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Thread: Federal Judge Rules Obamacare Unconstitutional

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Nothing--nothing--has ever made medical care prices in the U.S. rise faster than the law that doctors must charge cash customers (who require no paperwork) the same prices as Medicare customers (who require reams of paperwork).

    That law never saved Medicare one penny. It only accomplished one thing--it made price gouging mandatory for the uninsured.

    Of all the laws that were ever enacted strictly to benefit insurance companies, that one--which was on the face of it supposed to protect Medicare from excessive charges--has done the insurance lobby the most good and the rest of America the most harm. And so far as Medicare is concerned, it changed not one single thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    I had no idea that was a law. Just...wow.
    Holy $#@!, neither did...

    Seriously???

    I have got to have a source for that.



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    It's old news, and now that all the search engines use Google's priorities, it isn't easy to find. Also, there have been more laws since altering and expanding the rule. This site gives a pretty good idea how it works:

    https://www.homecaremag.com/hcexpert...ue-mix-201101/

    This gives an overview of how physical therapy providers are affected:

    https://drjarodcarter.com/medicare-s...sical-therapy/

    This is short, but enlightening:

    http://www.physicianspractice.com/qa...f-pay-patients
    In-$#@!ing-Credible...

    I knew their was a vast legal swamp you dove into if you took any government payments for medical services, which explains the rise of the cash only clinics.

    I did not know it was illegal for a provider to charge less than Medicare for cash.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 12-15-2018 at 12:33 PM.



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  5. #33
    JFC...why are AmeriKunts not in the streets like the French???

    What the actual $#@! is wrong with us???

  6. #34
    That Medicare law applies to all insurances in many states. I am a healthcare provider and I don't touch any insurance, I keep a low overhead with no employees other than myself. My rates tend to be lower than most co-pays.

    Insurance has really screwed up our medical system. I talk to people who are more concerned whether their doc takes their insurance rather than if they'll get better. I hear "I think my doc is making me worse." I ask why they won't see someone else. They answer, "He takes my insurance."

    Also think how expensive not just insurance, but an oil change would be if it was mandatory for car insurance to cover regular maintenance like an oil change. Within a few years most places would charge $115 for an oil change.
    ...

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    That Medicare law applies to all insurances in many states. I am a healthcare provider and I don't touch any insurance, I keep a low overhead with no employees other than myself. My rates tend to be lower than most co-pays.

    Insurance has really screwed up our medical system. I talk to people who are more concerned whether their doc takes their insurance rather than if they'll get better. I hear "I think my doc is making me worse." I ask why they won't see someone else. They answer, "He takes my insurance."

    Also think how expensive not just insurance, but an oil change would be if it was mandatory for car insurance to cover regular maintenance like an oil change. Within a few years most places would charge $115 for an oil change.
    Japaj has a weird hybrid insurance / personal pay system. I talking to a guy who lived there when the transition happened, and he said that when people paid out of pocket, the price for a certain procedure was, say, $100. When the insurance system started, the deal was that the insurance would pay, say 80%, while the consumer paid 20%. Of course, the prices immediately rose so the out of pocket to the consumer ends up being the same $100 they originally paid, but now there's a payment to the insurer along with longer wait times.

    Such a deal.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Meanwhile,



    Sigh.
    Trump doesn't sound very conservative, saying that.
    Has he ever, really? Except for show? And even when he does ...

    "The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected." -- G.K. Chesterton (1924)

    (Or, to paraphrase Ambrose Bierce if you prefer: "A conservative is one who is enamored of existing evils, as distinct from the liberal, who wishes to replace them with new ones.")

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    JFC...why are AmeriKunts not in the streets like the French???

    What the actual $#@! is wrong with us???
    That awkward moment when the people of France have bigger balls than we do.
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    Probably not. They were covered for services while the coverage was there. Services therefore rendered.
    But the fine was for people who didn't have coverage, what you said would apply to people who signed up for O'Bummercare.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #39
    What is left of Obama's legacy now?
    I just want objectivity on this forum and will point out flawed sources or points of view at my leisure.

    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 01/15/24
    Trump will win every single state primary by double digits.
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 04/20/16
    There won't be a contested convention
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea on 05/30/17
    The shooting of Gabrielle Gifford was blamed on putting a crosshair on a political map. I wonder what event we'll see justified with pictures like this.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    What is left of Obama's legacy now?
    ISIS.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    What is left of Obama's legacy now?
    Negative $7,400,000,000,000. Much of which went to Solyndra.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    What is left of Obama's legacy now?
    Well, I lost a perfectly good physician that I really liked and in place of him, got one I didn't like at all. Before he left, he mentioned that it was because of Obamacare.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Well, I lost a perfectly good physician that I really liked and in place of him, got one I didn't like at all. Before he left, he mentioned that it was because of Obamacare.
    Well, there's still plenty of snarky uses for his YouTube clips.



