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Thread: Physical delivery bitcoin futures coming end of January from the NYSE

  1. #1

    Physical delivery bitcoin futures coming end of January from the NYSE

    This should hopefully counter the CME paper settled crap...

    This article is old. Launch date was postponed to Jan 24th and now Jan 30th 2019

    --------------------------

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-i...-idUSKBN1KO1QN

    NYSE-owner ICE to form new company for digital assets

    John McCrank, Anna Irrera
    3 Min Read







    (Reuters) - Intercontinental Exchange Inc (ICE.N), the owner of the New York Stock Exchange, said on Friday it plans to form a company and trading platform for digital assets, such as bitcoin, as well as a physically delivered bitcoin futures contract.




    A screen displays the ticker symbol and logo for Intercontinental Exchange Inc. (ICE) on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) March 1, 2016. REUTERS/Brendan McDermid





    The exchange and clearinghouse operator said the new platform would be built using Microsoft Corp’s (MSFT.O) cloud technology and work with companies including Starbucks Corp (SBUX.O) and Boston Consulting Group to enable consumers to trade, store and spend cryptocurrencies.
    ICE did not give a launch date for the new company, called Bakkt, and said further details would be announced in the coming weeks.
    However, it plans to launch a one-day physically delivered bitcoin futures contract and warehousing through its U.S.-based futures exchange and clearinghouse in November, subject to approval by the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission.


    ICE’s cryptocurrency plans could play a significant role in helping the marketplace for the nascent asset class mature, as it continues to draw more interest from traditional financial institutions.


    “In bringing regulated, connected infrastructure together with institutional and consumer applications for digital assets, we aim to build confidence in the asset class on a global scale,” ICE Chief Executive Jeffrey Sprecher said.
    Baakt will be led by Kelly Loeffler, a senior ICE executive and Sprecher’s wife.


    ICE’s plans follow the December launch by competing exchange groups Cboe Global Markets Inc CBOE.O and CME Group Inc CBOE.O of cash-settled bitcoin futures.


    ICE’s new cryptocurrency platform will initially be used for trading and conversion of bitcoin versus fiat currencies, Atlanta-based ICE said.
    This places it in direct competition with Coinbase, one of the largest cryptocurrency exchanges based in the United States, in which ICE is an investor. Coinbase did not immediately respond to a request for comment.


    While cryptocurrencies have gained traction with speculators, partly because of their volatility, they have struggled to make inroads as viable forms of payment.


    ICE hopes Bakkt can help change that by working with merchants to create consumer applications.


    “As the flagship retailer, Starbucks will play a pivotal role in developing practical, trusted and regulated applications for consumers to convert their digital assets into U.S. dollars for use at Starbucks,” Maria Smith, vice president, partnerships and payments for Starbucks, said in a statement.


    Investors in Bakkt are expected to include an affiliate of Fortress Investment Group, Eagle Seven, Galaxy Digital, Horizons Ventures, Alan Howard, Pantera Capital, Protocol Ventures, and Susquehanna International Group, LLP, ICE said.



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  3. #2
    I have heard that the purchases for this bakkt product are 25 BTC minimum trades.

  4. #3
    How do you take physical delivery of something which does not exist physically?

    Intercontinental Exchange Inc (ICE.N), the owner of the New York Stock Exchange, said on Friday it plans to form a company and trading platform for digital assets, such as bitcoin, as well as a physically delivered bitcoin futures contract.


    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    "Yeah, I have to say these guys(trolls) are pretty sharp. Sort of good to get a challenge and sharpen your thoughts." NorthCarolinaLiberty

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    How do you take physical delivery of something which does not exist physically?
    You can store BTC on one of these guys:

    https://www.ledger.com/products/ledg...SABEgLOvPD_BwE


    It is encrypted and secured, can't be stolen or lost (as long as you store your 24 word passphrase in a secure location as well).
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    You can store BTC on one of these guys:

    https://www.ledger.com/products/ledg...SABEgLOvPD_BwE


    It is encrypted and secured, can't be stolen or lost (as long as you store your 24 word passphrase in a secure location as well).
    You aren't taking physical delivery if it is being held by somebody else.


    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    "Yeah, I have to say these guys(trolls) are pretty sharp. Sort of good to get a challenge and sharpen your thoughts." NorthCarolinaLiberty

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    You aren't taking physical delivery if it is being held by somebody else.
    My point is you can take physical delivery of bitcoin.. you just need to tell them what your btc address is.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    How do you take physical delivery of something which does not exist physically?
    You transfer ownership from bakkt's private keys to your own private keys. AKA withdrawing to your own wallet.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    You aren't taking physical delivery if it is being held by somebody else.
    physically delivery in crypto land means taking total and COMPLETE ownership with cryptographic keys. Complete defeat of paper boys.

    the day Zippy starts buying Bitcoin.. is the day the bear market will be over!



