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Thread: Trump demands you turn over your bump stocks

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    Are gun rights folks sufficiently dumb and numb enough yet under Trump to let him "just stick the mushroom tip in"?
    They are smart enough not to get wrapped up in the fake news drama.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    //

    This thread would be comedy gold if it wasn't so damned tragic.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    This thread would be comedy gold if it wasn't so damned tragic.
    The only thing that is tragic are your predictions.

    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/794515671
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  6. #34
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    The only thing that is tragic are your predictions.

    https://www.gunbroker.com/item/794515671

    What predictions might those be?
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    I must nitpick, this isn't actually an ex post facto violation. But yes, it does violate 2A and the Takings Clause.
    I beg to differ.

    If there is no provision to "grandfather" what were legal items, then it most certainly is an ex post facto violation.

  9. #37
    Terrible.

    This will prevent exactly zero murders for the duration, but will increase the government arsenal of reasons to indict, charge, or convict enemies of the state when it comes time to throw an undesirable in the brig.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    What if you give them a pretend inch for one real one?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    You and dannno are trying to have it both ways ...

    If the courts are going to beat down Trump's crappy gun-grabby laws, then why wouldn't they beat down the Democrats' crappier gun-grabbier laws? Or to state things the other way around, if the courts are at all likely to allow the Democrats' crappier gun-grabbier laws, then why wouldn't they be at least as likely (if not more) to allow Trump's crappy gun-grabby laws?

    If they WOULD beat down the Democrats' crap, then why does Trump need to do anything? But if they would NOT beat down the Democrats' crap, then why should anyone expect them to beat down Trump's?

    IOW: Either Trump's crap is pointless and unnecessary at best (at worst, it is counter-productively dangerous if it does manage to pass judicial muster), or it is not a ploy ...
    Fair enough. But, as AF pointed out NOTHING about this is lawful. Second and Fifth amendments violate. Ex-post facto violation. I'm sure, as you suggest, the court could find in favor. But, that would really open that court ruling up for criticism. In fact, it might spur some movement towards limitations on E.O.'s.

    Naw, who am I kidding? This republic is good and well fooked. Get what you can while you can and keep your powder dry. Doom is upon us and reckoning is near. May it come to a head in the next 25 yrs. because after that I'll have to figure out how to mount $#@! to a walker.

  12. #40
    Whatever Trump endorses the masses do not want. If Trump wants Bump Stocks banned maybe the Left will find a new love or reasons that bump stocks should be embraced for all humanity.



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  14. #41
    It'll be going to the court....

    Gun Owners of America to File Suit Against ATF Bump Stock Ban

    Dear Friend:

    The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives (ATF) today announced its long-expected regulations banning bump stocks.

    I want to assure you that Gun Owners of America has already prepared a lawsuit against the ATF and the Department of Justice to seek an injunction protecting gun owners from these unconstitutional regulations.

    We will be filing our lawsuit as soon as the ATF's regulations are officially published.
    https://gunowners.org/goa-file-bump-...qs4ffhV-f0UJKo

  15. #42

    Don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by EBounding View Post
    I'm going to hold off and wait for the Trumpsplanation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    God damn it Matt...

    The relevant paragraph:



    This is pretty good, we've got a:

    1 - An ex post facto violation.

    2 - A Second Amendment violation.

    3 - A Fifth Amendment "takings" violation.
    There are already laws on the books restricting ownership of automatic firearms and restricting converting a semiautomatic to automatic fire. The executive is responsible for executing the law. Thus it is not an ex post facto in that it was already illegal, it was negligence by the executive to enforce the law. It's not a second amendment violation because a bump stock is not a firearm and is not essential to gun ownership or self defense. It has been demonstrated profusely that you can bump fire without using a bump stock product.

    The upside is getting this adjudicated is an opportunity to get those laws reviewed perhaps the courts will agree with you AF and end up severely restricted or even overturned.

    Last edited by spudea; 12-19-2018 at 08:20 AM.
    I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.

    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 04/20/16
    There won't be a contested convention
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 05/30/17
    The shooting of Gabrielle Gifford was blamed on putting a crosshair on a political map. I wonder what event we'll see justified with pictures like this.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    I beg to differ.

    If there is no provision to "grandfather" what were legal items, then it most certainly is an ex post facto violation.
    You don't understand what "ex post facto" means.... it literally means "after the fact"


    This would be an ex post facto law in violation of the Constitution:

    "Anyone who has previously owned a bump stock when they were legal, is now a felon because we just passed a law saying so"


    In otherwords they cannot make something illegal that was previously legal, retroactively.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    You don't understand what "ex post facto" means.... it literally means "after the fact"


    This would be an ex post facto law in violation of the Constitution:

    "Anyone who has previously owned a bump stock when they were legal, is now a felon because we just passed a law saying so"


    In otherwords they cannot make something illegal that was previously legal, retroactively.
    The illegality of the devise is ex-post facto. This is why things are grandfathered.
    Last edited by phill4paul; 12-19-2018 at 08:33 AM.

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    The illegality of the devise is ex-post facto. This is why things are grandfathered.
    No it was already illegal, it was negligence by the executive to enforce the law. You're talking about grandfathering like a new law was passed which is not the case.
    I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.

    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 04/20/16
    There won't be a contested convention
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 05/30/17
    The shooting of Gabrielle Gifford was blamed on putting a crosshair on a political map. I wonder what event we'll see justified with pictures like this.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    No it was already illegal, it was negligence by the executive to enforce the law. You're talking about grandfathering like a new law was passed which is not the case.
    I guess the court will decide. <shrug>

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    What predictions might those be?