    Though Dubya's are still funnier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  17. #44
    I could've saved us all a lot of headache, money, and Dr 3D's doctor and told them that for free.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Well, there's still plenty of snarky uses for his YouTube clips.



    Though Dubya's are still funnier.

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    But the fine was for people who didn't have coverage, what you said would apply to people who signed up for O'Bummercare.
    The "fine" was voluntary.

    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    What is left of Obama's legacy now?
    It accomplished what it was designed to do and that is the legacy. It removed more fiat currency from the public and kept tax refunds from entering the real economy, it was a temporary bonanza for insurance companies that knew they were on their way out of existence (thanks to planned coming universal healthcare), and was a temporary job creator to boost various .gov econ figures. Oh, and made the Obamas and their connecteds millions of dollars (remember the ~$40 million website that crashed constantly? Was created by a company owned by Michelle's sorority sister) in the process.
    Last edited by devil21; 12-15-2018 at 08:02 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    But the fine was for people who didn't have coverage, what you said would apply to people who signed up for O'Bummercare.
    my bad, misunderstood.

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  21. #48
    The SCOTUS may try to find some way to rationalize this, so as to avoid having to make a very political decision (eliminating the welfare benefits).

    The court has very little influence and guards it jealously: i.e. by not ruling on politically important topics, unless they have Congressional support.

    Anyway, supposing the high court does affirm the lower court's decision, the GOP is going to be facing a serious mess.

    Their constituents like free$#@! as much as the Dem's constituents.

    The GOP has only rhetorically opposed Obamacare; they dislike it because it has Obama's name in it.

    ...try to take away their free$#@!, subsidies for pre-existing conditions, et al, and they're likely screwed.

    And of course the President (of the GOP...?) is a long-time proponent of straight up socialized medicine.

    So..




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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    JFC...why are AmeriKunts not in the streets like the French???

    What the actual $#@! is wrong with us???
    Heck, California actually voted no to repeal the gas tax. So don't look for it to happen there.

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    Heck, California actually voted no to repeal the gas tax. So don't look for it to happen there.
    It will happen here eventually if we don't turn things around, then the war will break out between the people who have been pushed to the point of protest by the inability to make ends meet and the welfare trash/limousine liberals who still believe in the fantasy.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    I would rather see the insurance companies forced out of routine care and back into catastrophic-coverage-only. Make people pay out of pocket and watch prices drop like a stone.

    The ACA has already made health insurance near catastrophic coverage now. With co-pays and then co-insurance things don't really kick in until you have paid a lot out of pocket.


    The hidden cash prices of hospitals may currently be cheaper than insurance co-pays, although they're not really easy to find out about.
    https://www.latimes.com/business/laz...nap-story.html
    “…let us teach them that all who draw breath are of equal worth, and that those who seek to press heel upon the throat of liberty, will fall to the cry of FREEDOM!!!” – Spartacus, War of the Damned

    BTC: 1AFbCLYU3G1dkbsSJnk3spWeEwpqYVC2Pq

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    What is left of Obama's legacy now?
    Legacy?;
    Debt
    Riots
    Malfeasance
    Oath Breaking
    Racial division
    Abject Stupidity


    *one hand typing 4 few days/weeks , no spew' checkers & grammar police pleez .....

  27. #53
    ''you can keep yer dr ''
    ''yr rates wo't go up''
    ''in all 57 states''



    *one hand typing 4 few days/weeks , no spew' checkers & grammar police pleez .....

  28. #54
    What I took acception too regarding Trump's promise
    to 'KILL/REPEAL Obama care, was the fact that
    after elected, he / (admin) chgd the rhetoric to replace'
    modify' , fix' ... Trump did get rid of the mandate which was good,
    but kept the 'Beast' alive (horrible to have gbt' running
    health care) for the next Liberal regime to
    bring that mandate back and expand/replicate the 'model'
    for other programs.

    *one hand typing 4 few days/weeks , no spew' checkers & grammar police pleez .....

