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Thread: Donald Trump, Dictator

  1. #1

    Donald Trump, Dictator

    Pot...kettle...black...
    Donald Trump, Dictator

    It is supremely ironic. To respond to the dictatorial mindset and policies of Venezuelan ruler Nicolas Maduro, President Trump has adopted his own dictatorial mindset and policies. Trump obviously believes that the way to fight foreign dictatorship is by adopting dictatorship here at home.

    Consider Trump’s actions with respect to Citgo, the Houston-based refining firm that is owned by the Venezuelan government. It is the eighth-largest US refiner and Venezuela’s top foreign asset.

    To help effect a regime-change operation in Venezuela, Trump simply issued an order that prohibits Citgo from sending any money to the Venezuela government. He’s also ordering that Citgo’s revenues be transferred to Juan Guaidó, the head of the Venezuelan congress, who is claiming that he’s the rightful president of Venezuela, notwithstanding the undisputed fact that no one has ever elected him president.

    We Americans have become so accustomed to the imposition of sanctions on people in foreign countries by US presidents that it’s easy to be blasé about Trump’s actions. But actually his behavior is astounding, especially in that it reflects perfectly the same dictatorial mindset and policies that characterize Maduro.

    First of all, Venezuela and the United States are not at war. Oh, sure, there is there standard Cold War or empire-like verbiage that refers to rivals, adversaries, hegemons, communism, socialism, Russia, China, and Cuba, but indulging in empire-speak or Cold War bugaboos does not rise to the level of war. In an extraordinary action taken during peacetime, Trump has seized and confiscated the assets of a foreign regime and is transferring them to someone else.

    Second, Trump didn’t go to Congress to secure permission to seize and transfer Citgo’s revenue. That’s ordinarily what rulers in a representative democracy are expected to do. Recall what they taught us in our high-school civics classes: Congress enacts the laws and the president enforces the laws. Here, there was no law enacted by Congress authorizing Trump to seize and transfer Citgo’s revenue. He just unilaterally issued an order authorizing US officials to take control over Venezuela’s money.

    That’s precisely how dictators behave. They don’t need no stinking legislature. They don’t have time to jack with elected representatives. They know what’s best for the country. They have to do what is necessary. Fast.

    One of the purest manifestations of this phenomenon took place when military Gen. Augusto Pinochet took the reins of power in Chile after the US-supported regime-change operation in that country. Pinochet’s regime was a classic military dictatorship. He didn’t bother with seeking permission from the Chilean congress to round up some 50,000 people and torture, rape, or kill them. He just issued orders to his national-security state goons to do those dirty deeds. His orders were called “decree laws.” That’s because his decrees had the force of law. That is what dictatorship is all about — the power of the ruler, whether democratically elected or not, to issue decree laws to seize people’s property or to arrest, incarcerate, torture, rape, or kill them.

    That is precisely what Trump’s order seizing Citgo’s revenue is — a decree law. Trump issues the decree and it instantly becomes the law. Everyone is expected to comply with it. That is classic dictatorship.

    Just think: An American president adopting dictatorial mindsets and policies to oppose the dictatorial mindsets and policies of a foreign dictator. Trump obviously believes that his decree laws are making America great again. Ironically, that’s what Maduro also believes about his decree laws.


    http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives...rump-dictator/
    Last edited by PAF; 02-05-2019 at 09:13 AM.
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”



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  3. #2
    It's not "unilateral" or "decreed law". Congress passed laws authorizing the executive branch to impose sanctions. The author deliberately misrepresents this info for his intended audience, because he just wants to be an edgy opposition anarchist.
    I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.

    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 04/20/16
    There won't be a contested convention
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 05/30/17
    The shooting of Gabrielle Gifford was blamed on putting a crosshair on a political map. I wonder what event we'll see justified with pictures like this.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    It's not "unilateral" or "decreed law". Congress passed laws authorizing the executive branch to impose sanctions. The author deliberately misrepresents this info for his intended audience, because he just wants to be an edgy opposition anarchist.

