methodology to confirm the problem and compare the effect of winter temperatures on different models.

Visitors look at a BMW i3 electric automobile during the Paris Motor Show on October 14, 2014 in Paris, France
Chesnot | Getty Images
Visitors look at a BMW i3 electric automobile during the Paris Motor Show on October 14, 2014 in Paris, France
Several surprises emerged from the research, according to Brannon, starting with the fact that the impact on range was pretty much uniform among the cars tested: the BMW i3s, the Chevrolet Bolt EV, the Nissan Leaf, the Tesla Model S and the Volkswagen e-Golf.

"It's something all automakers are going to have to deal with as they push for further EV deployment because it's something that could surprise consumers," said Brannon.

Different factors can affect the loss of range, he and other experts have noted. Simply turning on the electric vehicles AAA studied in 20 degree weather revealed a 12 percent loss in range. On a vehicle like the Chevy Bolt, with an EPA rating of 238 miles per charge, that would drop range to 209 miles. But that part of the test assumed operating the vehicle with cabin heat and seat heaters turned off.

Brannon said using climate control revealed an even bigger surprise: Range dipped by an average 41 percent — which would bring an EV like the Bolt down to just 140 miles per charge.

The problem is that unlike a car with an internal combustion engine that can warm the cabin with waste heat, EVs have to tape into their batteries to power the climate control system.

Part of the problem, he said, is that "lithium-ion batteries like the same sort of temperatures that we do, around 70 degrees."

Much below that and the chemistry that's used to store energy runs into various problems. Among other things, battery components develop increased resistance that limits how much power they can hold, as well as how fast a battery pack can be charged or discharged, said Timothy Grewe, chief engineer for electric propulsion systems at General Motors.

Grewe has experienced sharp reductions in the range of his own Chevy Bolt, but he also said there are ways to limit the impact of cold weather. That includes storing a battery car in a garage, preferably one that's heated. And wherever it is parked, it helps to keep the EV plugged in. Onboard electronics will prevent overcharging. But many battery vehicles are programmed to use some of the energy from the grid to keep the battery pack warm, improving its efficiency.

Motorists are also advised to "precondition" their EVs, Grewe and Brannon said. That means heating up the cabin while still connected to the grid, rather than drawing energy from the battery pack. Most new battery-electric vehicles have custom smartphone apps that allow a driver to switch on cabin heat remotely when plugged in. Commuters can even preprogram the system to automatically start at a particular time of day.

While cold weather is especially hard on range, batteries also don't like hot weather, said Brannon. "Much like when it's cold, in hot weather EVs suffer some decrease in range, but not as much as in the cold."

The AAA study found range fell 4 percent from EPA numbers at 95 degrees. But, again, that number was assuming the motorist didn't mind sweating. Turn the climate control system down to 70 degrees, AAA found and range fell by 17 percent.

Tesla emailed a statement that disputed AAA's findings, saying the report exaggerates the impact that cold weather has on its electric vehicles' range. The company didn't provide data saying how much range is lost in cold temperatures.

"Based on real-world data from our fleet, which includes millions of long trips taken by real Model S customers, we know with certainty that, even when using heating and air conditioning, the average Model S customer doesn't experience anywhere near that decrease in range at 20 degrees Fahrenheit," the company said in a statement. "And the decrease in range at 95 degrees Fahrenheit is roughly 1 percent."

One thing that EVs and conventional vehicles have in common is that energy efficiency — whether measured by range or miles per gallon — can be affected by a variety of factors. These can include your driving style, as well as the terrain.

Do a lot of hill climbing and you're going to use energy faster. EVs, however, are especially sensitive to any accessory drawing power, whether the car's climate control or even headlights, meaning that driving at night, whatever the weather, will hurt range.

[Anti Federalist]

A Cold Breeze for EVs

https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2019...reeze-for-evs/

By eric - February 11, 2019

There’s only so much lipstick you can put on a pig. Eventually, even Stevie Wonder can tell what it is – if only by feel.

Well, some EV owners were feeling mighty cold last week. Nervous, too. About the effect of cold weather on their electric cars. Apparently, no one told them that using electrically powered accessories – like the heater – draws power from the battery which propels the electric car.

Resulting in it being propelled less far.

Nor that batteries suffer a kind of erectile dysfunction in cold weather. They become flaccid, sooner.

Less range, again.

But – for the very first time – the general press actually reported this.

CNBC headlined their story with the news that “Electric car owners have discovered cold weather saps batteries faster.” This being news right up there with the Flash bell-ringer that running the air conditioner in July will increase your power bill.

The CNBC story quotes a study done by the American Automobile Association on the effect of cold weather on electric car performance. Several models were tested, including the Tesla 3, Nissan Leaf, Chevy Bolt, VW eGolf and BMW i3.

