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Thread: The Vaccination Debate

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Actually herd immunity is the idea that if enough people in a population are vaccinated or otherwise immune, the disease the vaccine prevents would be too rare to infect much of those not vaccinated- the vaccinated herd protects the unvaccinated group.

    When the protected group gets below a certain amount, the protection is no longer sufficient for the unprotected to be relatively safe. https://www.ovg.ox.ac.uk/news/herd-i...w-does-it-work

    The unvaccinated do not have protection themselves but rely on others being protected. The immunity can come either from being vaccinated or getting the disease yourself.
    Your just as wrong as ever. Natural immunity is what it was all about. Vaccines cause shedding and create more problems. That's why most of the Measles vaccines failed and people were told they needed another booster. But carry on with your deception, maybe some other dolt will believe you.
    My website: https://www.theherbsofthefield.com/

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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Your just as wrong as ever. Natural immunity is what it was all about. Vaccines cause shedding and create more problems. That's why most of the Measles vaccines failed and people were told they needed another booster. But carry on with your deception, maybe some other dolt will believe you.
    The source of the immunity is not what matters- it is the existence of the immunity which protects those without their own immunity. At the time of his paper, vaccines were more rare. He looked at measles in Boston and there was no measles vaccine until 30 years later (the first licensed measles vaccine was in 1963). https://www.historyofvaccines.org/timeline/measles

    Vaccine shedding is theoretically only possible with a live virus vaccine and few (only three) are live virus. There has not been a single documented case outside a laboratory though. Measles is not a live virus vaccine so it is impossible to shed. https://www.immunizeusa.org/blog/201...cine-shedding/
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 01-07-2019 at 07:16 PM.


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  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    $#@! you. Where is the proof that I dropped out of High School and have no credentials? Answer the question and stop dodging it.

    Herd Immunity is, in fact, a "Theory" by a man named, Arthur W. Hedrich and had nothing to do with vaccines. Herd Immunity, is about natural immunity from diseases that children would get, such as chicken pox, measles and other childhood disease which would give them lifetime immunity. However pro-vaxxers took on Herd Immunity as gospel with regards to vaccines and it has been debunked many times here, by scientist and medical doctors. So your point is moot.

    Ref:
    https://kellybroganmd.com/herd-immunity-fact-fiction/
    https://thevaccinereaction.org/2018/...vaccination-2/
    https://thevaccinereaction.org/2017/...dly-disproven/
    Oh look - she's going to avoid the actual topic of the thread while trying to force me to prove a negative. And changing the definition of herd immunity, too. This is what always happens.

    JFC - I know I have explained theory in the past. Everything in science is a theory. Nothing is ever 100% proved. Every single thing is a hypothesis being tested over and over and over.

    Your links are garbage, btw. Here's a real scientific paper, not a blog:

    The term herd immunity has been used by various authors to conform to different definitions. Earlier this situation had been identified but not corrected. We propose that it should have precise meaning for which purpose a new definition is offered: "the proportion of subjects with immunity in a given population". This definition dissociates herd immunity from the indirect protection observed in the unimmunised segment of a population in which a large proportion is immunised, for which the term 'herd effect' is proposed. It is defined as: "the reduction of infection or disease in the unimmunised segment as a result of immunising a proportion of the population". Herd immunity can be measured by testing a sample of the population for the presence of the chosen immune parameter. Herd effect can be measured by quantifying the decline in incidence in the unimmunised segment of a population in which an immunisation programme is instituted. Herd immunity applies to immunisation or infection, human to human transmitted or otherwise. On the other hand, herd effect applies to immunisation or other health interventions which reduce the probability of transmission, confined to infections transmitted human to human, directly or via vector. The induced herd immunity of a given vaccine exhibits geographic variation as it depends upon coverage and efficacy of the vaccine, both of which can vary geographically. Herd effect is determined by herd immunity as well as the force of transmission of the corresponding infection. Clear understanding of these phenomena and their relationships will help improve the design of effective and efficient immunisation programmes aimed at control, elimination or eradication of vaccine preventable infectious diseases.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The source of the immunity is not what matters- it is the existence of the immunity which protects those without their own immunity. At the time of his paper, vaccines were more rare.

