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Thread: Why Is Money Printing Dishonest?

  1. #31
    Money printing isn't inherently dishonest. The money supply should grow by roughly the average rate of population growth + economic growth. The money supply would expand greatly even under Ron Paul's competing currencies. There is nothing free market or moral about holding the money supply fixed.

    Most people don't realize the money supply increased greatly under the gold standard.

    I like to take the example of the United States. In 1775, the total amount of currency in circulation (primarily gold and silver coins) was an estimated $12 million. In 1900, it was $1,954 million – an increase of 163x!

    During this time period, the amount of gold in the world increased by about 3.4 times, due to mining production.

    However, a gold standard system can make available any amount of currency, as is appropriate given economic needs and the fixed parity value. Just as the U.S. economy grew enormously in the 1775-1900 period, the gold standard system allowed the money supply to also grow enormously, as was appropriate at the time.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanl.../#698df0136c09



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Money printing isn't inherently dishonest. The money supply should grow by roughly the average rate of population growth + economic growth.
    It seems like it should be enough just to factor in economic growth, since population growth is already included in that.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Money printing isn't inherently dishonest. The money supply should grow by roughly the average rate of population growth + economic growth. The money supply would expand greatly even under Ron Paul's competing currencies. There is nothing free market or moral about holding the money supply fixed.

    Most people don't realize the money supply increased greatly under the gold standard.



    https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanl.../#698df0136c09
    Printing allows just one person/group to print as much as they feel like without doing any work, that is immoral, gold/silver mining allows anyone who can to supply demand in the market by doing work, that is far more moral.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Printing allows just one person/group to print as much as they feel like without doing any work, that is immoral, gold/silver mining allows anyone who can to supply demand in the market by doing work, that is far more moral.
    So everybody should be allowed to print money then. Does this "one person" get to keep all the money they print?

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    So everybody should be allowed to print money then.
    NO, anyone should be allowed to MINE precious metals, the market will determine whether it is profitable to do so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Does this "one person" get to keep all the money they print?
    Yes they do, they spend it on anything they want and cause distortions in the market and misallocation of resources.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Printing allows just one person/group to print as much as they feel like without doing any work, that is immoral, gold/silver mining allows anyone who can to supply demand in the market by doing work, that is far more moral.
    1. People wouldn't use a currency that people printed as much as they felt like
    2. Gold mining has little to do with what gives gold its value or the supply of money.

    Usually you hear a couple things about the "money supply" with a gold standard. The first thing you hear is that it is determined by gold mining. The second thing you hear is that it is limited to the amount of gold held "in reserve," whatever that means. Sometimes you hear that it is determined by the "current account balance." All of this is bunk.

    Why did the total currency in circulation expand by 163 times? Because the United States was an expanding economy. The population of the U.S. was 5.24 million in 1800 and 76.21 million in 1900. Plus, each of those people got a lot more wealthy during that time as well, due to the Industrial Revolution. Also, financial systems became a lot more complicated, so there were a lot more monetary transactions.

    A gold standard is a system where supply is expanded (or contracted) to meet the demand for money, such that the value of money remains stable


    http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-...r=Nathan+Lewis

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    1. People wouldn't use a currency that people printed as much as they felt like
    People aren't as smart as you give them credit for and allowing one person/group to print money for nothing is immoral, to the extent that you are right that is one reason people wouldn't want to use such a currency, they don't like being robbed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    2. Gold mining has little to do with what gives gold its value or the supply of money.

    http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-...r=Nathan+Lewis
    It has much to do with it and the other factors involved (like people melting down jewelry) all use gold/silver that was mined in the past.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Printing more is dishonest even if you admit it is unbacked because it steals the value of every other dollar in existence.
    And that is how they rob the savings of people who are trying to get enough money to retire.

    The government doesn't even have to take their money out of the bank, they just make it worth less by diluting it with more and more inflation caused by printing money.

    Those who are retired, find the money they have to spend every month, it worth less than it was the last year.

    They are being robbed by those who print money.
    Last edited by Dr.3D; 01-10-2019 at 03:48 PM.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    So everybody should be allowed to print money then. Does this "one person" get to keep all the money they print?
    By the same token, if it's immoral for everybody else, then it's still immoral for the government.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    By the same token, if it's immoral for everybody else, then it's still immoral for the government.
    Stamping out metal coins or making paper money is still the government printing money. Both are "fiat" because the government declares what the value of each should have.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Stamping out metal coins or making paper money is still the government printing money. Both are "fiat" because the government declares what the value of each should have.
    Wrong, coins are only fiat if their face value isn't determined by their weight and purity.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Wrong, coins are only fiat if their face value isn't determined by their weight and purity.
    All coins have a face value which isn't determined by their weight and purity.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    All coins have a face value which isn't determined by their weight and purity.
    No, that isn't true.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    No, that isn't true.
    Examples? Does this contain $50 worth of gold?