    At the stage we’re at now perhaps anarchy is the rightful remedy ;-)
    “The right to life is the source of all rights—and the right to property is their only implementation. Without property rights, no other rights are possible. Since man has to sustain his life by his own effort, the man who has no right to the product of his effort has no means to sustain his life. The man who produces while others dispose of his product, is a slave.”

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    It's not "unilateral" or "decreed law". Congress passed laws authorizing the executive branch to impose sanctions. The author deliberately misrepresents this info for his intended audience, because he just wants to be an edgy opposition anarchist.
    Hornberger says the exact opposite of what you're claiming. Do you have a source.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    At the stage we’re at now perhaps anarchy is the rightful remedy ;-)
    Putting commie leftists in charge /= anarchy...
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Hornberger says the exact opposite of what you're claiming. Do you have a source.
    Passed by congress: Venezuela Defense of Human Rights and Civil Society Act of 2014.

    The act specifically authorized the president to impose sanctions.

    I'm at work, please obtain any further knowledge for yourself on this topic to your own satisfaction.

    And I got a neg rep from a different forum member for countering disinfo and stating a fact. wow
    Last edited by spudea; 02-05-2019 at 10:55 AM.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    Passed by congress: Venezuela Defense of Human Rights and Civil Society Act of 2014.

    The act specifically authorized the president to impose sanctions.

    I'm at work, please obtain any further knowledge for yourself on this topic to your own satisfaction.

    And I got a neg rep from a different forum member for countering disinfo and stating a fact. wow
    Seizing Citgo's revenue & deferring them elsewhere is NOT sanctions- it is theft.

    And +rep- we don't need to agree on this for me to support you.
    There is no spoon.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    Passed by congress: Venezuela Defense of Human Rights and Civil Society Act of 2014.

    The act specifically authorized the president to impose sanctions.

    I'm at work, please obtain any further knowledge for yourself on this topic to your own satisfaction.

    And I got a neg rep from a different forum member for countering disinfo and stating a fact. wow
    I just read that bill. I can see how Trump could interpret it to authorize him to block the transfer of money from Citgo to the Maduro regime. But I can't see how it authorizes him to order them what they positively must do with that money, including the order for them to transfer it to Guaidó.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    I just read that bill. I can see how Trump could interpret it to authorize him to block the transfer of money from Citgo to the Maduro regime. But I can't see how it authorizes him to order them what they positively must do with that money, including the order for them to transfer it to Guaidó.
    Agreed , and this; ''The act specifically authorized the president to impose sanctions.''
    Doesn't sound like powers' to make them (Citgo) send money to 'someone else' .

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Seizing Citgo's revenue & deferring them elsewhere is NOT sanctions- it is theft.

    And +rep- we don't need to agree on this for me to support you.
    Wow, way to argue a point that isn't even being debated..
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    Agreed , and this; ''The act specifically authorized the president to impose sanctions.''
    Doesn't sound like powers' to make them (Citgo) send money to 'someone else' .
    If we recognize a new president, we didn't send it to 'someone else.' We gave the new president his country's checkbook.
    *******

    Anti-vaxxers, responsible for a 30 percent uptick in totally preventable diseases in the world, have blood on their hands. They shouldn't be considered civilized members of society. If they refuse to listen to a century of scientific studies confirming time and time again that vaccination is an unquestionable good for humanity, then it's time for us to start treating anti-vaxxers as what they are: dangerous and worthy of shame and condemnation. If we can't convince anti-vaxxers to change their minds, we must attach enough social stigma to the delusion that agnostics cease to join them.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    If we recognize a new president, we didn't send it to 'someone else.' We gave the new president his country's checkbook.
    Which is totally unconstitutional.
    There is no spoon.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Wow, way to argue a point that isn't even being debated..
    Reading is your friend.
    There is no spoon.

  16. #14
    It seems Trump is backtracking majority of all the Mega Promises even the wall. Seems Ann Coulter is right.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Reading is your friend.
    Ya, it's my friend, but clearly not yours.

    They are arguing whether congress allowed the President to pass the sanctions or whether he did it without their approval... not whether sanctions are a correct action or not.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Ya, it's my friend, but clearly not yours.