AAA found that, on average, when the outside air temperature falls to 20 degrees, the advertised best-case range of these EVs fell by 41 percent.

Some by half.

Extra! Extra! Read all about it (here).

This is even worse than it sounds, actually – because EVs start out with best-case ranges that are far less than those of almost any non-electric car.

Especially the lower-cost models.

For example, the Nissan Leaf – at $30,000, it’s the lowest priced EV on the market – touts a best-case range of 150 miles.

This is already less than half the range of any non-electric car. For an economy car, it’s pitiful. The Nissan Versa – similar to the Leaf in size but about half the price – averages 34 MPG and has a 10.8 gallon tank. Thus, it can travel about 340 miles before it runs dry – no matter how cold it is outside.

The Leaf’s range less 41 percent is about a fourth the range of almost any non-electric car.

Which is a problem compounded by the recharge problem.

An EV like the Leaf that’s had its range almost cut in half by cold weather can only recover a portion of that range at a “fast” charger – so about 80 percent of the 40-something percent. This because of the way EV batteries charge; or rather, the precautions during recharging at a “fast” charger, which are necessary to avoid damaging the battery, or shortening its useful life.

There is a rough analogy, if you’re familiar with propane gas tanks – such as used by people in the country to power house heaters and such. The tanks can only be refilled to 80 percent, too. So, a tank that could physically hold 100 gallons actually only holds 80.

The difference is the propane truck can refill the tank to 80 percent full in just a few minutes, regardless of the weather.

Recharging the electric car at a “fast” charger requires cooling your heels for at least 30-45 minutes.

In the cold, remember.

Most “fast” chargers are not located inside.

And because the charge/range of other EVs will also have been gimped by the cold, there are likely to be lines at these “fast” chargers (see my piece here about the issue of EV charging station throughput).

There are nowhere near enough “fast” chargers in existence to accommodate the number of EVs already out there under “best case” conditions. The ratio of cars needing to charge up vs. the number of available places to charge up will increase in cold weather.

So, just think:

Your electric car – which has had its best-case range of 150 miles reduced by cold weather to 70 or 80 miles (better turn down the heat) will need to find a place to recharge 40-50 percent sooner – and when you do find it, you’ll wait at least 30-45 minutes (assuming you find a spot not already in use by another EV) to recover about 80 percent of the 70-80 miles’ cold-gimped range.

Which means you can go about 50 miles before you’ll need to plug in . . . again.

This isn’t just a hassle. It’s potentially lethal.

What if you find yourself stuck in gridlocked traffic because of weather – or an accident? It’s true EVs use less power when not moving, but the heater is an energy hog. It’s also essential to life when it’s minus 10 degrees outside. What do you do? Turn off the heat to preserve battery charge – at the expense of preserving your life?

You can use an IC car as a life preserver if you find yourself immobilized by a blizzard; even with a half-full tank, you can stay warm for a day or more. And you can also creep/crawl in gridlocked traffic for hours without worrying about the car leaving you – literally – out in the cold.

AAA found that “just turning on” an EV when the air temperature is 20 degrees reduced the range of the EVs they studied by 12 percent on average. Use of the heater – and defroster – compounded that. These cars often have heated seats, but best not to use them much, if it’s cold out. Which rather defeats the purpose of having them in the first place.

These are things people ought to be told about.

AAA’s director of automotive engineering Greg Bannon agrees. He says these inconvenient truths may “surprise” people who buy an EV without having been told about them prior to their purchase.

They may also be “surprised” to discover that hot is also a battery-range gimper. Use of the air conditioner in the summer has the same effect as using the heater in winter.

Because AC (like the heater and defroster) uses electricity in an EV. Lots of it.

Of course, you could always just do without. For most people, sweating is just miserable – not lethal.

America is being gulled into electrified Yugos – which haven’t even got the upside of being cheap to buy. And while the Yugo itself may not have worked that well, at least the heater usually did.

Still, it’s nice that the inconvenient truth about EVs – some of them at least – are finally getting a little traction in the general press.

Maybe it’s not be too late to stop this crazy train.

[acptulsa]

You don't even need to be a fly on the wall to know what the conversation is in the MSM boardrooms.

'We should warn people about this. Electric car owners could die otherwise.'

'The government doesn't want us saying bad things about EVs.'

We're having a record cold snap. If EV owners start freezing to death all over the country, that would be worse publicity.'

'How many, do you suppose? We can squelch quite a few of those stories.'

'Probably not enough. Start pulling Facebook memorials and there could be a serious backlash.'

'Well, maybe we give it ninety seconds, then forget about it. That way if somebody dies, we can ignore it as old news.'

[pcosmar]

Yup,,, still a drawback..

Present batteries are fine in the 32f range,, but lose it below..