    Is the metal in this coin worth one cent?


  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Examples? Does this contain $50 worth of gold?



    Is the metal in this coin worth one cent?

    THIS contained 1$ of sliver:

    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    THIS contained 1$ of sliver:

    Because government declared that the amount of silver in it was worth $1. They set the market price by fiat- thus "fiat" money. If silver was above that price, people could buy silver from the government instead of a dealer. In a free market is the price of a metal always the same? No.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 01-10-2019 at 07:26 PM.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Because government declared that the amount of silver in it was worth $1. They set the market price by fiat- thus "fiat" money. If silver was above that price, people could buy silver from the government instead of a dealer. In a free market is the price of a metal always the same? No.
    Defining a dollar as X weight of X purity of silver isn't fiat, it is a definition and silver can't be above or below that price, X weight of silver of X purity IS 1 dollar and 1 dollar is X weight of silver of X purity, nobody will sell or buy silver at a different price unless some other factor is involved than the weight and purity.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #48
    silver can't be above or below that price,
    Why can't the price of silver not be above or below a certain price? Not because of a free market but because the government declared it should be so.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Why can't the price of silver not be above or below a certain price? Not because of a free market but because the government declared it should be so.
    Because a dollar would BE an oz. of pure silver or whatever the designated weight was.

    How can an oz. of silver be worth more or less than an oz. of silver?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Stamping out metal coins or making paper money is still the government printing money. Both are "fiat" because the government declares what the value of each should have.
    I'm not quite clear on what you're talking about here. But to keep it simple, again, if whatever it is you're talking about is something that would be immoral for a common person to do (such as printing his own US dollars to use as something the law requires people to accept as legal tender), then it's immoral for the government to do.

    In the case of metal coins, if you're talking about gold and silver, then it is not true that the government can declare what they are worth. Those coins will always be worth what the market determines, which will be a function of the market value of the gold and silver in them. The government doesn't have the power to alter that.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Why can't the price of silver not be above or below a certain price? Not because of a free market but because the government declared it should be so.
    This is absurd.

    The government can do things that manipulate the market, and thus affect the price of silver. But if the government declares by fiat that one of its dollars shall be exchangeable for one ounce of silver, then it's the value of the dollar that the government is setting, not the value of the silver. The value of the silver is determined by the market.

    If, after a time of setting a dollar at the value of one ounce of silver the government changes the law so as to set two dollars to be the value of one ounce of silver, all they will have done is devalue their dollars by one half. The prices of everything in dollars will double. But the prices of everything in ounces of silver will stay the same. Apart from those dollars, what was exchangeable for one ounce of silver before the change will still be exchangeable for one ounce of silver after it. If an ounce of gold was worth 20 ounces of silver before the change (or 20 dollars), it will still be worth 20 ounces of gold (or 40 dollars) after the change.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 01-11-2019 at 08:04 AM.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Examples? Does this contain $50 worth of gold?



    Is the metal in this coin worth one cent?

    In both cases, those coins can be exchanged in the market for other things that the market prices as equal to the value of the metal in them, regardless what number of dollars or cents the government prints on the coin. The government is not able to stop us from being able to use that gold coin in the marketplace as a medium of exchange that is actually worth over $1000 of US currency just by printing the words "50 dollars" on it.

    And note that the government itself will not give you one of those gold coins in exchange for 50 of its dollars, despite the fact that it prints that on them. It will only sell those coins at prices that are determined by the market value of the gold in them.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 01-11-2019 at 08:10 AM.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If printing money is dishonest, wouldn't that make all money illegal? Maybe the government should impound all that illegal currency from everybody.
    Well, a "license" is actually a permit to do something that is otherwise illegal. The FRN is printed by the Treasury but is licensed to the Fed. So that means that the printing of FRN is actually illegal (and Constitutionally it is, gold and silver coinage notation) but a license has been issued to allow the illegality for a period of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by superfluous man
    And note that the government itself will not give you one of those gold coins in exchange for 50 of its dollars, despite the fact that it prints that on them. It will only sell those coins at prices that are determined by the market value of the gold in them.
    But notice that the Treasury values gold at $42.22 per ounce in statute. Seems to me the Treasury is saying that the real MONETARY value is different than the FRN price. FRNs are not money but are instead debt instruments aka promises to pay later in lawful money. The higher that gold climbs in FRN, the bigger the debt is, while the lawful monetary value stays fixed at $42.22. The $42.22 figure is a positive value while the FRN price is a negative value. Hard concept to explain clearly though.