    I linked to a bump stock that you can legally buy today. So what are you whining about? You are predicting that bump stocks will be illegal to own. Otherwise what is the point of all your whining?

    Will they ever be illegal to buy? Maybe, for a short time, till the court knocks it down.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



  22. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  23. #49
    I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.

    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 04/20/16
    There won't be a contested convention
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 05/30/17
    The shooting of Gabrielle Gifford was blamed on putting a crosshair on a political map. I wonder what event we'll see justified with pictures like this.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    I linked to a bump stock that you can legally buy today. So what are you whining about? You are predicting that bump stocks will be illegal to own. Otherwise what is the point of all your whining?

    Will they ever be illegal to buy? Maybe, for a short time, till the court knocks it down.

    So, at least you admit that I've made no firm predictions re bump stocks either way and therefore, as usual, you were talking out your nether orifice. Good. Glad to have that cleared up.

    As to your "point," I'll try to address that at some time when I'm not sitting in the hospital waiting for a consult with my wife's surgeon.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    You don't understand what "ex post facto" means.... it literally means "after the fact"


    This would be an ex post facto law in violation of the Constitution:

    "Anyone who has previously owned a bump stock when they were legal, is now a felon because we just passed a law saying so"


    In otherwords they cannot make something illegal that was previously legal, retroactively.
    Ummmm...that is exactly what "they" are doing.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    So, at least you admit that I've made no firm predictions re bump stocks either way and therefore, as usual, you were talking out your nether orifice. Good. Glad to have that cleared up.

    As to your "point," I'll try to address that at some time when I'm not sitting in the hospital waiting for a consult with my wife's surgeon.
    Wrrroonngg..

    You said this thread was tragic.. because you believe that this is going to turn into a huge tragedy. Bump stocks are going to be banned.. that's not a tragedy in and of itself, nobody takes them seriously.. but it's a slippery slope, what else will it lead to?? Magazine bans? More gun bans? Yes, that would be a tragedy.

    Except that your prediction is wrong, that is not what is going to happen.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    There are already laws on the books restricting ownership of automatic firearms and restricting converting a semiautomatic to automatic fire. The executive is responsible for executing the law. Thus it is not an ex post facto in that it was already illegal, it was negligence by the executive to enforce the law. It's not a second amendment violation because a bump stock is not a firearm and is not essential to gun ownership or self defense. It has been demonstrated profusely that you can bump fire without using a bump stock product.
    This becomes a technical issue.

    "Bump fire" is not automatic fire. It is rapid fire, but a pull of the trigger to release the sear is still required for each shot, as opposed to automatic fire, which is accomplished by repeated bolt action, firing a round every time due to the sear being disconnected while the trigger is held down.

    That is why these items were, and still are, under the current law legal.

    Now, not by law, but by regulatory agency, they will become "illegal".

    There is no "grandfathering" of what were previously legal devices, therefore this is an ex-post-facto constitutional violation.

    There is no "just compensation" for the taking of this property, therefore this is a Fifth Amendment violation.

    And this is an engineered firearm accessory, now banned by fiat, therefore this is a Second Amendment violation.

    The upside is getting this adjudicated is an opportunity to get those laws reviewed perhaps the courts will agree with you AF and end up severely restricted or even overturned.
    Let's hope so.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    The illegality of the devise is ex-post facto. This is why things are grandfathered.
    There are many newer stop signs in my neighborhood that weren't there when I was growing up. I never stop at them. I always tell the cops I am grandfathered.
    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.

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  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    This thread would be comedy gold if it wasn't so damned tragic.
    @CCTelander

    I got your PM, but your PM inbox is full so I could not reply.

    I know you've got a lot on your plate, if you have a minute, clear some space and I'll send my reply again.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    @CCTelander

    I got your PM, but your PM inbox is full so I could not reply.

    I know you've got a lot on your plate, if you have a minute, clear some space and I'll send my reply again.

    Done.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul



  31. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Wrrroonngg..

    You said this thread was tragic.. because you believe that this is going to turn into a huge tragedy. Bump stocks are going to be banned.. that's not a tragedy in and of itself, nobody takes them seriously.. but it's a slippery slope, what else will it lead to?? Magazine bans? More gun bans? Yes, that would be a tragedy.

    Except that your prediction is wrong, that is not what is going to happen.

    Thank you Nostradamus.

    While your absolute confidence in the infallibility of your own judgement and prognostications is precious and all, please forgive me if I don't share your childish naivete in that regard. I've actually lived through this before, been out there in the trenches desperately fighting to preserve what we could of the 2nd at times when losing it completely was a very real possibility. Your ignorant failure to recognize those same types of circumstances now in no way detracts from their seriousness.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    I've actually lived through this before, been out there in the trenches desperately fighting to preserve what we could of the 2nd at times when losing it completely was a very real possibility. Your ignorant failure to recognize those same types of circumstances now in no way detracts from their seriousness.
    You are joking, right??

    Based on a bump stock ban that isn't even going to materialize?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    While your absolute confidence in the infallibility of your own judgement and prognostications is precious and all, please forgive me if I don't share your childish naivete in that regard. I've actually lived through this before, been out there in the trenches desperately fighting to preserve what we could of the 2nd at times when losing it completely was a very real possibility. Your ignorant failure to recognize those same types of circumstances now in no way detracts from their seriousness.
    Do you even MAGA, bro?

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Do you even MAGA, bro?
    He thinks Trump is going to try and completely take away the 2nd amendment.. this is the definition of TDS.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

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