    Vaccine shedding is theoretically only possible with a live virus vaccine and few are live virus. There has not been a single documented case outside a laboratory though. Measles is not a live virus vaccine so it is impossible to shed. https://www.immunizeusa.org/blog/201...cine-shedding/
    We have explained this over and over and over, and yet here she still is. The conversation won't ever advance because she literally refuses to learn.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Your just as wrong as ever. Natural immunity is what it was all about. Vaccines cause shedding and create more problems. That's why most of the Measles vaccines failed and people were told they needed another booster. But carry on with your deception, maybe some other dolt will believe you.
    You are just flat out wrong. About everything.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  8. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    It has no useful purpose.
    You have failed to persuade me. Your argument that we should simply believe people with fancy hats and fine degrees from elite schools just doesn't fly with me. If I accepted your premise I would also have to say that Keynesian are right and Mises is wrong and that is just plain stupid. Maybe you also subscribe to the school of thought that the science is settling on global warming, but I don't know that you would be correct. Sure lots of highly educated people repeat this phrase but it doesn't make it true. From what I hear there are people that swear the Earth is flat, but that doesn't make it so.

    Enjoy blindly accepting whatever government workers and socialist schools feed you. Not for me.
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  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The source of the immunity is not what matters- it is the existence of the immunity which protects those without their own immunity. At the time of his paper, vaccines were more rare. He looked at measles iin Boston and there was no measles vaccine until 30 years later (the first licensed measles vaccine was in 1963). https://www.historyofvaccines.org/timeline/measles

    Vaccine shedding is theoretically only possible with a live virus vaccine and few (only three) are live virus. There has not been a single documented case outside a laboratory though. Measles is not a live virus vaccine so it is impossible to shed. https://www.immunizeusa.org/blog/201...cine-shedding/
    The hallmark of vaccination is that it bypasses the cell-mediated response in favor of a “mock infection,” while encouraging a disproportionate humoral response. According to an elegant new book by Dr. Thomas Cowan (Vaccines, Autoimmunity, and the Changing Nature of Childhood Illness), this “reckless” suppression of the cell-mediated response is a very bad idea: “Interfering with such a precise immune response” (the result of “millions of years of evolutionary fine-tuning”) carries with it “massive risk of unintended consequence[s]”—and those consequences are now manifesting in the form of an autoimmunity crisis. Cowan states:

    “The deliberate provocation of antibodies without prior cell-mediated activity produces an imbalance in our immune system and a state of excessive antibody production. This excessive antibody production actually defines autoimmune disease. …With millions of people suffering from autoimmune disease, at a number unheard of before the introduction of mass vaccination programs, how can this connection be deemed controversial?” [Emphasis in original]

    Forfeiting protections
    Immunologic dysregulation—including dysfunction of the type brought about by vaccination—is associated not just with autoimmunity but also with cancer, and childhood cancers are skyrocketing. In contrast, many of the once-universal childhood illnesses were, in fact, protective against various cancers. Stated another way, acute infections, and especially those that caused fever, were historically “antagonistic to cancer.” For example:

    Naturally acquired mumps engendered immunity to ovarian cancer through antibodies against a cancer-associated antigen.
    Individuals who experienced fever-inducing infectious illnesses in childhood (such as rubella and chickenpox) had a lower risk of non-breast cancers, including melanoma and ovarian cancer.
    Acute childhood infections protected against Hodgkin’s lymphoma, and measles, in particular, protected against non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma.
    …children who successfully go through measles…have less heart disease, arthritis, allergies, autoimmune diseases, and overall better health than those who never get measles.
    Frenzied media stories about “measles outbreaks” notwithstanding, there are multiple reasons to view natural measles infection in childhood as beneficial. As summarized in Cowan’s book, “children who successfully go through measles…have less heart disease, arthritis, allergies, autoimmune diseases, and overall better health than those who never get measles.” Children’s Health Defense has noted previously how the benefits of measles used to be taken for granted—until, says Cowan, the vaccine came along “and changed the way we think about measles.”