    Hmm....if someone could figure out how to receive gold from the Treasury at statutory value and then arbitrage it on the FRN market, one would be instantly FRN wealthy. I wonder....
    Last edited by devil21; 06-20-2019 at 11:43 AM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    the Treasury values gold at $42.22 per ounce in statute
    Source?

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Source?
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5117
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  30. #56
    The Secretary shall issue gold certificates against gold transferred under subsection (a) of this section. The Secretary may issue gold certificates against other gold held in the Treasury. The Secretary may prescribe the form and denominations of the certificates. The amount of outstanding certificates may be not more than the value (for the purpose of issuing those certificates, of 42 and two-ninths dollars a fine troy ounce) of the gold held against gold certificates. The Secretary shall hold gold in the Treasury equal to the required dollar amount as security for gold certificates issued after January 29, 1934.
    Notice that that price is not for Gold in general or in perpetuity, but strictly for Gold that was transferred under subsection (a) of that section of the Code.

    For dealings in Gold at the present that the Federal Government engages in, there are other statutes that govern what it pays and charges for it, such as the following:
    The Secretary shall pay not more than the average world price for the gold mined under subparagraph (A).
    Each gold bullion coin issued under this subsection shall be sold for an amount the Secretary determines to be appropriate, but not less than the sum of—
    (A) the market value of the bullion at the time of sale; and
    (B) the cost of designing and issuing the coins, including labor, materials, dies, use of machinery, overhead expenses, marketing, and shipping.
    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5112



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  32. #57
    The issue is fiat money. Making a money by decree is tyranny. There should be free market vote on what is an acceptable system of "money".

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Notice that that price is not for Gold in general or in perpetuity, but strictly for Gold that was transferred under subsection (a) of that section of the Code.

    For dealings in Gold at the present that the Federal Government engages in, there are other statutes that govern what it pays and charges for it, such as the following:

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5112
    Yes but that was the gold and the certificates that represent that gold that was transferred as part of the 1930 bankruptcy after the gold confiscation. The "legacy" American gold, if you will, that was put into the Trust that was created and still exists today (that we are all part of, actually). That 8000 tons that's repeated so often. Obviously miners aren't selling new gold for GAEs to the Treasury for $42.22. In other words, Fort Knox (eg) gold is valued at $42.22. Newly minted US Mint gold issues that you buy on the open market is not.
    Last edited by devil21; 06-20-2019 at 02:25 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  34. #59
    Is money meant to be a commodity? Or any finite material as to guarantee a fixed supply. What if you wanted to buy some gold for electronics manufacturing? Would this be considered a destruction of our limited currency?

    Or what if someone performed a service and I replied with an I.O.U. note saying I would return the favor? Is that kind of limited money by decree or does that IOU represent a "Promise to Pay"?

    Is our current system a nationally recognized was of IOU notes and is that necessarily a bad system? It has flexibility to change with the size of our economy and yes unfortunately it can be abused, or sometimes I think the Fed is trying to do damage control in response to the actions of Congress.

    As for Printing Money well does that just get passed out to friends or is that just to beef of lending power of banks? Or in some cases reduce that "Credit"?



    “Language is metaphor in the sense that it not only stores but translates experience from one mode into another. Money is metaphor in the sense that it stores skill and labour and also translates one skill into another.”
    ― Marshall McLuhan, The Gutenberg Galaxy

    I think we're trying to turn Money into something it's not really meant to be. It isn't a commodity product but meant just a means of exchange. With that said, it can be recongized that we do use Metal for coins, but as Zippy is trying to point out, this has nothing to do with the Metal value of those coins.

  35. #60
    Monetary inflation is theft. Ron Paul calls it the inflation tax. It's a different sort of inflation than how people normally define it. It distorts the cost of interest and allows them to sell money for more money while everyone else loses the value of their money to pay for the printed money. The price inflation is delayed and the governments purposely teaches people not to understand math and pit us against eachother so people are forced to help the government cheat other people out of their money so they won't go hungry.

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