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Thread: Why Is Money Printing Dishonest?

  1. #31
    Money printing isn't inherently dishonest. The money supply should grow by roughly the average rate of population growth + economic growth. The money supply would expand greatly even under Ron Paul's competing currencies. There is nothing free market or moral about holding the money supply fixed.

    Most people don't realize the money supply increased greatly under the gold standard.

    I like to take the example of the United States. In 1775, the total amount of currency in circulation (primarily gold and silver coins) was an estimated $12 million. In 1900, it was $1,954 million – an increase of 163x!

    During this time period, the amount of gold in the world increased by about 3.4 times, due to mining production.

    However, a gold standard system can make available any amount of currency, as is appropriate given economic needs and the fixed parity value. Just as the U.S. economy grew enormously in the 1775-1900 period, the gold standard system allowed the money supply to also grow enormously, as was appropriate at the time.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanl.../#698df0136c09



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Money printing isn't inherently dishonest. The money supply should grow by roughly the average rate of population growth + economic growth.
    It seems like it should be enough just to factor in economic growth, since population growth is already included in that.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Money printing isn't inherently dishonest. The money supply should grow by roughly the average rate of population growth + economic growth. The money supply would expand greatly even under Ron Paul's competing currencies. There is nothing free market or moral about holding the money supply fixed.

    Most people don't realize the money supply increased greatly under the gold standard.



    https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanl.../#698df0136c09
    Printing allows just one person/group to print as much as they feel like without doing any work, that is immoral, gold/silver mining allows anyone who can to supply demand in the market by doing work, that is far more moral.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
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    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Printing allows just one person/group to print as much as they feel like without doing any work, that is immoral, gold/silver mining allows anyone who can to supply demand in the market by doing work, that is far more moral.
    So everybody should be allowed to print money then. Does this "one person" get to keep all the money they print?


    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    "Yeah, I have to say these guys(trolls) are pretty sharp. Sort of good to get a challenge and sharpen your thoughts." NorthCarolinaLiberty

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  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    So everybody should be allowed to print money then.
    NO, anyone should be allowed to MINE precious metals, the market will determine whether it is profitable to do so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Does this "one person" get to keep all the money they print?
    Yes they do, they spend it on anything they want and cause distortions in the market and misallocation of resources.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Printing allows just one person/group to print as much as they feel like without doing any work, that is immoral, gold/silver mining allows anyone who can to supply demand in the market by doing work, that is far more moral.
    1. People wouldn't use a currency that people printed as much as they felt like
    2. Gold mining has little to do with what gives gold its value or the supply of money.

    Usually you hear a couple things about the "money supply" with a gold standard. The first thing you hear is that it is determined by gold mining. The second thing you hear is that it is limited to the amount of gold held "in reserve," whatever that means. Sometimes you hear that it is determined by the "current account balance." All of this is bunk.

    Why did the total currency in circulation expand by 163 times? Because the United States was an expanding economy. The population of the U.S. was 5.24 million in 1800 and 76.21 million in 1900. Plus, each of those people got a lot more wealthy during that time as well, due to the Industrial Revolution. Also, financial systems became a lot more complicated, so there were a lot more monetary transactions.

    A gold standard is a system where supply is expanded (or contracted) to meet the demand for money, such that the value of money remains stable


    http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-...r=Nathan+Lewis

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    1. People wouldn't use a currency that people printed as much as they felt like
    People aren't as smart as you give them credit for and allowing one person/group to print money for nothing is immoral, to the extent that you are right that is one reason people wouldn't want to use such a currency, they don't like being robbed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    2. Gold mining has little to do with what gives gold its value or the supply of money.

    http://www.24hgold.com/english/news-...r=Nathan+Lewis
    It has much to do with it and the other factors involved (like people melting down jewelry) all use gold/silver that was mined in the past.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Printing more is dishonest even if you admit it is unbacked because it steals the value of every other dollar in existence.
    And that is how they rob the savings of people who are trying to get enough money to retire.

    The government doesn't even have to take their money out of the bank, they just make it worth less by diluting it with more and more inflation caused by printing money.

    Those who are retired, find the money they have to spend every month, it worth less than it was the last year.

    They are being robbed by those who print money.
    Last edited by Dr.3D; 01-10-2019 at 03:48 PM.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    So everybody should be allowed to print money then. Does this "one person" get to keep all the money they print?
    By the same token, if it's immoral for everybody else, then it's still immoral for the government.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    By the same token, if it's immoral for everybody else, then it's still immoral for the government.
    Stamping out metal coins or making paper money is still the government printing money. Both are "fiat" because the government declares what the value of each should have.