    Ironically, viruses’ potential to serve as “possible agents of tumor destruction” attracted interest as long as a century ago, when clinical experiences showed that, “given the right set of conditions, cancers would sometimes regress during naturally acquired virus infections.” In the current era, the use of viruses as an anti-cancer treatment has morphed into the “respectable field” of oncolytic virotherapy, even leading to clinical trials—and “measles virus still represents a highly interesting candidate for such an approach.”
    https://childrenshealthdefense.org/n...mmune-systems/

    Having measles may be beneficial. As radical as it sounds to some, there is a school of thought that having a natural measles infection is beneficial. Natural measles may protect against some forms of cancer later in life, as well as the tendency to have future allergic, immunological, and degenerative conditions. Unfortunately the “opportunity” to have the natural infection has been taken away from our children. Vaccinated people are not having natural measles, and neither are most unvaccinated people, as the disease has been largely suppressed. When it does occur, it is often at a non-physiological age (under 5 years old, or in adulthood), when it is more likely to be accompanied by complications. Ideally, children should be having measles during the normal time frame, which creates long-lasting, true herd immunity rather than vaccine-induced, false “herd immunity,” which is destined to wane within 5-10 years in the majority of vaccinated people. When mothers were having natural measles during their own childhood years, they were passing much stronger and more protective antibodies to their infants during pregnancy and with breastfeeding. By the time maternally-conferred immunity waned, the cycle repeated itself with natural childhood infections in their offspring. When widespread use of the vaccine became customary, we lost these protective biological dynamics.
    http://tenpennyimc.com/2015/02/17/me...t-in-a-teapot/


    Scientific evidence demonstrates that individuals vaccinated with live virus vaccines such as MMR (measles, mumps and rubella), rotavirus, chicken pox, shingles and influenza can shed the virus for many weeks or months afterwards and infect the vaccinated and unvaccinated alike.1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10

    Furthermore, vaccine recipients can carry diseases in the back of their throat and infect others while displaying no symptoms of a disease.11,12,13
    https://www.westonaprice.org/studies...pread-disease/


    This right here is pretty alarming:

    ...an alarming new study describes the case of an anonymous male patient in the UK who has carried the virus in his body for almost 30 years. Researchers from the National Institute for Biological Standards and Control analysed more than 100 stool samples from the man collected over a period of 20 years and found each contained high levels of the polio virus (strain 2).

    How could this be? After all, the man in question had received his full course of childhood immunisations, with an oral polio vaccine administered at five, seven, and 12 months of age, plus a booster when he was about seven years old.

    According to the study, which is published in PLOS Pathogens, he was later diagnosed with common variable immunodeficiency, which means his immune system couldn’t adequately kill off the small amount of the virus delivered to his digestive tract by the vaccinations.

    But when doctors analysed his stool samples, they found that the strains of vaccine-derived polio virus within were different from the weakened vaccine strain with which he was immunised as a child. What this means is that the virus in his system had mutated in his body over the course of 28 years, developing into a potentially more dangerous form.
    https://www.sciencealert.com/a-man-i...early-30-years
    My website: https://www.theherbsofthefield.com/

    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.” ~ Charles Dickens

  10. #68
    Yep- not a single documented case of shedding from a vaccinated patient. But a wall of unrelated text to hide that.

    Acute childhood infections
    Acute infections can also kill children.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 01-07-2019 at 07:38 PM.


    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    "Yeah, I have to say these guys(trolls) are pretty sharp. Sort of good to get a challenge and sharpen your thoughts." NorthCarolinaLiberty

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Yep- not a single documented case of shedding from a vaccinated patient. But a wall of unrelated text to hide that.



