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Thread: "Bake the Cake" issue reversed

  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That is the important question, what was the actual law in her case? If she believed the law to be that she must not do it then she was justified but if she believed that she had a personal right to not follow the law then she was wrong, she only had that right if she resigned.
    Yeah. That was hashed out here plenty back in the day. It was a way different situation than this.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe






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  3. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    All of that is true. None of it changes the fact that there are people in this thread arguing that Team Red should have rights that Team Blue doesn't have.
    Actually (and without reading the whole thread), I am pretty sure no one has argued that in this thread yet, which would make your statement not true and not a fact. However, I like you and your writing, Tulsa, and so I am going to go ahead and make your statement true by making an argument for why Team Red should have rights that Team Blue doesn't have. Isn't that awesome of me? (it is).

    Assertion #1: Libertarianism is a right-wing ideology. Clearly it is. It's the only categorization that makes sense of reality. Libertarianism seeks to restore such things as the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Essentially everything it pushes for is all about harking back to and re-enshrining the traditional Rights of Englishmen which we traditionally enjoyed. Essentially everything that has been done for the past one hundred to four hundred years by the nation-state, every trend and policy direction, every piece of legislation, every item on the budget, is something that libertarians oppose. They oppose the items with various degrees of vociferousness, depending on how radical their libertarianism is, but overall 90+% of the time a libertarian, even a milquetoast one, will be far more opposed to a far greater quantity of government programs than a run-of-the-mill conservative, even an enthusiastic and partisan ("extreme") one. So how is that not right-wing? Talk about standing athwart the government tank convoy, yelling "Stop"! That's us. Now we're not run of the mill, it's true. We're an odd sort of duck. A platypus is an odd sort of mammal. But it's a mammal. Even when libertarians temporarily share issue stands with the left (and only temporarily, it is now all-too-clear, as "liberals" this coming year will abandon en masse all pretense of support for free speech or opposition to war, and already have flipped on a host of other freedom issues), we have the stands for entirely different reasons -- right-wing reasons. For example, you and I want to legalize drugs because "life, liberty, property; absolute right of unrestrained commerce; self-ownership; individual sovereignty; etc." None of those arguments are even remotely similar to any argument leftists use or even can understand, in support of the very same issue!

    Assertion #2: Assertion #1 matters. Taxonomy and classification are two of the finest achievements of the human mind (big shout out to Aristotle!) and are fundamental to everything, making thought itself possible. Ya can't find your pencil on a clutter-piled desk. Robert Heinlein wrote "Dad claims that library science is the foundation of all sciences just as math is the key--and that we will survive or founder depending on how well the librarians do their jobs." (HSSWT, p. 186) This stuff matters. If words are a confusion, thought will be a confusion. Knowing what libertarianism is and what it's aiming at and how it fits into the larger political universe -- this is all foundational. You can't get where you're going if you don't know where you're going, Alice (Carrol). Become who you are by learning who you are (Pindar).

    Assertion #3: If we are fundamentally in the right-wing galaxy -- and we are -- then the entire right wing is, broadly-speaking, our allies. Our brothers. Doesn't mean we gotta love everyone from Paul Ryan to George Bush, or indeed anyone. I hate them all. A lot. But I hate them for fundamentally right-wing reasons. We hate them because they're not really right-wing, or at least not enough so for us. They aren't actually helping in the right-wing project which is to roll back government. Instead they serve as fake, pathetic "opposition."

    Assertion #4: Their fakeness and patheticness and loserness is the most reprehensible quality of right wing politicians from a libertarian perspective. We'd be more or less OK with them -- nay, downright giddy -- if they actually shrunk the government in any way. Like, say, Calvin Coolidge and Warren Harding. We're very forgiving of faults. Just try to win! Instead they lose, lose, lose, lose, lose.

    Assertion #5: In war, you do whatever you need to to win. Winning means destroying the enemy. It means annihilating them. War is not about principles. It is about body counts. I would like the right wing to win. I would like my country back. I would like some hope for some marginally decent place to live for my great-grandchildren. That's a hope I do not now enjoy, and which no rational person enjoys, nor will ever enjoy, unless something radically and severely changes. If achieving victory meant, say, taxing all leftists at 75% and taxing all conservatives at 0%: Do it. I'd push the button. I don't care. Equality is for microbes. If it's between "but, but: Hypocrisy! Unequal treatment," and the death and destruction of America? I'll choose life.
    Last edited by H_H; 12-31-2018 at 09:09 AM.