This was true of Lead acid too. Having lived in sub zero,, it was always an issue.

Expect a new range of Cold Weather Batteries. (workin' on it)

The nice thing is the IMPROVEMENTS in batteries.. makes stuff like this possible.

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...nversion-Tesla

However, it features a new powertrain and a “robust 4-wheel-independent chassis was developed with Art Morrison Enterprises alongside Brembo brakes.”

It is powered by dual electric motors which produce 400 hp and 637 Nm which gives it a 120mph top speed.

The car’s battery is borrowed from a Tesla Performance 85kWh which is “strategically fit throughout the vehicle for exceptional weight balance.”

This battery pack allows the car to have between 150-200 miles of range on a single charge and has a 1.5-hour full recharge capability.

I would have finished the body and given it Pretty Paint.

[Anti Federalist]

I would have finished the body and given it Pretty Paint.

That "stressed" or "roached" look is hot right now...bet there are ten coats of Clear Coat on that rust.

[pcosmar]

That "stressed" or "roached" look is hot right now...bet there are ten coats of Clear Coat on that rust.

driven too many of that "style",, and prefer a bit more glow.

I want to stuff a 59 Caddie with a Gigawatt (a literal ton)of stored energy.. but that is me.

[r3volution 3.0]

Fortunately, we have this tremendous device called "a market" which will determine whether and to what extent this product is valuable.

I suspect that, absent the many subsidies for electric cars, more or less nobody would buy them: save a few rich hippies.

And that's fine.

[acptulsa]

I suspect that, absent the many subsidies for electric cars, more or less nobody would buy them: save a few rich hippies.

What was your first clue? The fact that over the last hundred years that's exactly what happened?

[Stratovarious]

Best thing is that in a wreck in wet weather occupants could be electrocuted,
no lawsuit to the manufacturer.

[Itsback]

I saw a video where it took 20 minutes to full charge an electric car was at the charging station. 5 cars in the line and the day is over.

[Anti Federalist]

driven too many of that "style",, and prefer a bit more glow.

I want to stuff a 59 Caddie with a Gigawatt (a literal ton)of stored energy.. but that is me.

That made me chuckle...

[Chester Copperpot]

EVs are less energy efficient than gasoline

[Anti Federalist]

EVs are less energy efficient than gasoline

They are...I would love to see the hard numbers on that.

A few years ago I saw an article from an MIT student that broke it down, and by the time you factored in all the line losses and conversions and battery losses, it worked out to about 10 MPG.

Wish I had saved it because it went down the memory hole.

[devil21]

I guess it's a good thing that the long term plan is for the battery cars to be automated and never allowed to leave city limits. /s

[Chester Copperpot]

They are...I would love to see the hard numbers on that.

A few years ago I saw an article from an MIT student that broke it down, and by the time you factored in all the line losses and conversions and battery losses, it worked out to about 10 MPG.

Wish I had saved it because it went down the memory hole.

i wasnt even taking all that into account.. I was simply going by the premise that those car batteries are like 500lbs or more so the car has to propel that weight in addition to the normal weight of the car. most of the people dont even understand that the consumption of the electricity is irrelevant to the global pollution problem.. its the generation of the electricity which is the concern. some place burning coal 1000 miles away to produce electricity is still polluting the air...

[pcosmar]

i wasnt even taking all that into account.. I was simply going by the premise that those car batteries are like 500lbs or more so the car has to propel that weight in addition to the normal weight of the car. most of the people dont even understand that the consumption of the electricity is irrelevant to the global pollution problem.. its the generation of the electricity which is the concern. some place burning coal 1000 miles away to produce electricity is still polluting the air...

Electricity can be produced by many means.. and even naturally occurring.

Now I am not all sold on the "green Tech" side.. I a mechanic..and a hacker..

I am looking at raw Torque.. 0-60 times.. and performance that blows ICE away..

Energy storage,,, whether liquid in a tank or Electrons in a box..

and I have been watching about 60 trains a day go past me running Electric motive power. and ICE runs a generator..
Massive Tonnage,,efficiently moved.

I wanna play with this stuff.

[Chester Copperpot]

Electricity can be produced by many means.. and even naturally occurring.

Now I am not all sold on the "green Tech" side.. I a mechanic..and a hacker..

I am looking at raw Torque.. 0-60 times.. and performance that blows ICE away..

Energy storage,,, whether liquid in a tank or Electrons in a box..

and I have been watching about 60 trains a day go past me running Electric motive power. and ICE runs a generator..
Massive Tonnage,,efficiently moved.

I wanna play with this stuff.

whats ICE?

[acptulsa]

whats ICE?

Internal combustion engine.

You know. The thing in a locomotive or a hybrid that turns the generator that powers the electric motors that put down torque better than an ICE driving through a more conventional transmission.

[pcosmar]

Internal combustion engine.