    Acute infections can also kill children.
    Well if you read it, you would realize that most of those vaccines are compulsatory vaccine for school children. When outbreaks happen, it's clear and evident that shedding of diseases may very well be the culprit.
    Last edited by donnay; 01-07-2019 at 07:48 PM.
    My website: https://www.theherbsofthefield.com/

    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.” ~ Charles Dickens

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    You are just flat out wrong. About everything.
    Good then bugger off. You offer nothing to the discussion anyway but bull$#@! propaganda.
    My website: https://www.theherbsofthefield.com/

    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.” ~ Charles Dickens

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Yep- not a single documented case of shedding from a vaccinated patient. But a wall of unrelated text to hide that.


    .
    Every. Single. Time. It's almost like she doesn't understand even basic science.
    Last edited by angelatc; 01-07-2019 at 08:00 PM.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Well if you read it, you would realize that most of those vaccines are compulsatory vaccine for school children. When outbreaks happen, it's clear and evident that shedding of diseases may very well be the culprit.

    If vaccine shedding caused outbreaks, then there would be MORE, not less, outbreaks in vaccinated populations. And the transmission rates here in the US have dropped so low credentialed researchers can literally track back to patient zero to determine where the outbreak originated. It does not track back to shedding because there is literally no proof that it happens. Ever.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Cleaner44 View Post
    You have failed to persuade me. Your argument that we should simply believe people with fancy hats and fine degrees from elite schools just doesn't fly with me.

    Enjoy blindly accepting whatever government workers and socialist schools feed you. Not for me.
    You misstate my position, which is that people with advanced degrees and decades of specialized research have a much higher chance of being able to provide documented data and experiments to support their theories.

    DonnaY never, ever does that. I posted a direct link to the actual testimony that started this off, and she gish-galloped away as fast as she possibly can.

    There is literally no debate about the safety and effectiveness of vaccines. None, nada, zip. As usual, the source for the piece she posted actually debunks the piece she posted.
    Last edited by angelatc; 01-07-2019 at 08:08 PM.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Well if you read it, you would realize that most of those vaccines are compulsatory vaccine for school children. When outbreaks happen, it's clear and evident that shedding of diseases may very well be the culprit.
    I noted earlier that there are only three vaccines for kids which use a live virus and are theoretically possible to experience shedding. Those are chickenpox, smallpox, and rotavirus. Some versions of the flu vaccine (the nasal spray one) also uses a live virus. Other vaccines (like measles) cannot be shed. No cases of shedding following a live virus vaccine have been documented. Measles outbreaks cannot be caused by shedding from somebody who was vaccinated.


    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

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  18. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    You misstate my position, which is that people with advanced degrees and decades of specialized research have a much higher chance of being able to provide documented data and experiments to support their theories.

    DonnaY never, ever does that. I posted a direct link to the actual testimony that started this off, and she gish-galloped away as fast as she possibly can.

    There is literally no debate about the safety and effectiveness of vaccines. None, nada, zip. As usual, the source for the piece she posted actually debunks the piece she posted.
    I wouldn't disagree that educated and experienced people have much to offer and that we should listen. I am only saying that there are many so-called experts that are in fact compromised and we should be prepared to refute them (I'm looking at you Krugman).

    I do believe that most vaccines are safe for most people. I also know that there are serious risks with most pharmaceuticals and even the vaccine makes publish their very real risks.

    I don't know, but I suspect that the vaccine court exist to protect the pharmaceutical companies, not the public. I don't believe in the idea of shielding businesses from lawsuits. That is the kind of crap that allows BP to pollute the gulf and not really be held accountable.
    Citizen of Arizona
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  19. #76


    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...cs-kaci-hickox

    “I did not say vaccines caused disorders, just that they were temporally related – I did not allege causation,” Paul said in a statement. “I support vaccines, I receive them myself and I had all of my children vaccinated. In fact today, I received the booster shot for the vaccines I got when I went to Guatemala last year.”


