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Thread: Kids Donít Damage Womenís Careers ó Men Do

  1. #1

    Kids Donít Damage Womenís Careers ó Men Do

    https://medium.com/s/jessica-valenti...o-eb07cba689b8

    JESSICA VALENTI


    Kids Don’t Damage Women’s Careers — Men Do
    Stop blaming motherhood for a problem created by fathers

    One of the most pernicious modern myths about motherhood is that having kids will damage your career. Women are told that we need to choose between our jobs or our children, or that we’ll spend our most productive work years “juggling” or performing a “balancing act.”


    For those of us uninterested in circus tricks, a bit of perspective: It’s not actually motherhood or kids that derail women’s careers and personal ambitions — it’s men who refuse to do their fair share.


    If fathers did the same kind of work at home that mothers have always done, women’s careers could flourish in ways we haven’t yet imagined. But to get there, we need to stop framing mothers’ workplace woes as an issue of “balance,” and start talking about how men’s domestic negligence makes it so hard for us to succeed.


    Yes, we know American men are doing more than they have in past years: Fathers report spending about eight hours a week on child care, or three times as much as fathers in 1965. (Though keep in mind that the data is self-reported, and men tend to overestimate how much domestic work and child care they do.)


    Men doing more, however, is not the same thing as men doing enough. Despite progress made, mothers are still spending almost twice the amount of time that men do, 14 hours a week, on child care. And not all parenting is tangible, quantifiable work — it’s the mental labor of having kids that’s often the most taxing. It’s easy to split, for example, who packs a school lunch or dresses a child in the morning. But someone also needs to keep track of those days when lunch needs to be bagged for a field trip, or when it’s time to buy new underwear or sneakers. How many dads do you know who could tell you their child’s correct shoe size?


    This kind of invisible work almost always falls on women, and we rarely talk about the impact it has on our professional lives. Imagine if instead of our mind being filled with to-do lists about grocery shopping and dentist appointments, we had available head space for creative thinking around our work and passions. For mothers, the freedom to just think is a privilege.


    Studies also show that fathers continue to have significantly more leisure time than mothers and that mothers use their off time to do chores and child care while fathers use time off for hobbies and relaxing. This, too, is about careers: We know that people who have more leisure time and time for creative activities tend to perform better at work.


    To be sure, there are also “motherhood penalties” in workplaces that have nothing to do with men. (At least, not the ones we share beds with.) Mothers are much less likely to be hired than non-mothers, and when they have children, their wages fall off a cliff. Studies from 2017 led some analysts to come to the conclusion that the wage gap was almost entirely attributable to motherhood. Men, on the other hand, tend to see more money once they have children. Individual and structural discrimination against mothers remains, and that takes a tremendous toll on women’s abilities to achieve in the public sphere.


    But the answers to workplace discrimination are straightforward, and more importantly, they’re finally being recognized as necessary. That men do less child care is widely known, but it’s not widely condemned. We hear again and again, for example, that women just “care” more.


    I promise you, there is nothing fulfilling about remembering that your daughter needs hair ties, or that she’s about to grow out of that pair of sandals. There’s no joy in changing a diaper or clipping tiny toenails. If women in relationships with men seem to be more concerned with these tasks, perhaps it’s because we know it’s not our husbands who will be looked at askance if our kid goes to school sporting inch-long fingernails or ill-fitting shoes.


    Americans need to stop believing that women do the majority of care work because we want to. It’s because we’re expected to, because we’re judged if we don’t, and most of all, because it’s incredibly difficult to find male partners willing to do an equal share of the work.


    So let’s stop saying that it’s motherhood that holds up women’s careers; it’s not the institution of parenthood that makes advancing at work difficult. It’s not our kids. It’s that there’s no chance of equality at work while there’s inequality at home. It’s not that women can’t “have it all,” it’s that men won’t stop taking it.