You know. The thing in a locomotive or a hybrid that turns the generator that powers the electric motors that put down torque better than an ICE driving through a more conventional transmission.

It can be done better.. but the efficiency is a known fact. (at least I know it,,and it is observable in current transportation.)

of course it won't be good for buggy whip makers.

[Anti Federalist]

I wanna play with this stuff.

You'd get a kick out of the diesel electric system on my new vessel.

10 megawatts of usable power across four gensets.

A really cool system of variable engine speed - variable frequency AC output rectified to DC and then switched sine wave conversion back to 690VAC for main propulsion/480VAC for standard US electrics for the house load.

[pcosmar]

You'd get a kick out of the diesel electric system on my new vessel.

10 megawatts of usable power across four gensets.

A really cool system of variable engine speed - variable frequency AC output rectified to DC and then switched sine wave conversion back to 690VAC for main propulsion/480VAC for standard US electrics for the house load.

I'll bet.. but more than need.
https://www.evwest.com/catalog/produ...i8e6ko1uh1u8s2
The Marine version makes a good Conversion.. Batteries and Supercondencer... with a small genset for Extended long range.

I am rather thinking of the Genset on a small trailer,, so it can be left when not needed (commuting)

[Stratovarious]

i wasnt even taking all that into account.. I was simply going by the premise that those car batteries are like 500lbs or more so the car has to propel that weight in addition to the normal weight of the car. most of the people dont even understand that the consumption of the electricity is irrelevant to the global pollution problem.. its the generation of the electricity which is the concern. some place burning coal 1000 miles away to produce electricity is still polluting the air...

That's the part that I can never seem to get people to understand;
I love electric motors to be sure, but I like reality too.
Most people think Electric is totally green, they don't take into acct that that power comes from
Deadly and totally irresponsible Nuclear power plants, or Coal plants which aren't that bad
today imv, but they themselves shudder at the mention of coal.
They also don't consider the disposal impact, the development impact, the
manufacturing environmental impact.
A myriad of associated aspects completely ignored.

[Swordsmyth]

That's the part that I can never seem to get people to understand;
I love electric motors to be sure, but I like reality too.
Most people think Electric is totally green, they don't take into acct that that power comes from
Deadly and totally irresponsible Nuclear power plants, or Coal plants which aren't that bad
today imv, but they themselves shudder at the mention of coal.
They also don't consider the disposal impact, the development impact, the
manufacturing environmental impact.
A myriad of associated aspects completely ignored.

They don't even like hydro, they want the rivers to be free and unrestrained.

[Stratovarious]

They don't even like hydro, they want the rivers to be free and unrestrained.

Damn , that's hilarious isn't it, and then we have wind power --------- kills birds.lol
I'm an animal lover, but I don't see how that is even happening period,
those blades move like a snail, any bird that can't see that coming is on
his way out anyway.
-
Side note;
We only get about 7 % power from hydro last time I checked, but it is
efficient and we could explore 'tidal' more.

[Stratovarious]

They don't even like hydro, they want the rivers to be free and unrestrained.

''You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Swordsmyth again.''

[Swordsmyth]

Damn , that's hilarious isn't it, and then we have wind power --------- kills birds.lol
I'm an animal lover, but I don't see how that is even happening period,
those blades move like a snail, any bird that can't see that coming is on
his way out anyway.
-
Side note;
We only get about 7 % power from hydro last time I checked, but it is
efficient and we could explore 'tidal' more.

And some kinds of solar fry the birds.
The others cause pollution from Rare Earth mining.

[Stratovarious]

And some kinds of solar fry the birds.
The others cause pollution from Rare Earth mining.

That might be the molten salt system , thousands of mirrors
concentrating onto one collector, mega heat.

[Swordsmyth]

That might be the molten salt system , thousands of mirrors
concentrating onto one collector, mega heat.

[Stratovarious]

I actually literally made a micro power plant using parabolic mirrors,
got 450 f without much trouble, concentrated it on some
bi metallic gizmos that I 'made' and actually got the results
I had intended , sadly and I had guessed ahead of time that
there would be close to zero efficiency, but I had to do it, to prove
to myself it was feasible.
The result was mechanical action , a wheel that would continually
rotate , never even nearly efficient enough to try to interface it with
any kind of magneto to produce any practical power.

[Swordsmyth]

I actually literally made a micro power plant using parabolic mirrors,
got 450 f without much trouble, concentrated it on some
bi metallic gizmos that I 'made' and actually got the results
I had intended , sadly and I had guessed ahead of time that
there would be close to zero efficiency, but I had to do it, to prove
to myself it was feasible.
The result was mechanical action , a wheel that would continually
rotate , never even nearly efficient enough to try to interface it with
any kind of magneto to produce any practical power.

Cool.