    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    "Yeah, I have to say these guys(trolls) are pretty sharp. Sort of good to get a challenge and sharpen your thoughts." NorthCarolinaLiberty

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  20. #77
    Send people into a population of people with polio. All people outside the population have not had the vaccine. Most all people in the population have polio. Before entering the population you are offered an opportunity to get the vaccine. Do you take the vaccine or refuse it?
    I would take it.

  21. #78
    I know that that outdated food pyramid has nothing to do with vaccines. But here - I have a pyramid too!!!

    "Anti-vax mom who ignores the entire medical community and instead gets her health info from random websites"
    Whee!

    It has everything to do with What I am Saying. As you jolly well know. Now perhaps you do not care what I am saying. I don't think that's true, I think you respect my opinion. But perhaps you have no idea what I'm saying. That is actually very likely, because I am a poor communicator.

    My point is: There are entire communities, and scientific communities especially, which have transparently shown themselves to be provably committed to LYING. To LIES. To FALSIFYING DATA, RESULTS, CONCLUSIONS, PEER REVIEW, EVERYTHING, the whole kit and kaboodle.

    No one ever believed in the Food Pyramid, as I explained in the previous thread. No one ever could. Not one single professional mainstream nutritionist ever believed in that joke. And not one single professional mainstream nutritionist ever disavowed it, ever published an article letting the public know it was total, laughable, transparent garbage. NOT ONE, Angela. Answer me that, Angela.

    Now you had an answer: "Oh isn't it wonderful how the peer review system really super works and it corrected that error, moving on to higher and loftier truths, as it always inevitably does?" Baloney. The only reason the dogma was ever overturned instead of being permanent like Global Warming was due to the Fad Diet system that America runs on. This is a highly dysfunctional system, but in this case it had the good side-effect of providing an unstoppable and uncensorable commercial conduit through which heterodox nutritional viewpoints could reach the public, via their insatiable hunger for an endless stream of new diets, totally bypassing the establishment. That's how it happened and that's a fact.

    I could give more examples of scientific communities engaging in and committed to long-term fraud and deception if you're being obtuse and refuse to see facts. Psychology. Whatcha think of Freudian psychology, Angela? Just a bunch of noble Truth-Seekers, called to disseminate Truth, following the Scientific Method? Yeah, me neither. Hmm. And yet these perverted wackos were presented for a hundred years as a scientific field, a source of authoritative truth.... and still are!

    You see how utterly unconvincing it is to argue purely from authority ("Respeck Muh Medical Communitay!") in a society built entirely upon an edifice of Lies featuring many-to-all scientific communities also complicit in lies (naturally. Just as much as the next guy)? And to people, RPFers, who know they live in an Empire of Lies? It's not convincing. So ditch that junk.

    Now the actual scientific method (in contrast to its modern replacement: peer review) is very convincing to rational people like myself. But you've also gotta back up and be willing to be a little bit creative in the questions you're willing to ask and to answer to get anywhere or understand anything. That's science, actually. By the way. One interesting question might be:

    1. Might there be any poisonous substances which could be injected by needle which could cause deleterious effects to the human body?

    If your answer to that question is "yes" -- and you are not being honest if it is not -- then next try this one on for size:

    2. Do you, in fact, sitting there in the examination room, have any way whatsoever of knowing what it is that's in that doctor's syringe?

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by H_H View Post
    Whee!

    It has everything to do with What I am Saying. As you jolly well know. Now perhaps you do not care what I am saying. I don't think that's true, I think you respect my opinion. But perhaps you have no idea what I'm saying. That is actually very likely, because I am a poor communicator.

    My point is: There are entire communities, and scientific communities especially, which have transparently shown themselves to be provably committed to LYING. To LIES. To FALSIFYING DATA, RESULTS, CONCLUSIONS, PEER REVIEW, EVERYTHING, the whole kit and kaboodle.