    WRITTEN BY Jessica Valenti

    Feminist author & columnist.
    Last edited by dannno; 01-11-2019 at 11:53 AM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  3. #2
    Meh, from what I have seen, nowadays it is common for men to be the primary caregiver. I think this is because of the coming of telecommuting and it seems like men are more likely too have a career that can be done from home or at least more flexible hours. I certainly fit that demographic. When I go to pick my kid up, its usually at least 50% fathers doing the pickups. I'm looking forward to the next generation where kids had more time with their fathers.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Meh, from what I have seen, nowadays it is common for men to be the primary caregiver. I think this is because of the coming of telecommuting and it seems like men are more likely too have a career that can be done from home or at least more flexible hours. I certainly fit that demographic. When I go to pick my kid up, its usually at least 50% fathers doing the pickups. I'm looking forward to the next generation where kids had more time with their fathers.
    Since we are now witnessing the results of the first generation coming of age that were raised by a significant number of female led single parent families and/or female dominated "institutions", I'd say that trend can't happen soon enough.

  5. #4
    One thing that the author didn't note is that the reason that some studies show there is income inequality is because men work much longer hours than women. So it wouldn't be fair for the father who is working 45 hours a week to do as much of the home chores and such as the wife who might be working 35 hours a week.

    If the woman is making more money, then it might make sense for her to work 45 hours a week and the man to work 35... but here's the kicker.. Women typically aren't attracted to men who make less money than them - they often won't marry them or stay with them.

    That means these women would need to find a man who makes even more money than them, and so they are in the situation where it would make more sense for them to work less hours and have the husband work overtime... Men who make a lot of money, however, don't see a woman who makes a lot of money as something that adds very much to her attractiveness. This is kind of a paradox that makes it difficult for successful women to have a good relationship when they are unwilling to marry poorer men, and more wealthy men typically don't see them as particularly attractive.

    Women are typically over-protective and so they are great at being the parent through around age 6 or 7. After that, kids need to start to go out and experience things for themselves and start learning their own lessons more independently.

    If women were equal to men in terms of hours worked on the job, childcare, household chores, would they be happier? I would say the answer is "no". Men are going to be making less money on average compared to before, so they will find less men attractive and it will be more difficult for them to find a strong relationship with a partner.

    Decades of studies have shown that women are less happy today than they were in past decades when they were working less and staying at home raising the children.

    Feminism presents a myth that women who are independent are happier than women who are "tied down" in a marriage and don't get to push their full career potential. Somebody should have told them that going to work sucks and being home with your kids and taking care of the home is way better.
    Last edited by dannno; 01-11-2019 at 01:02 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  6. #5

  7. #6
    Such bull$#@!.

    Women are told that we need to choose between our jobs or our children, or that weíll spend our most productive work years ďjugglingĒ or performing a ďbalancing act.Ē

    For those of us uninterested in circus tricks, a bit of perspective: Itís not actually motherhood or kids that derail womenís careers and personal ambitions ó itís men who refuse to do their fair share.

    If fathers did the same kind of work at home that mothers have always done, womenís careers could flourish in ways we havenít yet imagined. But to get there, we need to stop framing mothersí workplace woes as an issue of ďbalance,Ē and start talking about how menís domestic negligence makes it so hard for us to succeed.
    Of what? Housework? I hope the ladies complaining about fair shares of dishes are ready to get out there and do their fair share of yard work, painting, fixing, and auto repair. I like to tease Mr A about not knowing how to operate the dishwasher or the washing machine but I don't know how to do most of crap he does. Generally, the only things I do outside of the house are things I choose to do and vice versa.

    Yes, we know American men are doing more than they have in past years: Fathers report spending about eight hours a week on child care, or three times as much as fathers in 1965. (Though keep in mind that the data is self-reported, and men tend to overestimate how much domestic work and child care they do.)


    Men doing more, however, is not the same thing as men doing enough. Despite progress made, mothers are still spending almost twice the amount of time that men do, 14 hours a week, on child care.
    Wow. That's just sad. I remember when I pulled my kids out of public school people saying how they couldn't stand to be around their kids that much and my response was usually, I love my kids and I love spending time with them. I don't get parents not wanting to be with their children. Why have 'em if you're not going to enjoy them?

