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Thread: Property Rights Discussion

  1. #1

    Property Rights Discussion

    Hey all,

    Things are going to happen either way, even if just parts of it. I am trying to wrap my head around this wall and eminent domain. I am ultra-grounded and can't seem to find any justification for eminent domain but it seems that a number of liberty folks these days are fine and easy with it.

    It's no secret that establishment republicans are backing trump 100%. I've suggested the only conservative solution without spending a dime is to eliminate not only incentives for the immigrants, but also Section 8 Welfare.

    I've held that the Republican platform has always been Property Rights, because of course without Private Property, other rights may just as well not exist. Heck, even Mr. Ziffel stood at his doorway brandishing his shotgun while arguing with the sheriff. Talk about property rights and defending one's freedom!

    Eminent Domain: Take what belongs to you "for the greater good".

    Disrupt somebody's life, force them to pick up and start all over again, the memories which you can't put a price on, blood, sweat and tears put into the land, some for generations before the government was even formed.

    "For the greater good". The Feds abused their power and took at least over 50% out West, 90% in Alaska, and now they want over 2,000 miles along a border. What's to prevent some bureaucrat from drawing another line on a map? At what point will the middle class's only option be to rent Section 8 style homes from the government?

    Of course Walter Block, Ron Paul, Whitehead, all stand firm against Eminent Domain. Even Judge Nap has stated that the 5th is slightly flawed, which I agree, the fed provided a way to give power unto themselves.

    If we are teaching and advocating Free Market principles (not fair market) to our kids and the next generation coming up, and that Private Property Rights Is Essential to Liberty, why the sudden back peddling among liberty folks?
    Last edited by PAF; 01-18-2019 at 07:30 AM.



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  3. #2
    For whose greater good specifically?

    It's always for some people more than others. It's never a true common good.

  4. #3
    The argument for the wall is that its the only vehicle for increasing border security that is politically viable and that not increasing border security costs more than the wall does.

    The argument for the Eminent Domain is that the government will take more from us if we don't increase border security because the costs of not increasing border security are much higher.

    It's hard to argue costs with unfunded liabilities unfunded government programs, missing trillions, and fixed interest rates and no inflation. After all it could be the biggest reduction in government spending in our lifetimes.

  5. #4
    So, what happens when People are treated as Property under Eminent Domain? For example, since Immigrants need money and food, why not just make YOU work for them? Nothing you work for is your own, and because "they have a greater need", they deserve your stuff, your labor, what you would buy with money earned from that labor, and they will not be expected to contribute to the system that supports them. How could such a system not collapse?
    1776 > 1984

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  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Hey all,

    Things are going to happen either way, even if just parts of it. I am trying to wrap my head around this wall and eminent domain. I am ultra-grounded and can't seem to find any justification for eminent domain but it seems that a number of liberty folks these days are fine and easy with it.

    It's no secret that establishment republicans are backing trump 100%. I've suggested the only conservative solution without spending a dime is to eliminate not only incentives for the immigrants, but also Section 8 Welfare. Lately on other trump forums I've been called a muslin libtard terrorist that should be hunted down and shot for treason.

    I've held that the Republican platform has always been Property Rights, because of course without Private Property, other rights may just as well not exist. Heck, even Mr. Ziffel stood at his doorway brandishing his shotgun while arguing with the sheriff. Talk about property rights and defending one's freedom!

    Eminent Domain: Take what belongs to you "for the greater good".

    Disrupt somebody's life, force them to pick up and start all over again, the memories which you can't put a price on, blood, sweat and tears put into the land, some for generations before the government was even formed.

    "For the greater good". The Feds abused their power and took at least over 50% out West, 90% in Alaska, and now they want over 2,000 miles along a border. What's to prevent some bureaucrat from drawing another line on a map? At what point will the middle class's only option be to rent Section 8 style homes from the government?

    Of course Walter Block, Ron Paul, Whitehead, all stand firm against Eminent Domain. Even Judge Nap has stated that the 5th is slightly flawed, which I agree, the fed provided a way to give power unto themselves.

    If we are teaching and advocating Free Market principles (not fair market) to our kids and the next generation coming up, and that Private Property Rights Is Essential to Liberty, why the sudden back peddling among liberty folks?
    Many people believe to be Free one must have a Sovereign.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Many people believe to be Free one must have a Sovereign.
    I would pose the question, what good is a sovereign country if that country can take your property, and if you refuse, the government convinces the 51% that it’s ok to take it by force?

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I would pose the question, what good is a sovereign country if that country can take your property, and if you refuse, the government convinces the 51% that it’s ok to take it by force?
    It reduces that problem to far less than would happen without it.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

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    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

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  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Many people believe to be Free one must have a Sovereign.

    Freedom is slavery.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It reduces that problem to far less than would happen without it.
    By your definition 5 rounds is acceptable over a 15 round clip depending on where one lives if it is for the common good.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    By your definition 5 rounds is acceptable over a 15 round clip depending on where one lives if it is for the common good.
    Not at all, I would absolutely fight against it but it is preferable to being shot for possessing any gun and your analogy is very poor, border defenses against foreign invaders are totally different than tyranny throughout our territory.

    I don't support the wall but it is far better than what we will end up with if nothing is done to stop the invasion.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #11
    Eminent domain has been over-used and abused, no doubt about that.