    No one ever believed in the Food Pyramid, as I explained in the previous thread. No one ever could. Not one single professional mainstream nutritionist ever believed in that joke. And not one single professional mainstream nutritionist ever disavowed it, ever published an article letting the public know it was total, laughable, transparent garbage. NOT ONE, Angela. Answer me that, Angela.

    Now you had an answer: "Oh isn't it wonderful how the peer review system really super works and it corrected that error, moving on to higher and loftier truths, as it always inevitably does?" Baloney. The only reason the dogma was ever overturned instead of being permanent like Global Warming was due to the Fad Diet system that America runs on. This is a highly dysfunctional system, but in this case it had the good side-effect of providing an unstoppable and uncensorable commercial conduit through which heterodox nutritional viewpoints could reach the public, via their insatiable hunger for an endless stream of new diets, totally bypassing the establishment. That's how it happened and that's a fact.

    I could give more examples of scientific communities engaging in and committed to long-term fraud and deception if you're being obtuse and refuse to see facts. Psychology. Whatcha think of Freudian psychology, Angela? Just a bunch of noble Truth-Seekers, called to disseminate Truth, following the Scientific Method? Yeah, me neither. Hmm. And yet these perverted wackos were presented for a hundred years as a scientific field, a source of authoritative truth.... and still are!

    You see how utterly unconvincing it is to argue purely from authority ("Respeck Muh Medical Communitay!") in a society built entirely upon an edifice of Lies featuring many-to-all scientific communities also complicit in lies (naturally. Just as much as the next guy)? And to people, RPFers, who know they live in an Empire of Lies? It's not convincing. So ditch that junk.

    Now the actual scientific method (in contrast to its modern replacement: peer review) is very convincing to rational people like myself. But you've also gotta back up and be willing to be a little bit creative in the questions you're willing to ask and to answer to get anywhere or understand anything. That's science, actually. By the way. One interesting question might be:

    1. Might there be any poisonous substances which could be injected by needle which could cause deleterious effects to the human body?

    If your answer to that question is "yes" -- and you are not being honest if it is not -- then next try this one on for size:

    2. Do you, in fact, sitting there in the examination room, have any way whatsoever of knowing what it is that's in that doctor's syringe?
    3. Does the doctor?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    You are here advocating on behalf of letting people die from easily preventable diseases, because 10,000 years from now something something something something.
    I'm just advocating thinking unemotionally about biological issues.

    These are biological issues.

    Now you can make them moral issues, and almost everyone does, and so probably you do, but if you do then you are completely clouded and can probably never come to any rational thinking. Because then you're not willing to confront any models which ignore your morality altogether. It's too emotionally distressing and disorienting.

    I'm just saying we should be able to think about it. Just to think. Rationally. Unemotionally. That's all.

    It's non-obvious that insulating a species from all attacks, threats, and struggles will cause a permanent improvement to that species' well-being. I think that can be disputed.



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Because angelatc is a fake and phony. She doesn't love Liberty and Freedom and this discussion proves it rather well. She'll back pedal and say she is not for mandatory vaccines but believes in Herd Immunity.
    I get that people are afraid of transmissible diseases. But if the vaccine does what its supposed to do, why worry so much about other people so much? Vaccines do not stop the spread of many viruses, but may lessen the severity of the effects, but, at a cost, which is why it has to be a personal choice. I think what the Talking Heads are actually worried about is their Stock Prices going down because people dont buy either the vaccines, or the continuous lies, such as "the water in Flint Michigan is perfectly safe".

    Of course, I might be fake myself. More self deception, thinking that Govt should be charged with safeguarding our nation against Illegal Immigration too, and NOT forcing vaccines on people. But, at the same time, I might not be fake... Same pattern applies, deceive the public into making the wrong choice. I dont think going after one person here helps that much. Talking Heads on TV just parrot what they are told to say. Real solutions on the debate come from going after the Source of the lies, the Money Manipulators.