    And not all parenting is tangible, quantifiable work ó itís the mental labor of having kids thatís often the most taxing. Itís easy to split, for example, who packs a school lunch or dresses a child in the morning. But someone also needs to keep track of those days when lunch needs to be bagged for a field trip, or when itís time to buy new underwear or sneakers. How many dads do you know who could tell you their childís correct shoe size?

    This kind of invisible work almost always falls on women, and we rarely talk about the impact it has on our professional lives. Imagine if instead of our mind being filled with to-do lists about grocery shopping and dentist appointments, we had available head space for creative thinking around our work and passions. For mothers, the freedom to just think is a privilege.
    Who's fault is this? Mr A is fine with doing any of that stuff but I have to tell him to. Some would argue that I shouldn't have to tell him to but I've taken on the role of "cruise director" because I'm just more social than he is and he'll work if I don't tell him I want him to do something with me. Plus, it just keeps confusion to a minimum. If I handed the calendar to him, everyone would still get to the dentist and have lunches and underwear. He's not an idiot. Beside, on top of all that scheduling I do, I still manage to find time to think about random $#@!.

    BTW, when I was a kid and when my kids were little the dads (my daddy and Mr A) did just about everything when it came to sports. Mr A less than my dad just because of his hours at work.

    Studies also show that fathers continue to have significantly more leisure time than mothers and that mothers use their off time to do chores and child care while fathers use time off for hobbies and relaxing. This, too, is about careers: We know that people who have more leisure time and time for creative activities tend to perform better at work.
    Again, who's fault is that? Weather permitting, Mr A takes 5 hours a week to play golf. Sometimes I join him. If I wanted to take up something on my own besides drinking wine with the neighbors, he wouldn't give a crap.

    Blah...blah...blah.... Itís not that women canít ďhave it all,Ē itís that men wonít stop taking it.
    I. Hate. That. Phrase. No one has it all. Men don't "have it all", either. My dad and my husband sacrificed for me and my kids everyday and if women don't see and appreciate the sacrifices their men make, then they're just selfish $#@!s.

    I'm not saying there aren't days where I wish Mr A would do a few things without being asked BUT I try to remember that men and women communicate differently and take that into consideration. I also try to cut him some slack because there are days he asks me to do things and I just don't do them because I don't want to and then pretend I forgot, lol. He cuts me slack so I owe him slack, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Such bull$#@!.



    Of what? Housework? I hope the ladies complaining about fair shares of dishes are ready to get out there and do their fair share of yard work, painting, fixing, and auto repair. I like to tease Mr A about not knowing how to operate the dishwasher or the washing machine but I don't know how to do most of crap he does. Generally, the only things I do outside of the house are things I choose to do and vice versa.
    Here's the other kicker - men who do 'women's' household chores have a lot less sex than men who refuse to do those things.

    Why the $#@! would a man want to do the dishes and clean the bathroom if the result is that his wife won't $#@! him anymore?

    I really wish this article had a comment section.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Such bull$#@!.



    Of what? Housework? I hope the ladies complaining about fair shares of dishes are ready to get out there and do their fair share of yard work, painting, fixing, and auto repair. I like to tease Mr A about not knowing how to operate the dishwasher or the washing machine but I don't know how to do most of crap he does. Generally, the only things I do outside of the house are things I choose to do and vice versa.



    Wow. That's just sad. I remember when I pulled my kids out of public school people saying how they couldn't stand to be around their kids that much and my response was usually, I love my kids and I love spending time with them. I don't get parents not wanting to be with their children. Why have 'em if you're not going to enjoy them?



    Who's fault is this? Mr A is fine with doing any of that stuff but I have to tell him to. Some would argue that I shouldn't have to tell him to but I've taken on the role of "cruise director" because I'm just more social than he is and he'll work if I don't tell him I want him to do something with me. Plus, it just keeps confusion to a minimum. If I handed the calendar to him, everyone would still get to the dentist and have lunches and underwear. He's not an idiot. Beside, on top of all that scheduling I do, I still manage to find time to think about random $#@!.