  4. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    If that's your wish, you should be able to under real freedom- but I wouldn't advise it.
    What a cowardly way of avoiding answering the question. You couldn't answer truthfully that, "No you can't do that legally in America"; because admitting this fact blows away the position of those trying to defend the dumbass clerk.

  5. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    What a cowardly way of avoiding answering the question. You couldn't answer truthfully that, "No you can't do that legally in America"; because admitting this fact blows away the position of those trying to defend the dumbass clerk.
    WTF? Any idiot already knows that you can't do that legally in America. I said under REAL freedom.

    And I'm not defending the dumbass clerk.
    There is no spoon.

  6. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    Why would you not advise it?
    Well, a) it's illegal, and b) you'd end up in the can.
    There is no spoon.

  7. #246
    Anyone else surprised how this child did not sway the opinion of the maga-man? His political arguments were so very persuasive too. I mean, racism..?

    Maga should have grabbed him by the pu$$y, then took his vape fluid.

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"



  8. #247
    This is exceedingly simple:

    -The property owner has (or should have) the ability to throw anyone off of his property.
    -An employee does not have this ability unless he is specifically told by the property owner that he can exercise that kind of discretion. Considering his firing, it's pretty clear he doesn't.

    The idea that the employee has every ability the property owner does at their discretion if the owner isn't there is ridiculous. It takes about one second of brain power to think up plenty of things that an employee has no right to do, that an owner does.
    NeoReactionary. American High Tory.

    The counter-revolution will not be televised.

  9. #248
    From my understanding only the actual owner should have the property rights to refuse service as it effects his personal business and happiness.
    For example, if you have a new customer at a restaurant that is making all his other regular customers very uncomfortable, they all complain and threaten to leave directly to the owner, then to protect his business he is within his rights to ask that person to leave.

    That is very different from a front line employee that refuses to serve a customer because of a piece of clothing that represents something he despises, he can't make that call, if he thinks he can, he shouldn't be serving the general public. I have worked retail for many years at many different companies, this guy would be instantly fired at every one of them.

    But when the guy says "do my bidding" that is pushing it, if a customer said that to me, I would push back with something calm and verbal to let them know that isn't cool to say to retail people, not just take it, it's very rude and everyone of my bosses I have every had would have backed me.

    The clerk should of sold it to him without resorting to an epic meltdown, I felt sorry for the other customer that witnessed this.



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  11. #249
    Its sad this type of behavior is normalized. "Youre wearing a Trump shirt so Im gonna have you thrown out of my store and arrested for being a racist!" That is NOT how NORMAL people behave.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  12. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    WTF? Any idiot already knows that you can't do that legally in America. I said under REAL freedom.

    And I'm not defending the dumbass clerk.
    So what we are discussing is an illusion of freedom.

  13. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    They sure as hell ain't calling the guy a trespasser! They aren't defending the store's right to sell to whomever they wish!

    And yes, many of them are specifically asking for government intervention to shut the store down for discrimination.
    Generally speaking the so-called "right" never said those things about the baker either. It seemed to me that most of them very deliberately labored to frame their position around religious freedom, so as to avoid implying that they would support the right of people to discriminate on the basis of just anything.

  14. #252
    A liberal clerk at a gas station 100 miles from nowhere should be able to refuse to sell gas to a passing motorist in need of gas because they have a MAGA bumper sticker on the used car they just purchased.

  15. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    A liberal clerk at a gas station 100 miles from nowhere should be able to refuse to sell gas to a passing motorist in need of gas because they have a MAGA bumper sticker on the used car they just purchased.
    Of course.

    But most of the people who defended the baker weren't saying that.

  16. #254
    Should is an illusion. Can or cannot is law. Laws cause people to lose everything trying to invoke what they should be able to do.

  17. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Generally speaking the so-called "right" never said those things about the baker either. It seemed to me that most of them very deliberately labored to frame their position around religious freedom, so as to avoid implying that they would support the right of people to discriminate on the basis of just anything.
    Obviously they did, because like you, they are Socially Acceptable Characters, and that means (in Current Year) being Anti-Racist. The whole right is Oh, so very, very Anti-Racist. They would never think any Racist thought not ever (The Democrats are the real racists! AmIRite!). And it is very important to them to prove that to everyone at every moment and at every opportunity and this was just such an opportunity.