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  11. #9
    It will be more interesting when there are stable bitcoin hedges available.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't even a thing nor are capital gains taxes
    Constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    My point is you can take physical delivery of bitcoin.. you just need to tell them what your btc address is.
    A Btc is not the real Physical world..

    How do you take something that exists only in the digital world and Make it Physically deliverable??

    YOU CAN'T.
    Power goes out and the web is down ,,, and bitcoin is nothing..

    It is as real as WOW Gold.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    A Btc is not the real Physical world..

    How do you take something that exists only in the digital world and Make it Physically deliverable??

    YOU CAN'T.
    Power goes out and the web is down ,,, and bitcoin is nothing..
    Btc is math and cryptography, it is on computers which are of the physical world.

    If we lost the internet, losing btc would be the least of our problems.. but I also recommend people have physical gold.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Btc is math and cryptography, .
    I'm mathematically dyslexic.

    But I don't know any stores or Gas stations that would take a bitcoin payment nor could I carry it in my pocket..

    Useless in the real world,,, useful only online at the few (pseudo-trendy) retailers accept them.

    none of which are any use to me for paying Rent, Insurance, Fuel, or buying Groceries. The Real World.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I'm mathematically dyslexic.

    But I don't know any stores or Gas stations that would take a bitcoin payment nor could I carry it in my pocket..

    Useless in the real world,,, useful only online at the few (pseudo-trendy) retailers accept them.

    none of which are any use to me for paying Rent, Insurance, Fuel, or buying Groceries. The Real World.
    You can easily carry them in your pocket..

    They can be converted to pay for anything currently in a variety of ways, but ya the point is the reason the price is relatively low now and one might consider buying them is that one day it is likely people will use them and they will be widely accepted. It might not be in the USA, although I hope that is the case, at some point or another people are going to find it is a fantastic alternative to fiat and a government leader will find popularity among their people for allowing it to flourish.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    You can easily carry them in your pocket..

    They can be converted to pay for anything currently in a variety of ways, but ya the point is the reason the price is relatively low now and one might consider buying them is that one day it is likely people will use them and they will be widely accepted. It might not be in the USA, although I hope that is the case, at some point or another people are going to find it is a fantastic alternative to fiat and a government leader will find popularity among their people for allowing it to flourish.
    Wow!

    My brain is just not capable of those kinds of contortions.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I'm mathematically dyslexic.

    But I don't know any stores or Gas stations that would take a bitcoin payment nor could I carry it in my pocket..

    Useless in the real world,,, useful only online at the few (pseudo-trendy) retailers accept them.

    none of which are any use to me for paying Rent, Insurance, Fuel, or buying Groceries. The Real World.
    I can't use gold to buy anything around here either, I'd have to go to a coin shop and sell the gold then go to the gas station. Same with bitcoin I'd have to sell it for cash then use the cash at the gas station. However, more and more cities have Bitcoin "ATM's' which allow you to buy or sell your bitcoins for cash, so it's becoming more convenient, and obviously can use bitcoin online, you can use bitcoin to buy giftcards for nearly all major retailers. Point is you can "almost" live off bitcoin, and only convert before you go to walmart. I can't see living off gold like that.

    No, it's not ideal, and yes if bitcoin is to be longterm successful would need alot more physical store adoption. It's only been around for 10 years, and for 5 of those years it was extremely niche, with exclusive nerd interest.

    10 years from now, I think bitcoin will either be nearly dead, and hobbling along as a footnote in history, or there will be a significant increase in real world usage. It's not been that long, it takes time to completely upend the world economy. lol.

  18. #16
    I agree that in no way is that physical delivery, but I think we get the point.
    That statement ''physical'' is what drew my attention to this thread, I thought
    omg finally a physical deliver of a futures product....



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by RonPaulIsGreat View Post
    I can't use gold to buy anything around here either, I'd have to go to a coin shop and sell the gold then go to the gas station. Same with bitcoin I'd have to sell it for cash then use the cash at the gas station. However, more and more cities have Bitcoin "ATM's' which allow you to buy or sell your bitcoins for cash, so it's becoming more convenient, and obviously can use bitcoin online, you can use bitcoin to buy giftcards for nearly all major retailers. Point is you can "almost" live off bitcoin, and only convert before you go to walmart. I can't see living off gold like that.