    Should we focus on people that are for the most part liberty oriented, or should we focus more on elected officials, in positions of power, who are threatening to take away private property because they believe they can utilize it better? Paging Dr. Zhivago...

    New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio is coming under fire for his plan to seize privately owned-buildings. His comments last week are now making headlines after city officials revealed they are actively looking to seize control of up to 40 structures.

    The decision will be made by a team of inspectors and law enforcement agents, and ownership of those buildings would then be handed over to community non-profit organizations.

    De Blasio has claimed the plan is designed to protect tenants from landlords who make the property unlivable.

    “If we stop the illegal harassment and the pushing out of law abiding tenants, it is a fundamental part of how we change the affordable housing picture in this city,” he stated.

    However, De Blasio’s opponent in the 2017 mayoral race, Assembly member Nicole Malliotakis, has blasted the plan as “straight communism.” Malliotakis is the daughter of Cuban immigrants and said her first reaction to this plan was asking the question: “Is this communist Cuba?”
    ...
    https://www.oann.com/critics-accuse-...erty-in-n-y-c/
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    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Eminent domain has been over-used and abused, no doubt about that.

    Should we focus on people that are for the most part liberty oriented, or should we focus more on elected officials, in positions of power, who are threatening to take away private property because they believe they can utilize it better? Paging Dr. Zhivago...
    We should focus on letting in even more people who will elect supermajorities od De Blasios everywhere because it is their right to come here and impose tyranny on us.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Not at all, I would absolutely fight against it but it is preferable to being shot for possessing any gun and your analogy is very poor, border defenses against foreign invaders are totally different than tyranny throughout our territory.

    I don't support the wall but it is far better than what we will end up with if nothing is done to stop the invasion.

    You don’t support it but you feel it is a better option. Makes sense.

    That would be like saying get rid of insensitives for immigrants but keep Section 8. I guess I’m an “extremist” because I want to eliminate both incentives and Section 8.

  16. #14
    If I were a property owner there, I'm pretty sure I would be happy to have a wall on the edge of my property. I believe it would increase the value of the land. Not to mention, I would be negotiated a payout. Seems like a win-win all around.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
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    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

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    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    You don’t support it but you feel it is a better option. Makes sense.

    That would be like saying get rid of insensitives for immigrants but keep Section 8. I guess I’m an “extremist” because I want to eliminate both incentives and Section 8.
    I want massive increases inn patrols on the border but if I get a wall instead that WILL be better than if I get nothing, I want to end all welfare too but if I only get an end to welfare for illegals that WILL be better than if I don't get either.

    You seem to think that getting nothing is better than getting something.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    If I were a property owner there, I'm pretty sure I would be happy to have a wall on the edge of my property. I believe it would increase the value of the land. Not to mention, I would be negotiated a payout. Seems like a win-win all around.
    I would whole-heartedly advocate that on your own dime, provided you don’t convince bureaucrats to tax me to pay for your own private fence/wall.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I would whole-heartedly advocate that on your own dime, provided you don’t convince bureaucrats to tax me to pay for your own private fence/wall.



    Not that you're wrong - in a free market I'd agree. But we have a massive welfare state, and people who want to come in and abuse it and vote for even bigger government. It's self defense. The OP wasn't about that, though. You are concerned about the property owners. I know there are a few who don't want it, and they are featured throughout the news. But I would think most property owners would want something to protect their land and themselves. In addition they get a payout and the value of their land goes up. Sine it's a wall, they aren't really losing much property, it's on the border of their property.
    Last edited by dannno; 01-17-2019 at 11:03 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post



    Not that you're wrong - in a free market I'd agree. But we have a massive welfare state, and people who want to come in and abuse it and vote for even bigger government. It's self defense. The OP wasn't about that, though. You are concerned about the property owners. I know there are a few who don't want it, and they are featured throughout the news. But I would think most property owners would want something to protect their land and themselves. In addition they get a payout and the value of their land goes up. Sine it's a wall, they aren't really losing much property, it's on the border of their property.
    I have been researching the economics of the border and the devastating effects of portions of the wall. The numbers are staggering. It also helps to look at pics of those areas, farming, communities, resorts, tourism and the Rio Grande, etc. Have you at least studied the economic impacts that it will have? Also the numbers of bankruptcies and workers losing their jobs, land values plummeting to zero?

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    I have been researching the economics of the border and the devastating effects of portions of the wall. The numbers are staggering. It also helps to look at pics of those areas, farming, communities, resorts, tourism and the Rio Grande, etc. Have you at least studied the economic impacts that it will have? Also the numbers of bankruptcies and workers losing their jobs, land values plummeting to zero?
    I understand your position and as I keep saying I don't support the wall BUT I have studied the economic and tyranny impact that doing nothing will have on those communities and the entire rest of the country, it is much worse...............MUCH WORSE.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #20
    Back to the topic. Without the 2nd you don’t have the 1st. How important is Property Rights in relation to other natural Rights, and should any Right be taken or forfeited for “the common good”?

    As a follow up, if Private Property owner protected their property to the point of utilizing arms against an individual or government would he/she be within their right? If the community supported that persons property right, and/or each of their own properties, does the principal change or does it stand the same?
    Last edited by PAF; 01-18-2019 at 07:35 AM.



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