    That reminds me, I need to do my daily Virtue Signaling about how righteously Anti-Racist I am. Punching a racist is OK, erowe. Didn't you know that? It's positively virtuous. Have you punched a racist today? Not yet? Get on it. This is your last chance in Current Year. Next Year may be different. The NPC programming may change, may be updated. I hear Qanon says that there's a patch in the works. So some future Thursday you're going to have to download and reboot and then after that you may not even be able to punch Racists anymore, and then where will we be? Better live it up and suck the marrow whilst thou canst, E. That's in the Bible, right? Old Testament... somewhere.

    So Let's All Go Punch Some Racists YEAH!

    AMIRITE?
    Last edited by H_H; 12-31-2018 at 08:44 AM.

  18. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by H_H View Post
    Obviously they did, because like you, they are Socially Acceptable Characters, and that means (in Current Year) being Anti-Racist.
    If you are implying that I do support any anti-discrimination laws, you are incorrect. I do not.

    I don't think the same is true of most of the Republican baker defenders. Most of them that I heard scrupulously avoided voicing support for any free market principles in that debate. To me, however, the free market principles were all that mattered. The whole concept of "religious liberty" ought never to have been brought up.

    But you're right that I'm anti-racist. And I find it strange that that label would be thought an opprobrium.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 12-31-2018 at 08:49 AM.



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  20. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    A liberal clerk at a gas station 100 miles from nowhere should be able to refuse to sell gas to a passing motorist in need of gas because they have a MAGA bumper sticker on the used car they just purchased.
    Well, monopolies selling things necessary to survival (like utilities) tend to get treated a mite differently under the law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  21. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    If you are implying that I do support any anti-discrimination laws, you are incorrect. I do not.
    Dude, e., why would I imply that? I have been here for 11 years and I know you and I am not braindead (...yet). Also, I am extremely simpleminded and easy to figure out. If I am going to imply something, I will just imply it, transparent as the sky, not invisibly on some other dimension. In fact, 90% of the time I probably will not bother with implying at all and will simply say my thing, straight-out. The main exceptions are thoughty thinkings which are Prohibited and Very Bad and so which nobody can say. Which, as Current Year progresses to full Consummation, have become more and more numerous and eventually will probably consist of all rational thought whatsoever as free speech is completely Shut-The-$$$*-Down.


    I don't think the same is true of most of the Republican baker defenders.
    Duuuhhhhhh.... ya don't!?

    Ya don't say.

    But you're right that I'm anti-racist.
    Of course I am. See, here's a plain example of what I'm all about:

    I think a thing
    I write the thing
    The thing is obviously and undeniably true

    It's so simple.

    So let's go punch those bad, evil racists, e. Are you down? I mean: Art thou down? (See I can even "Tailor My Message" and "Speak Your Language")

  22. #259
    PM:
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man
    Please do not make posts that imply anything about what you think my actual name is, whether right or wrong. That violates forum policy.
    Seriously, man? Like, it was your forum handle. The forum handle which you would still be using to this day, except that it GOT STINKIN' BANNED! And, like, I didn't ban you; I'm the Last of the Die-Hards FOR Free Speech. So don't blame me. And I have no insight as to whether it was your real name or not. I was just calling you by the name you chose and called yourself for 8 years or whatever until the Speech Police shut you down and forced you to choose a new one. Like, feel free to call me Helmuth. I actually tried to come back simply as helmuth_hubener2, helmuth_hubener3, helmuth_hubener4, etc. (simplicity really is my wont), but these were all either banned or refused approval as new users. Strangled at birth. So sad. ;^(

    But anyway, OK fine, I can call you SuperMan if you insist. That's probably better for you from a neuro-linguistic-programming perspective, which maybe is your point. You're so high above us, Mr. Spock!
    Last edited by H_H; 12-31-2018 at 09:53 AM.

  23. #260
    Originally Posted by Superfluous Man
    Please do not make posts that imply anything about what you think my actual name is, whether right or wrong. That violates forum policy.
    That's weird.

    I thought the "e" stood for excellent. Does the "e" have a special meaning for you? Do you have a guilty conscience?
    ...