    BTW, when I was a kid and when my kids were little the dads (my daddy and Mr A) did just about everything when it came to sports. Mr A less than my dad just because of his hours at work.



    Again, who's fault is that? Weather permitting, Mr A takes 5 hours a week to play golf. Sometimes I join him. If I wanted to take up something on my own besides drinking wine with the neighbors, he wouldn't give a crap.



    I. Hate. That. Phrase. No one has it all. Men don't "have it all", either. My dad and my husband sacrificed for me and my kids everyday and if women don't see and appreciate the sacrifices their men make, then they're just selfish $#@!s.

    I'm not saying there aren't days where I wish Mr A would do a few things without being asked BUT I try to remember that men and women communicate differently and take that into consideration. I also try to cut him some slack because there are days he asks me to do things and I just don't do them because I don't want to and then pretend I forgot, lol. He cuts me slack so I owe him slack, too.
    Can't rep this post enough.
    "The Patriarch"

    willie with tan lines: enjoy the shots and the woman
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    The man did not think clearly. It was almost as if he had brain cancer of something.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Here's the other kicker - men who do 'women's' household chores have a lot less sex than men who refuse to do those things.

    Why the $#@! would a man want to do the dishes and clean the bathroom if the result is that his wife won't $#@! him anymore?

    I really wish this article had a comment section.
    Yah, a man can go his whole life doing the right thing by his family, never a missed bill, great with the kids, loving and supportive so they turn out well, never any drama, never any adultery, handy, everything works when it has to and if it doesn't it gets fixed right away because there is money and credit saved back to handle "rainy days" and his reward is to be turned into an INCEL because wifey doesn't feel like it anymore.

    Beat 'em down and treat 'em like dirt?

    Then they can't keep their hands outta your pants.

    Woemen are insane.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 01-11-2019 at 04:35 PM.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Can't rep this post enough.
    Covered.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Wow. That's just sad. I remember when I pulled my kids out of public school people saying how they couldn't stand to be around their kids that much and my response was usually, I love my kids and I love spending time with them. I don't get parents not wanting to be with their children. Why have 'em if you're not going to enjoy them?
    Yeah I never get over that. I like spending time with my kid. A couple weeks back I offered to take a friends kid with us for a private swim practice when school was out for vacation, her reaction was "YES! Anything to get her out of my hair for awhile." I'm not saying I can't conceive of myself ever saying that, but it would be a rare event when I was swamped with work or something. edit: her daughter was well behaved, had a great time and went best times at her next meet after our practice.
    Last edited by specsaregood; 01-11-2019 at 05:32 PM.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Yeah I never get over that. I like spending time with my kid. A couple weeks back I offered to take a friends kid with us for a private swim practice when school was out for vacation, her reaction was "YES! Anything to get her out of my hair for awhile."
    And these people say it right in front of their kids. It would've broken my heart if my dad talked about what a pain in the ass I was and said he couldn't wait to get rid of me when I was little.

    I'm not saying I can't conceive of myself ever saying that, but it would be a rare event when I was swamped with work or something.
    That's different. Everyone needs time here and there for many valid reasons. I'm talking about the parents who are constantly bitching about taking care of their kids. I just don't get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    And these people say it right in front of their kids. It would've broken my heart if my dad talked about what a pain in the ass I was and said he couldn't wait to get rid of me when I was little.

    That's different. Everyone needs time here and there for many valid reasons. I'm talking about the parents who are constantly bitching about taking care of their kids. I just don't get it.
    Exactly, I don't get it either and it is rampant. If we ever bugged my dad when he was too busy, he solved it by putting us to work.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Such bull$#@!.



    Of what? Housework? I hope the ladies complaining about fair shares of dishes are ready to get out there and do their fair share of yard work, painting, fixing, and auto repair. I like to tease Mr A about not knowing how to operate the dishwasher or the washing machine but I don't know how to do most of crap he does. Generally, the only things I do outside of the house are things I choose to do and vice versa.