    They are arguing whether congress allowed the President to pass the sanctions or whether he did it without their approval... not whether sanctions are a correct action or not.
    Also, whether or not the sanctions Congress authorized include forcing Citgo to give money to Maduro.

    I think Hornberger is correct when he says Congress did not authorize that.



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  20. #17
    This is the kind of whataboutism that makes me post in these Venezuela threads. Donald Trump is nothing like Maduro. Neither was Obama. Neither was any other US president. Jacob Hornberger is a buffoon and a continual to embarrassment to actual libertarians. He is the worst. And of course he is a Salvador Allende apologist and had to get his usual anti-Pinochet rant in.

    As far as Trump's actions, all he is doing is making sure Maduro doesn't steal the rightful president's assets. This isn't some crazy foreign intervention. This is what Trump should be doing. This is what a libertarian should support.

    And it is worth noting, the Venezuelan government stole billions from US companies. Chavez literally stole US businesses. A US judge already has awarded that the US government seize billions in Citgo's assets and confiscating all the CITGO refineries in the US is apparently on the table to satisfy their debt.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/20/b...zuela-oil.html

    https://www.cnbc.com/video/2018/08/3...ng-seized.html
    https://www.cnbc.com/video/2018/08/3...-and-sold.html
    Last edited by Krugminator2; 02-05-2019 at 03:40 PM.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    If we recognize a new president, we didn't send it to 'someone else.' We gave the new president his country's checkbook.
    He's clearly the irrefutable choice of the people , is he?

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    As far as Trump's actions, all he is doing is making sure Maduro doesn't steal the rightful president's assets. This isn't some crazy foreign intervention. This is what Trump should be doing. This is what a libertarian should support.
    No, that is definitely not what the US president should be doing. Yes, it is a crazy foreign intervention. Deciding who the "rightful president" of some foreign country is (as if there any earthly regime's reign could ever be "rightful") and making sure that somebody gives them "their" assets (when, of course, these would not be their assets even if they were whatever it is you mean when you say "the rightful president"), is the very essence of foreign interventionism. No, it is not something a libertarian should support.

    At any rate, whether you support interventionist foreign policy or not, that doesn't mean that Trump can do this without Congress authorizing it.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 02-05-2019 at 04:54 PM.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Pot...kettle...black...
    Donald Trump, Dictator

    It is supremely ironic. To respond to the dictatorial mindset and policies of Venezuelan ruler Nicolas Maduro, President Trump has adopted his own dictatorial mindset and policies. Trump obviously believes that the way to fight foreign dictatorship is by adopting dictatorship here at home.

    Consider Trump’s actions with respect to Citgo, the Houston-based refining firm that is owned by the Venezuelan government. It is the eighth-largest US refiner and Venezuela’s top foreign asset.

    To help effect a regime-change operation in Venezuela, Trump simply issued an order that prohibits Citgo from sending any money to the Venezuela government. He’s also ordering that Citgo’s revenues be transferred to Juan Guaidó, the head of the Venezuelan congress, who is claiming that he’s the rightful president of Venezuela, notwithstanding the undisputed fact that no one has ever elected him president.

    We Americans have become so accustomed to the imposition of sanctions on people in foreign countries by US presidents that it’s easy to be blasé about Trump’s actions. But actually his behavior is astounding, especially in that it reflects perfectly the same dictatorial mindset and policies that characterize Maduro.

    First of all, Venezuela and the United States are not at war. Oh, sure, there is there standard Cold War or empire-like verbiage that refers to rivals, adversaries, hegemons, communism, socialism, Russia, China, and Cuba, but indulging in empire-speak or Cold War bugaboos does not rise to the level of war. In an extraordinary action taken during peacetime, Trump has seized and confiscated the assets of a foreign regime and is transferring them to someone else.

    Second, Trump didn’t go to Congress to secure permission to seize and transfer Citgo’s revenue. That’s ordinarily what rulers in a representative democracy are expected to do. Recall what they taught us in our high-school civics classes: Congress enacts the laws and the president enforces the laws. Here, there was no law enacted by Congress authorizing Trump to seize and transfer Citgo’s revenue. He just unilaterally issued an order authorizing US officials to take control over Venezuela’s money.