  24. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by H_H View Post
    P
    But anyway, OK fine, I can call you SuperMan if you insist. That's probably better for you from a neuro-linguistic-programming perspective, which maybe is your point. You're so high above us, Mr. Spock!
    I would like to address him as Super E because I think he is a Super Excellent poster on a forum with many excellent posters!
    ...

  25. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Generally speaking the so-called "right" never said those things about the baker either. It seemed to me that most of them very deliberately labored to frame their position around religious freedom, so as to avoid implying that they would support the right of people to discriminate on the basis of just anything.
    That's because we are on our own 10 yard line.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  26. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    That's because we are on our own 10 yard line.
    Maybe for you. But for most so-called conservatives that's not the reason. The reason is because their basis for supporting the baker truly never had anything to do with freedom in general. They really do support government regulating who people may or must associate with. And they really do see "religious liberty" as some kind of special exception to the general rule.

    I have come to realize that the label "conservative," at least as it applies in modern American politics, really is quite apt. Conserving the status quo really is exactly what they're about. And any time the status quo changes, it may take them a few years to adjust to it, but that's about all. And then they will no longer stand for the principles of yesteryear's conservatives but will only want to keep the new status quo from changing any more in either direction. But "small government" has pretty much nothing to do with anything they're for except when it's a useful slogan for propaganda purposes.

  27. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    So what we are discussing is an illusion of freedom.
    Exactly.

    We are living in The Matrix, which is THE prison for the mind. This prison is ultimately supported by both the NeoCons & NeoDems & is the complete illusion of freedom while keeping people locked in cradles, sucking their thumbs.
    There is no spoon.



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  29. #265
    Come on! Are you gonna punch racists or not, man?

    Deep down you actually are a racist, aren't you? "SuperMan" -- sounds an awful lot like Ubermenchen and Nietzsche stuff, don't it. Admit it.


    Admit it, admititadmititadmititadmitit.

    If you were such an anti-racist, you would be down for punching racists. Fact. So explain that, white boy.

  30. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    I think its worth posting the owners/company statement again.
    And I think it's worth noting that the "tweet" has been deleted by "Twitter" (what a ridiculous sentence to have to type), the entire XHale tweeting account has been deleted and purged by Twitter, and even though Google lists the exact tweet on their search and links to the deleted page, the Google cache has been deleted as well.

    Hmm....


  31. #267
    It can be reasonably assumed any business not presenting a non-standard business practice would not be participating in that practice. As in, it is not standard for a business to exclude 50% of the country from shopping there because they supported Trump. So, it wasn't unreasonable for the customer to deduce that the employee was not following company policy, and not obey the directive to leave simply because he was wearing a MAGA hat indicating he supported Trump.

    In other words it was obvious the employee was not following corporate policy, which would be the owners policy and will, therefore the customer did not violate the rights of the business or owner.

  32. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by H_H View Post
    And I think it's worth noting that the "tweet" has been deleted by "Twitter" (what a ridiculous sentence to have to type), the entire XHale tweeting account has been deleted and purged by Twitter, and even though Google lists the exact tweet on their search and links to the deleted page, the Google cache has been deleted as well.

    Hmm....

    Actually, the account seems to be back up again now. Just a little oopsie from the Tweety birds?

    Here is an image of the tweetage for your convenience in case of any future censorship -- oops, I mean totally wonderful assertions of Ancap Private Property Rights Which We Should Totally Support and Applaud.


  33. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by H_H View Post
    Actually (and without reading the whole thread), I am pretty sure no one has argued that in this thread yet, which would make your statement not true and not a fact. However, I like you and your writing, Tulsa, and so I am going to go ahead and make your statement true by making an argument for why Team Red should have rights that Team Blue doesn't have. Isn't that awesome of me? (it is).