  29. #55
    I don't know anything about laws that make it illegal to charge less for cash paying customers. However, I do know that health care facilities way overcharge for their services so that after massive discounts or allowable cost for xyz the healthcare provider gets something. So what happens is a person goes to see a doctor and the charges are $3000 after submitted to insurance or medicare or medicaid the doctor gets $300. The doctor has to inflate the cost to get paid a pittance. If this law to charge the same amount to cash customers is true, the cash customer overpays by a huge sum because there is no one to knock the price down for them.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by kpitcher View Post
    The ACA has already made health insurance near catastrophic coverage now. With co-pays and then co-insurance things don't really kick in until you have paid a lot out of pocket.


    The hidden cash prices of hospitals may currently be cheaper than insurance co-pays, although they're not really easy to find out about.
    https://www.latimes.com/business/laz...nap-story.html
    I am looking at my payroll report right now:

    In 2018, I pay, between employer and employee payments, just a shade under $1500 a month for a family medical and dental plan.

    The medical has a $10,000 deductible, the dental plan a $200 deductible and yearly benefit cap of $1000, which you can burn up in an hour in dentist's chair.



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  32. #57
    A spokesperson from the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services told Fox News early Saturday that open enrollment for Affordable Care Act’s health insurance will continue despite the federal judge's ruling that the law is unconstitutional and must be "invalidated in whole.”
    U.S. District Judge Reed O'Connor, a federal judge in Texas appointed by President George W. Bush, ruled that last year's tax cut bill knocked the constitutional foundation from under Obamacare by eliminating a penalty for not having coverage. The rest of the law cannot be separated from that provision and is therefore invalid, he wrote.
    The decision came on the evening before the Dec. 15 deadline for Americans.
    The spokesperson from CMS told Fox that the judge’s decision, which was applauded by President Trump, is still working its way through the courts and is not the final word on the matter.
    "There is no impact to current coverage or coverage in a 2019 plan," the spokesperson said.

    More at: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/des...-official-says

    Why is it that liberal judges' rulings apply instantly to the whole country but conservative judges' rulings don't?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  33. #58

    Four states move to join defense of ObamaCare in lawsuit

    https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...are-in-lawsuit

    02/01/19

    Four more states on Thursday night signed on to join the defense of ObamaCare against a lawsuit seeking to dismantle the health care law.

    Colorado, Iowa, Michigan and Nevada are asking a federal court for permission to join a coalition of 17 states, led by California, that are defending ObamaCare in an ongoing lawsuit filed by Republican attorneys general.

    “The Affordable Care Act provides important protections — including protecting people with pre-existing conditions — care for hundreds of thousands of residents in Michigan,” Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel said Thursday, according to the Detroit News.

    The Democratic states are appealing a Texas judge's December ruling that ObamaCare is unconstitutional because it can't stand without the individual mandate penalty, which Congress recently repealed.

    Because the Trump administration declined to defend ObamaCare against the lawsuit, California and its coalition filed to intervene in the case.

  34. #59

    Federal judge dismisses Maryland's Obamacare suit

    https://www.healthdatamanagement.com...obamacare-suit


    February 01 2019

    A federal judge dismissed a lawsuit by the state of Maryland seeking a ruling that the Affordable Care Act is lawful even without the tax penalty once tied to it.

    The decision has no immediate impact on the law, commonly known as Obamacare. In a separate case that’s now on appeal, a Texas judge in December agreed with a coalition of Republican states that President Barack Obama’s signature healthcare overhaul should be scrapped because Congress removed the penalty for not having insurance.

    U.S. District Judge Ellen Hollander on Friday rejected the suit in a 47-page decision, saying the claims are speculative and that the alleged harms to the state "flow from concerns about a decision that the Trump administration has not made and may never make."

    "The president’s profound disdain for the ACA cannot be seriously disputed," she said. Yet there’s no “plausible inference” at this point that the administration “will cease enforcement of part or all of the ACA."

    The Texas judge added uncertainty to the U.S. healthcare system and strengthened the divide between Democrats who have fought to keep the law in place and Republicans who have sought to do away with the act. The judge put his ruling on hold until the appeal is resolved, and the White House said it will enforce the ACA until then.

    The Maryland case had attracted attention after the state sought to disqualify Acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker from participating because he wasn’t confirmed by the Senate.

    Hollander said she may allow Maryland to bring the suit later on.

    "We will resume this litigation immediately if the president breaks his promise of continued enforcement or when the stay of the Texas court’s decision is lifted," Maryland Attorney General Brian Frosh said in a statement.

    The case is Maryland v U.S., 18-cv-2849, U.S. District Court, District of Maryland.

  35. #60

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