    That’s precisely how dictators behave. They don’t need no stinking legislature. They don’t have time to jack with elected representatives. They know what’s best for the country. They have to do what is necessary. Fast.

    One of the purest manifestations of this phenomenon took place when military Gen. Augusto Pinochet took the reins of power in Chile after the US-supported regime-change operation in that country. Pinochet’s regime was a classic military dictatorship. He didn’t bother with seeking permission from the Chilean congress to round up some 50,000 people and torture, rape, or kill them. He just issued orders to his national-security state goons to do those dirty deeds. His orders were called “decree laws.” That’s because his decrees had the force of law. That is what dictatorship is all about — the power of the ruler, whether democratically elected or not, to issue decree laws to seize people’s property or to arrest, incarcerate, torture, rape, or kill them.

    That is precisely what Trump’s order seizing Citgo’s revenue is — a decree law. Trump issues the decree and it instantly becomes the law. Everyone is expected to comply with it. That is classic dictatorship.

    Just think: An American president adopting dictatorial mindsets and policies to oppose the dictatorial mindsets and policies of a foreign dictator. Trump obviously believes that his decree laws are making America great again. Ironically, that’s what Maduro also believes about his decree laws.


    http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives...rump-dictator/
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  24. #21
    Trump, as in Monsieur DJT.... each time he dreams at night he goes to a place a fascist with a small "f" likes because it is a playpen.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Ya, it's my friend, but clearly not yours.

    They are arguing whether congress allowed the President to pass the sanctions or whether he did it without their approval... not whether sanctions are a correct action or not.
    And I said what the REAL issue is:
    Seizing Citgo's revenue & deferring them elsewhere is NOT sanctions- it is theft.
    There is no spoon.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    And I said what the REAL issue is:
    Seizing Citgo's revenue & deferring them elsewhere is NOT sanctions- it is theft.
    Is it theft? They probably shouldn't be getting any revenue from Citgo. Venezuela just nationalized numerous American and Canadian corporations and they never compensated those companies. Here is what a judge ruled.

    U.S. Judge Authorizes Seizure of Venezuela’s Citgo

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-jud...tgo-1533853734


    “There is a huge amount of judgment coming down the line, and they don’t have the resources to pay.”
    https://www.houstonchronicle.com/bus...O-13261273.php

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Is it theft? They probably shouldn't be getting any revenue from Citgo. Venezuela just nationalized numerous American and Canadian corporations and they never compensated those companies. Here is what a judge ruled.

    U.S. Judge Authorizes Seizure of Venezuela’s Citgo

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-jud...tgo-1533853734


    “There is a huge amount of judgment coming down the line, and they don’t have the resources to pay.”
    https://www.houstonchronicle.com/bus...O-13261273.php

    IF assets were being seized in order to satisfy legitimate judgements, all this information would actually be relevant. However, since we all know good and goddamn well that that is not what's going on here, it amounts to nothing more than a red herring.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Is it theft? They probably shouldn't be getting any revenue from Citgo. Venezuela just nationalized numerous American and Canadian corporations and they never compensated those companies. Here is what a judge ruled.

    U.S. Judge Authorizes Seizure of Venezuela’s Citgo

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-jud...tgo-1533853734


    “There is a huge amount of judgment coming down the line, and they don’t have the resources to pay.”
    https://www.houstonchronicle.com/bus...O-13261273.php
    Sounds like the same background for the 1953 Iranian coup. Countries should never be allowed to manage their own resources.
    There is no spoon.

  30. #26
    He's a great dictator though, the best even.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    IF assets were being seized in order to satisfy legitimate judgements, all this information would actually be relevant. However, since we all know good and goddamn well that that is not what's going on here, it amounts to nothing more than a red herring.
    iknorite? If a guy in a judge costume says something is cool it must be so, ya know?
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    iknorite? If a guy in a judge costume says something is cool it must be so, ya know?
    Kind of. Yeah. Hugo Chavez just took dozens of American businesses. You can't just take businesses. What other process should they go through? The World Trade Organization ruled against Venezuela. Then they didn't pay.

    At some point you just have to just start taking stuff to make things whole.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    You can't just take businesses.
    True.



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