    No, it's not ideal, and yes if bitcoin is to be longterm successful would need alot more physical store adoption. It's only been around for 10 years, and for 5 of those years it was extremely niche, with exclusive nerd interest.

    10 years from now, I think bitcoin will either be nearly dead, and hobbling along as a footnote in history, or there will be a significant increase in real world usage. It's not been that long, it takes time to completely upend the world economy. lol.
    My main concern with bitcoin is the fact that it may very well be a cloaked, fuzzy roll out
    of 'the cashless' society, hackable as all things are, and will if not already have govt back doors
    that can shut anyone down anytime, without due process.
    ....and of course , it is still fiat just like our dollar.
    I guess the best thing to say about bitcoin and any crypo in general is that some people are making
    money with it.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    My main concern with bitcoin is the fact that it may very well be a cloaked, fuzzy roll out
    of 'the cashless' society, hackable as all things are, and will if not already have govt back doors
    that can shut anyone down anytime, without due process.
    ....and of course , it is still fiat just like our dollar.
    I guess the best thing to say about bitcoin and any crypo in general is that some people are making
    money with it.
    The rollout to a cashless society was happening before bitcoin was created. I read before that over 90% of USD is electronic, and that was quite a while ago, I'm sure it's higher now.

    Bitcoin didn't create the concept of cashless society, it's more of a reaction to allowing an arbitrarily inflationary centralized fiat currency like the dollar to completely rule the coming era.

    Here's how I look at the situation. We are heading to a cashless society. The only question is whether that cashless society is centrally controlled or not. I'd prefer not. Therefore I support Bitcoin and a few other Cryptocurrencies.

    Worries about bitcoin being "hacked" are largely overblown, it's now been 10 years and there is a multi-billion dollar prize to anyone that can hack bitcoin, and it has not happened. If you could create fake bitcoins and sell them, or hijack others accounts you would be very very wealthy, you could either steal them directly, or you could short bitcoin then reveal how you hacked it and watch the price plunge and make a fortune, no one has been able to cash in the largest hacking bounty in the history of the planet. I'd say that's very very good indicator the fundamental mechansims are solid.

    Sure EXCHANGES get hacked, but that is like a bank robbery, it's not destroying the dollar system when a singular bank is robbed, and the exchanges in all cases are robbed because they've exposed their data or network in a stupid way. If you have your bitcoin on your own hardware wallet like a trezor, and you don't let random people screw with its internal circuitry then the odds of you losing your bitcoin are less than the odds a meteor will strike you dead in the next minute. It's absurdly hard to "guess" another bitcoins private key, the number of keys are HUGE, so much so if you took all the computing power on earth to try to find one private key to unlock a singular public address it'd still take decades or centuries! I don't remember the exact time but it's stupid crazy, it'd be hugely unprofitable obviously even if you did manage it once you paid the trillion dollar power bill required to run all the computers.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by RonPaulIsGreat View Post
    The rollout to a cashless society was happening before bitcoin was created. I read before that over 90% of USD is electronic, and that was quite a while ago, I'm sure it's higher now.

    Bitcoin didn't create the concept of cashless society, it's more of a reaction to allowing an arbitrarily inflationary centralized fiat currency like the dollar to completely rule the coming era.

    Here's how I look at the situation. We are heading to a cashless society. The only question is whether that cashless society is centrally controlled or not. I'd prefer not. Therefore I support Bitcoin and a few other Cryptocurrencies.

    Worries about bitcoin being "hacked" are largely overblown, it's now been 10 years and there is a multi-billion dollar prize to anyone that can hack bitcoin, and it has not happened. If you could create fake bitcoins and sell them, or hijack others accounts you would be very very wealthy, you could either steal them directly, or you could short bitcoin then reveal how you hacked it and watch the price plunge and make a fortune, no one has been able to cash in the largest hacking bounty in the history of the planet. I'd say that's very very good indicator the fundamental mechansims are solid.