    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    "Yeah, I have to say these guys(trolls) are pretty sharp. Sort of good to get a challenge and sharpen your thoughts." NorthCarolinaLiberty

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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Stamping out metal coins or making paper money is still the government printing money. Both are "fiat" because the government declares what the value of each should have.
    Wrong, coins are only fiat if their face value isn't determined by their weight and purity.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Wrong, coins are only fiat if their face value isn't determined by their weight and purity.
    All coins have a face value which isn't determined by their weight and purity.


    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    "Yeah, I have to say these guys(trolls) are pretty sharp. Sort of good to get a challenge and sharpen your thoughts." NorthCarolinaLiberty

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    All coins have a face value which isn't determined by their weight and purity.
    No, that isn't true.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    No, that isn't true.
    Examples? Does this contain $50 worth of gold?



    Is the metal in this coin worth one cent?



    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    "Yeah, I have to say these guys(trolls) are pretty sharp. Sort of good to get a challenge and sharpen your thoughts." NorthCarolinaLiberty

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Examples? Does this contain $50 worth of gold?



    Is the metal in this coin worth one cent?

    THIS contained 1$ of sliver:

    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    THIS contained 1$ of sliver:

    Because government declared that the amount of silver in it was worth $1. They set the market price by fiat- thus "fiat" money. If silver was above that price, people could buy silver from the government instead of a dealer. In a free market is the price of a metal always the same? No.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 01-10-2019 at 07:26 PM.


    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    "Yeah, I have to say these guys(trolls) are pretty sharp. Sort of good to get a challenge and sharpen your thoughts." NorthCarolinaLiberty

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Because government declared that the amount of silver in it was worth $1. They set the market price by fiat- thus "fiat" money. If silver was above that price, people could buy silver from the government instead of a dealer. In a free market is the price of a metal always the same? No.
    Defining a dollar as X weight of X purity of silver isn't fiat, it is a definition and silver can't be above or below that price, X weight of silver of X purity IS 1 dollar and 1 dollar is X weight of silver of X purity, nobody will sell or buy silver at a different price unless some other factor is involved than the weight and purity.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #48
    silver can't be above or below that price,
    Why can't the price of silver not be above or below a certain price? Not because of a free market but because the government declared it should be so.


    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    "Yeah, I have to say these guys(trolls) are pretty sharp. Sort of good to get a challenge and sharpen your thoughts." NorthCarolinaLiberty

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Why can't the price of silver not be above or below a certain price? Not because of a free market but because the government declared it should be so.
    Because a dollar would BE an oz. of pure silver or whatever the designated weight was.

    How can an oz. of silver be worth more or less than an oz. of silver?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Stamping out metal coins or making paper money is still the government printing money. Both are "fiat" because the government declares what the value of each should have.
    I'm not quite clear on what you're talking about here. But to keep it simple, again, if whatever it is you're talking about is something that would be immoral for a common person to do (such as printing his own US dollars to use as something the law requires people to accept as legal tender), then it's immoral for the government to do.

    In the case of metal coins, if you're talking about gold and silver, then it is not true that the government can declare what they are worth. Those coins will always be worth what the market determines, which will be a function of the market value of the gold and silver in them. The government doesn't have the power to alter that.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Why can't the price of silver not be above or below a certain price? Not because of a free market but because the government declared it should be so.
    This is absurd.

    The government can do things that manipulate the market, and thus affect the price of silver. But if the government declares by fiat that one of its dollars shall be exchangeable for one ounce of silver, then it's the value of the dollar that the government is setting, not the value of the silver. The value of the silver is determined by the market.

    If, after a time of setting a dollar at the value of one ounce of silver the government changes the law so as to set two dollars to be the value of one ounce of silver, all they will have done is devalue their dollars by one half. The prices of everything in dollars will double. But the prices of everything in ounces of silver will stay the same. Apart from those dollars, what was exchangeable for one ounce of silver before the change will still be exchangeable for one ounce of silver after it. If an ounce of gold was worth 20 ounces of silver before the change (or 20 dollars), it will still be worth 20 ounces of gold (or 40 dollars) after the change.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 01-11-2019 at 08:04 AM.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Examples? Does this contain $50 worth of gold?



    Is the metal in this coin worth one cent?

    In both cases, those coins can be exchanged in the market for other things that the market prices as equal to the value of the metal in them, regardless what number of dollars or cents the government prints on the coin. The government is not able to stop us from being able to use that gold coin in the marketplace as a medium of exchange that is actually worth over $1000 of US currency just by printing the words "50 dollars" on it.

    And note that the government itself will not give you one of those gold coins in exchange for 50 of its dollars, despite the fact that it prints that on them. It will only sell those coins at prices that are determined by the market value of the gold in them.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 01-11-2019 at 08:10 AM.

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