    I will always choose Dangerous Freedom over Tyranny.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  26. #82
    How old are your children, angela?
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    I get that people are afraid of transmissible diseases. But if the vaccine does what its supposed to do, why worry so much about other people so much? .
    This has been answered about 100 times. It's like talking to goddamn walls. It's a valid question, but at this point asking it means you actually haven't done any homework.

    1. Vaccines are not 100% effective. Stopping outbreaks depends on having a certain percentage of the population immunized.
    2. Infants and immuno-compromised individuals are especially prone to depending on the immunity of the surrounding herd.
    3. We'll never be allowed to have freedom when we have people dumb enough to believe the $#@! the anti-vaxxers shovel. The world should condemn them loudly and harshly at every given opportunity. They are death peddlers.
    Last edited by angelatc; 01-08-2019 at 08:36 AM.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Good then bugger off. You offer nothing to the discussion anyway but bull$#@! propaganda.
    I offered you the proof that the article you posted was bull$#@! by linking directly to the paper your original article cherry picked. By all definitions, that makes your post the propaganda.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    You are the one constantly calling for government bans and controls. And the reason I believe in herd immunity is because it's a scientific theory that has been proved repeatedly. (That means over and over.)

    Look - here is Zimmerman's testimony: https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/u...Deposition.pdf

    I know you're not going to comprehend read it, but here's the Cliff Notes version:

    Dr Zimmerman is pro vaccine and even vaccinates his patients. Dr Zimmerman does not conclude that vaccines cause autism. Dr Zimmerman believes that autism is primarily a genetic disorder. Zimmerman explains how he continues to vaccinate, even in children with mitochondrial disorders (see: Hanna Poling), as he understands the benefits outweigh the risks. He explains that in his opinion the Yates Hazelhurst medical records show no signs of regression. He asserts that encephalopathy is a separate condition from autism. He states that “mitochondrial autism” is not a valid medical term.

    As usual, he didn't reach the conclusions your article attributes to him.
    I tip my hat to you! I appreciate your unwavering dedication to this topic. It would be easier for you to just ignore this issue rather than present the facts as they are at this point in time. If you stayed silent real data would be misinterpreted/mis-presented.

    People should read that document before spewing opinions.

    Thank you!

  30. #86
    If the herd has been vaccinated there is less disease in the population so the people that are not vaccinated have less exposure to the disease and are less likely to acquire it.

  31. #87
    I was asking sincerely, Angela. We vaccinated our daughter to the schedule, but that schedule was not so rigorous as it is today. I think children’s immune systems develop as they grow. Especially breastfed babies have some natural immunity. I don’t think it needs to be artificially forced to the degree the medical industrial complex thinks it should be.

    I think there is an agenda that has nothing to do with health. I think the earlier children are vaccinated, the earlier the system will start to drive them into early education programs. Such programs are touted to be the solution to literacy and social maladjustment. If that were the case, you would have seen those results in a generation. We have not seen that. We are see worse results. Early education may have some short-term benefit, but it has been proven that the benefit levels out by about grade 4 or 5. But you do have another year or two or indoctrination, and I know you don’t agree with that.

    My daughter has chosen not to follow the standard schedule. She is asking her pediatrician to space out the vaccines so they aren’t giving so many different shots at once. Parents always need to make informed decisions and decide what their children should take. Smart parenting does not put all its eggs in the vaccination basket. Keep kids away from sick people. Keep kids home when they are sick. Feed them good food, give them plenty of clean water, and make sure they get outside to get plenty of fresh air. Keep the home environment clean. Deal with infestations of vermin. It’s a lifestyle, not a for-profit industry decision.
    "There are two freedoms - the false, where a man is free to do what he likes; the true, where he is free to do what he ought."~~Charles Kingsley

  32. #88
    Sane, rational and reasonable.