    Sure EXCHANGES get hacked, but that is like a bank robbery, it's not destroying the dollar system when a singular bank is robbed, and the exchanges in all cases are robbed because they've exposed their data or network in a stupid way. If you have your bitcoin on your own hardware wallet like a trezor, and you don't let random people screw with its internal circuitry then the odds of you losing your bitcoin are less than the odds a meteor will strike you dead in the next minute. It's absurdly hard to "guess" another bitcoins private key, the number of keys are HUGE, so much so if you took all the computing power on earth to try to find one private key to unlock a singular public address it'd still take decades or centuries! I don't remember the exact time but it's stupid crazy, it'd be hugely unprofitable obviously even if you did manage it once you paid the trillion dollar power bill required to run all the computers.
    I misspoke and was unclear using the term rollout , as of course
    debit cards and credit cards have been around for years, what
    I should be saying more to the point, is that this bitcoin is the
    first really 'trendy' and popular venue to accelerate acceptance,
    Catherine Fitts (ex hud) believes that it is quite possible a CIA
    etc syop to begin with, I don't disagree, as well, we know that
    everything is hackable, and bitcoin is just as fiat as any other
    currency , but most troublesome in my view, is the fact that
    this is another example of society embracing 'cashless' which
    is will give governments complete control over humans, they will
    be able to literally starve us to death and or turn us into thieves
    and murderers just to survive, one very simple piece of software
    will be able to shut down individuals, communities, the entire
    country.
    We have what appears to be chipped currency already out, soon
    I'm sure they will integrated into 5's and 1 dollar bills if not already.
    There is no doubt that the 'stated' justification is to thwart counterfeiters and
    ''keep us all safe'' . We are facing over the top tyranny if we allow
    the trend to continue.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Wow!

    My brain is just not capable of those kinds of contortions.
    It's an inevitability. Unless the world ends soon, I would say it is impossible that some day crypto doesn't begin taking over fiat currencies. It is far superior.. can't be manipulated, etc.. all it takes is one big success and the dominoes begin to fall.

    You couldn't stop it if you tried, neither can the elites. Neither could I.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's an inevitability. Unless the world ends soon, I would say it is impossible that some day crypto doesn't begin taking over fiat currencies. It is far superior.. can't be manipulated, etc.. all it takes is one big success and the dominoes begin to fall.

    You couldn't stop it if you tried, neither can the elites. Neither could I.
    Danno , you do realize crypto is just as fiat as our dollar.....

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    Danno , you do realize crypto is just as fiat as our dollar.....
    Wrong.

    Fiat is money by decree. The government declares fiat as money, so people have to use it. Nobody is forcing anybody to use bitcoin, nor do most people who use bitcoin want it to be that way.

    If we didn't have fiat, then people would have to use things of value. Gold and silver come to mind. But crypto actually has some advantages over gold and silver for certain types of transactions - however gold and silver have advantages over crypto as they are physical don't rely on a digital network. Both highly valuable and advantageous.
    Last edited by dannno; 01-07-2019 at 11:07 AM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Wrong.

    Fiat is money by decree. The government declares fiat as money, so people have to use it. Nobody is forcing anybody to use bitcoin, nor do most people who use bitcoin want it to be that way.

    If we didn't have fiat, then people would have to use things of value. Gold and silver come to mind. But crypto actually has some advantages over gold and silver for certain types of transactions - however gold and silver have advantages over crypto as they are physical don't rely on a digital network. Both highly valuable and advantageous.
    ok.
    ...but wait a minute, Fiat Currency is currency that is not directly and
    substantially backed by physical or tangible assets, our currency used to be
    more or less a receipt for the Precious metal held in vaults.
    And no the topic of fiat currency is not about forcing this that or the other on anyone, forcing
    is not the subject , fiat is what it is 'fiat' .
    Crypto is also hackable' as all things are, very likely bitcoin is already back doored'
    by NSA CIA , or even possibly covert op period, Catherine Fitts views that as
    a big possibility, I don't personally doubt it for a minute.
    This country needs to return to an asset based currency, bitcoin and all cryptos are
    extremely dangerous to a free society.
    I'm tickled and pleased that people are making money with bitcoin and hope it
    continues for some time, but it is a step backward for any free society, if our
    government doesn't already have a hidden grip on it, it will.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    ok.
    ...but wait a minute, Fiat Currency is currency that is not directly and
    substantially backed by physical or tangible assets, our currency used to be
    more or less a receipt for the Precious metal held in vaults.
    And no the topic of fiat currency is not about forcing this that or the other on anyone, forcing
    is not the subject , fiat is what it is 'fiat' .
    Crypto is also hackable' as all things are, very likely bitcoin is already back doored'
    by NSA CIA , or even possibly covert op period, Catherine Fitts views that as
    a big possibility, I don't personally doubt it for a minute.
    This country needs to return to an asset based currency, bitcoin and all cryptos are
    extremely dangerous to a free society.
    I'm tickled and pleased that people are making money with bitcoin and hope it
    continues for some time, but it is a step backward for any free society, if our
    government doesn't already have a hidden grip on it, it will.
    Words are really important -

    "Fiat currency is legal tender whose value is backed by the government that issued it."