    Assertion #1: Libertarianism is a right-wing ideology. Clearly it is. It's the only categorization that makes sense of reality. Libertarianism seeks to restore such things as the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Essentially everything it pushes for is all about harking back to and re-enshrining the traditional Rights of Englishmen which we traditionally enjoyed. Essentially everything that has been done for the past one hundred to four hundred years by the nation-state, every trend and policy direction, every piece of legislation, every item on the budget, is something that libertarians oppose. They oppose the items with various degrees of vociferousness, depending on how radical their libertarianism is, but overall 90+% of the time a libertarian, even a milquetoast one, will be far more opposed to a far greater quantity of government programs than a run-of-the-mill conservative, even an enthusiastic and partisan ("extreme") one. So how is that not right-wing? Talk about standing athwart the government tank convoy, yelling "Stop"! That's us. Now we're not run of the mill, it's true. We're an odd sort of duck. A platypus is an odd sort of mammal. But it's a mammal. Even when libertarians temporarily share issue stands with the left (and only temporarily, it is now all-too-clear, as "liberals" this coming year will abandon en masse all pretense of support for free speech or opposition to war, and already have flipped on a host of other freedom issues), we have the stands for entirely different reasons -- right-wing reasons. For example, you and I want to legalize drugs because "life, liberty, property; absolute right of unrestrained commerce; self-ownership; individual sovereignty; etc." None of those arguments are even remotely similar to any argument leftists use or even can understand, in support of the very same issue!

    Assertion #2: Assertion #1 matters. Taxonomy and classification are two of the finest achievements of the human mind (big shout out to Aristotle!) and are fundamental to everything, making thought itself possible. Ya can't find your pencil on a clutter-piled desk. Robert Heinlein wrote "Dad claims that library science is the foundation of all sciences just as math is the key--and that we will survive or founder depending on how well the librarians do their jobs." (HSSWT, p. 186) This stuff matters. If words are a confusion, thought will be a confusion. Knowing what libertarianism is and what it's aiming at and how it fits into the larger political universe -- this is all foundational. You can't get where you're going if you don't know where you're going, Alice (Carrol). Become who you are by learning who you are (Pindar).

    Assertion #3: If we are fundamentally in the right-wing galaxy -- and we are -- then the entire right wing is, broadly-speaking, our allies. Our brothers. Doesn't mean we gotta love everyone from Paul Ryan to George Bush, or indeed anyone. I hate them all. A lot. But I hate them for fundamentally right-wing reasons. We hate them because they're not really right-wing, or at least not enough so for us. They aren't actually helping in the right-wing project which is to roll back government. Instead they serve as fake, pathetic "opposition."

    Assertion #4: Their fakeness and patheticness and loserness is the most reprehensible quality of right wing politicians from a libertarian perspective. We'd be more or less OK with them -- nay, downright giddy -- if they actually shrunk the government in any way. Like, say, Calvin Coolidge and Warren Harding. We're very forgiving of faults. Just try to win! Instead they lose, lose, lose, lose, lose.

    Assertion #5: In war, you do whatever you need to to win. Winning means destroying the enemy. It means annihilating them. War is not about principles. It is about body counts. I would like the right wing to win. I would like my country back. I would like some hope for some marginally decent place to live for my great-grandchildren. That's a hope I do not now enjoy, and which no rational person enjoys, nor will ever enjoy, unless something radically and severely changes. If achieving victory meant, say, taxing all leftists at 75% and taxing all conservatives at 0%: Do it. I'd push the button. I don't care. Equality is for microbes. If it's between "but, but: Hypocrisy! Unequal treatment," and the death and destruction of America? I'll choose life.
    Aristotle?

    The Meaning of Life

    http://web.archive.org/web/201105181...s/meaning1.htm
    FJB

  34. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    this video is a prime example. ...the left...the right...the same.
    What this video is a prime example of is this year wrapping up just about perfectly for my agenda. While you, Cap'n, are, I don't know, wringing your hands about some angsty ancap point and bragging about how absolutely no one on either side of any political spectrum agrees with you, I have a much simpler and more comprehensible agenda:

    Free Speech is Everything.

    Free Speech is The Only Issue.

    Free Speech is Life, Free Speech is Meat, Free Speech is Breath Itself.

    Without Free Speech there IS. NO. HOPE.

    And With Free Speech there is nothing But Hope.

    From now on every single viral video and controversy that blows up should be about free speech as an issue. As this one is. Because while no one may agree with the Captain (and good for you, man! Way to be. Keep it up.), a lot of people agree with the phrase "Free Speech." A lot of memic energy has been poured into that for about 300 years. And we are going to take that energy and redirect it right back at our ruling elite in a burning fireball of liquid fury -- intelligent fury, and a coolly calculating fireball -- that will crash Doomsday on all that the Cabal has built.

    Because it's time.

    And they have no arguments.

    And they have spent up all their goodwill and all their gravitas.

    Truth will prevail.

    God Speed the Right.

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