    Wow. That's just sad. I remember when I pulled my kids out of public school people saying how they couldn't stand to be around their kids that much and my response was usually, I love my kids and I love spending time with them. I don't get parents not wanting to be with their children. Why have 'em if you're not going to enjoy them?



    Who's fault is this? Mr A is fine with doing any of that stuff but I have to tell him to. Some would argue that I shouldn't have to tell him to but I've taken on the role of "cruise director" because I'm just more social than he is and he'll work if I don't tell him I want him to do something with me. Plus, it just keeps confusion to a minimum. If I handed the calendar to him, everyone would still get to the dentist and have lunches and underwear. He's not an idiot. Beside, on top of all that scheduling I do, I still manage to find time to think about random $#@!.

    BTW, when I was a kid and when my kids were little the dads (my daddy and Mr A) did just about everything when it came to sports. Mr A less than my dad just because of his hours at work.



    Again, who's fault is that? Weather permitting, Mr A takes 5 hours a week to play golf. Sometimes I join him. If I wanted to take up something on my own besides drinking wine with the neighbors, he wouldn't give a crap.



    I. Hate. That. Phrase. No one has it all. Men don't "have it all", either. My dad and my husband sacrificed for me and my kids everyday and if women don't see and appreciate the sacrifices their men make, then they're just selfish $#@!s.

    I'm not saying there aren't days where I wish Mr A would do a few things without being asked BUT I try to remember that men and women communicate differently and take that into consideration. I also try to cut him some slack because there are days he asks me to do things and I just don't do them because I don't want to and then pretend I forgot, lol. He cuts me slack so I owe him slack, too.
    You can not give reputation to the same posts twice.
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  17. #15
    Without men, there wouldn’t be any “careers.”
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Ron Paul know some weird people...



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  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Yeah I never get over that. I like spending time with my kid. A couple weeks back I offered to take a friends kid with us for a private swim practice when school was out for vacation, her reaction was "YES! Anything to get her out of my hair for awhile." I'm not saying I can't conceive of myself ever saying that, but it would be a rare event when I was swamped with work or something. edit: her daughter was well behaved, had a great time and went best times at her next meet after our practice.
    I wonder what the breakdown on that would be, mothers vs fathers, who said that.

    I know I always enjoyed being around my kids, and my son, who has started his maritime career (fifth generation of seafarer), is now gone from the home, and I miss him very much.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    And these people say it right in front of their kids. It would've broken my heart if my dad talked about what a pain in the ass I was and said he couldn't wait to get rid of me when I was little.
    I got not those exact words. but words to that effect, from my old man.

    Created a rift that grew and never healed, even until the day he died.

    That's different. Everyone needs time here and there for many valid reasons. I'm talking about the parents who are constantly bitching about taking care of their kids. I just don't get it.
    Part of could be this insane "helicopter parenting".

    Managing every minute of Junior's day, monitoring every thing he does, dragging him around to soccer, and tennis, and band and swimming and this and that and on and on and on, could get pretty tiresome, especially since that tends to create a whiny and entitled brat who nobody would like to be around.

    Let the poor kid be a kid, and I'll bet these parents would enjoy their company a whole lot more, and tend to look at them more as blood and family instead of whining supercargo.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    I wonder what the breakdown on that would be, mothers vs fathers, who said that.

    I know I always enjoyed being around my kids, and my son, who has started his maritime career (fifth generation of seafarer), is now gone from the home, and I miss him very much.
    In my experience, mothers. It's not just because I was around more mothers, either. Considering I have two sons who did scouts and sports, I was actually around a lot more fathers. I never heard one dad say it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    I wonder what the breakdown on that would be, mothers vs fathers, who said that.
    I'd suspect that it is pretty even as in its a trait that both the mother and father have, if either have it -- those types of people seem to flock together. DW is downstairs playing video games with my kid right now, enjoying it.



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