    +rep

    Quote Originally Posted by euphemia View Post
    I was asking sincerely, Angela. We vaccinated our daughter to the schedule, but that schedule was not so rigorous as it is today. I think children’s immune systems develop as they grow. Especially breastfed babies have some natural immunity. I don’t think it needs to be artificially forced to the degree the medical industrial complex thinks it should be.

    I think there is an agenda that has nothing to do with health. I think the earlier children are vaccinated, the earlier the system will start to drive them into early education programs. Such programs are touted to be the solution to literacy and social maladjustment. If that were the case, you would have seen those results in a generation. We have not seen that. We are see worse results. Early education may have some short-term benefit, but it has been proven that the benefit levels out by about grade 4 or 5. But you do have another year or two or indoctrination, and I know you don’t agree with that.

    My daughter has chosen not to follow the standard schedule. She is asking her pediatrician to space out the vaccines so they aren’t giving so many different shots at once. Parents always need to make informed decisions and decide what their children should take. Smart parenting does not put all its eggs in the vaccination basket. Keep kids away from sick people. Keep kids home when they are sick. Feed them good food, give them plenty of clean water, and make sure they get outside to get plenty of fresh air. Keep the home environment clean. Deal with infestations of vermin. It’s a lifestyle, not a for-profit industry decision.



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  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Yep, there we are. Everybody who works in science, academia and government is on on some secret plot plot. But by golly, you're able to see right through them all.
    The only problem with your statement here is that the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program isn't a secret.
    https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html
    https://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/f...ember-2018.pdf
    It is a fact that this program has paid out over 4 billion dollars in compensation since its inception.
    It is a fact that vaccines are conceded, without argument, by this court to be the root cause of 17 per cent of the injuries that are compensated.
    It is a fact that vaccines are found by the court, after hearing arguments, to be the root cause of a further 9 per cent of the injuries that are compensated.
    It is a fact that in 74 per cent of the compensated injuries, the VICP holds the vaccine blameless.
    It is a fact that if there was no correlation between the vaccine and the other 74 per cent of the injuries, then they would not have paid compensation.
    It is therefore a reasonable assumption that in 74 per cent of the injuries, the VICP is paying hush money.

    This is after the moral hazard has been implemented of allowing pharmaceutical companies not to stand responsible for their vaccines. This is the government you place absolute faith in on this point, openly admitting that vaccines cause injuries, and covering up injuries almost three quarters of the time.

    I can find no information as to whether the VICP is forwarding injury data or case studies to anyone who follows up on these injuries. In other words, there is no evidence of any follow-up with the pharmaceutical companies.

    It is a further fact that a proper double-blind study on vaccine efficacy and injury is ethically and legally impossible, and therefore, actual science really doesn't have much of a leg to stand on here.

    It's not a secret. It's another one of those things that is easily verifiable and in plain sight. If you want to say "science, academia and government is on on some secret plot plot" that's fine, but you can't refute any of these facts on the ground... not without undermining your faith in the state, which, as already pointed out by @Cleaner44 (despite your inability to see it), destroys your argument.
    Last edited by fisharmor; 01-08-2019 at 10:14 AM.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Vaccines don't suffer that phenomenon. We can watch the disease rates fall exactly as predicted when the vaccine rates hit a certain level in the population. There is no debate about that.
    If there is "no debate" than why are there so many posts in this thread?!?

    One of the great tricks big pharma uses is to quickly administer vaccines after the “epidemic” is already over. And then when the disease becomes less this is subsequently reported as hard evidence that the vaccines prevent diseases!
    The following picture shows that the decline in death rate had nothing to do with vaccines, including: Measles for which a vaccine was introduced in 1963, Whooping cough (Pertussis) - vaccine 1949, and Diphtheria - vaccine 1920.
    Do NOT ever read my posts.
    Google and Yahoo wouldn’t block them without a very good reason: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...he-world/page2

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