    Crypto is not backed by government.

    It has great value unto itself. If you don't understand why, then I recommend learning how to use crypto. You can literally buy 50 cents worth of crypto and learn to transfer it around, send it to people, receive it from people, hold it in a wallet on your hardware, etc..

    If you get enough crypto then at some point it is worth buying a secure crypto wallet like the ledger nano S or a trezor.

    Then if you really want to test it out, go around a dangerous city carrying a silver coin, $100, a credit card and your secure crypto wallet (or you can do it merely as a thought experiment). You can pretend you were robbed.

    Guess what? You still have your crypto, but the silver and the $100 is gone. The credit card was used to buy some stuff, which may be insured, but it will be a pain to get it back. They may or may not have taken your crypto wallet, but you still have your crypto.. you can get a new crypto wallet and restore your cyrpto to that wallet. The robber cannot steal your crypto from a secured wallet..

    Now try making a payment in gold to a business in China... Now try making a payment in crypto to a business in China..

    Soon you will start to see the inherent value in crypto.
    Last edited by dannno; 01-07-2019 at 01:43 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    Danno , you do realize crypto is just as fiat as our dollar.....
    Yup.. and based on nothing but binary computer code.. errors of flipped 0s and 1s.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post


    Soon you will start to see the inherent value in crypto. [/COLOR]
    [/FONT]
    Is that like "believe in the plan"?
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Words are really important -

    "Fiat currency is legal tender whose value is backed by the government that issued it."

    Crypto is not backed by government.

    It has great value unto itself. If you don't understand why, then I recommend learning how to use crypto. You can literally buy 50 cents worth of crypto and learn to transfer it around, send it to people, receive it from people, hold it in a wallet on your hardware, etc..

    If you get enough crypto then at some point it is worth buying a secure crypto wallet like the ledger nano S or a trezor.

    Then if you really want to test it out, go around a dangerous city carrying a silver coin, $100, a credit card and your secure crypto wallet (or you can do it merely as a thought experiment). You can pretend you were robbed.

    Guess what? You still have your crypto, but the silver and the $100 is gone. The credit card was used to buy some stuff, which may be insured, but it will be a pain to get it back. They may or may not have taken your crypto wallet, but you still have your crypto.. you can get a new crypto wallet and restore your cyrpto to that wallet. The robber cannot steal your crypto from a secured wallet..

    Now try making a payment in gold to a business in China... Now try making a payment in crypto to a business in China..

    Soon you will start to see the inherent value in crypto.
    No.
    Fiat currency is currency that does not have intrinsic value, it is not backed but
    physical assets, bitcoin is also fiat currency.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Words are really important -

    "Fiat currency is legal tender whose value is backed by the government that issued it."

    Crypto is not backed by government.

    It has great value unto itself. If you don't understand why, then I recommend learning how to use crypto. You can literally buy 50 cents worth of crypto and learn to transfer it around, send it to people, receive it from people, hold it in a wallet on your hardware, etc..

    If you get enough crypto then at some point it is worth buying a secure crypto wallet like the ledger nano S or a trezor.

    Then if you really want to test it out, go around a dangerous city carrying a silver coin, $100, a credit card and your secure crypto wallet (or you can do it merely as a thought experiment). You can pretend you were robbed.

    Guess what? You still have your crypto, but the silver and the $100 is gone. The credit card was used to buy some stuff, which may be insured, but it will be a pain to get it back. They may or may not have taken your crypto wallet, but you still have your crypto.. you can get a new crypto wallet and restore your cyrpto to that wallet. The robber cannot steal your crypto from a secured wallet..

    Now try making a payment in gold to a business in China... Now try making a payment in crypto to a business in China..

    Soon you will start to see the inherent value in crypto.
    I get your point about the favorable aspects of bitcoin and crypto though I don't see
    the good anywhere near to balancing out the horribly negative features.

  33. #29
    duplicate post
    Last edited by Stratovarious; 01-07-2019 at 01:57 PM.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Yup.. and based on nothing but binary computer code.. errors of flipped 0s and 1s.
    + I believe it is extremely naïve to believe that bitcoin or any other crypto is not hackable, barter should
    be a lot more heavily used , and you don't tax barter as far as I know, I imagine though, if you traded your
    bell heli for a 56 Bertram , there would be an irs knock on the door at some point.

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