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Thread: Michael Cohen sentenced to three years in prison.

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    It is indeed a crime to spend money to influence elections and not report it as such.
    I think what got Cohen all this trouble was all the unreported income . He evidently needed help with his books .
    Do something Danke



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm View Post
    I think that's a longer sentence than what Carlos Danger received.
    I expect Carlos to one day again be an elected official .
    Do something Danke



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Why didn't you answer the question I asked about botox? What about an expensive suit or a nice watch? Are those campaign expenditures?
    Generally not, though a candidate usually gets an opportunity to justify an expense if the bill was paid from a campaign account. Such expenses from campaign committee funds are very much a gray area of campaign finance that's never really been definitively addressed. The expensive suit would get a lot more leeway as a campaign expense than an expensive watch would. If there's a pattern of questionable use of funds, as opposed to a one-off instance, then it's much harder to justify such expenses.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    Generally not, though a candidate usually gets an opportunity to justify an expense if the bill was paid from a campaign account. Such expenses from campaign committee funds are very much a gray area of campaign finance that's never really been definitively addressed. The expensive suit would get a lot more leeway as a campaign expense than an expensive watch would. If there's a pattern of questionable use of funds, as opposed to a one-off instance, then it's much harder to justify such expenses.
    You're completely missing the point.... we aren't talking about spending campaign money, we are talking about personal funds..

    I have yet to hear angela or anybody for that matter admit that they believe that if a politician gets botox, teeth whitening, a nice suit or a nice watch with their personal money during a campaign, that they should go to jail because they didn't report them all as campaign expenditures... even though the primary purpose for buying them is to help the campaign.





    .............
    As a side issue, I'm pretty sure most libertarians recognize political speech as speech and are mostly or completely against campaign finance laws. Of course we are not operating in a libertarian society, so that is sort of beside the point, but it hasn't been brought up lately.
    Last edited by dannno; 12-13-2018 at 03:40 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Slave Mentality View Post
    I would do 3 years for someone for several million dollars. Sounds like Cohen may be a good attorney after all.

    On a side note, I have been truly enjoying the Christian-Trumphumper narratives on this:

    "It's not illegal!!!"

    Maybe not, but your Messiah is still a womanizing, adulterate, sleaze bag. Yeah right, he didn't know that Cohen was making these payments. Sure thing. Whatever you need to tell yourselves. Dude is a con man and people have invested so much into it that they are too ashamed to see the truth. Cognitive dissonance at it's finest.

    Lest we forget at RPFs - What is lawful and what is right are quite often opposites.
    LOL, ya, the satan worshiping pedophiles should be placed back into power .... because Trump cheated on his wife..
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    But that isn't what he did.
    We have not heard the recordings, so we don't know what he did or said.

  9. #37
    New York lawyers are the hounds of duty.
    "Perhaps one of the most important accomplishments of my administration is minding my own business."

    Calvin Coolidge

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post

    I have yet to hear angela or anybody for that matter admit that they believe that if a politician gets botox, teeth whitening, a nice suit or a nice watch with their personal money during a campaign, that they should go to jail because they didn't report them all as campaign expenditures... even though the primary purpose for buying them is to help the campaign.


    I'd abolish all the spending restrictions. But you should stop using Adams' Botox and clothing examples, because the law (which exists whether or not we agree with it) clearly addresses those issues. This isn't that.

    This also is WHY analogies suck.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    Generally not, though a candidate usually gets an opportunity to justify an expense if the bill was paid from a campaign account. Such expenses from campaign committee funds are very much a gray area of campaign finance that's never really been definitively addressed. The expensive suit would get a lot more leeway as a campaign expense than an expensive watch would. If there's a pattern of questionable use of funds, as opposed to a one-off instance, then it's much harder to justify such expenses.
    Nope. You can't use campaign funds to buy clothing unless we're talking about t-shirts for the staff and such. You can't buy food unless it's a dinner for a fundraiser or staff. You can't buy jewelry unless it's a gift to a non-family member. They have all been definitively addressed, both by statute and by precedent.

  12. #40
    Former FEC Commissioner Hans Von Spakovsky debunked the argument that President Donald Trump broke campaign finance laws by paying women he allegedly had affairs with prior to becoming president.
    The president’s former lawyer, Michael Cohen, was sentenced to three years in jail on Wednesday for a litany of crimes, including making an illegal campaign contribution amounting to $130,000 to Stormy Daniels, who alleges she slept with Trump in 2006, so she would keep quiet about the affair.
    Despite the guilty plea, Spakovsky said that Trump should not be worried because it would have to be a “campaign-related expense” for the contribution break any campaign finance laws.

    More at: https://dailycaller.com/2018/12/12/c...nce-spakovsky/
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    You're completely missing the point.... we aren't talking about spending campaign money, we are talking about personal funds..

    I have yet to hear angela or anybody for that matter admit that they believe that if a politician gets botox, teeth whitening, a nice suit or a nice watch with their personal money during a campaign, that they should go to jail because they didn't report them all as campaign expenditures... even though the primary purpose for buying them is to help the campaign.





    .............
    As a side issue, I'm pretty sure most libertarians recognize political speech as speech and are mostly or completely against campaign finance laws. Of course we are not operating in a libertarian society, so that is sort of beside the point, but it hasn't been brought up lately.
    If a candidate spends personal funds for something that is used as part of a campaign then it is considered an "in kind" contribution by the candidate and is to be reported on campaign finance reports as an in kind contribution. Just because a candidate or someone else spends on behalf of a candidate's campaign, but not directly donated into and spend out of a campaign committee account, doesn't mean it doesn't need to be reported.

    eta: It sounds like the center of the issue is whether the payoff can be reasonably construed to be campaign-related or not. If yes, then any in kind contribution would also be subject to donation limit amounts. Obviously, $130k is way above the limit for someone other than the candidate himself. I don't know if FEC rules limit the amount a candidate can in kind contribute/spend but I doubt it, therefore if Trump made the pay-off himself from his own personal funds and reported it as an in kind contribution then he'd likely be fully clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Nope. You can't use campaign funds to buy clothing unless we're talking about t-shirts for the staff and such. You can't buy food unless it's a dinner for a fundraiser or staff. You can't buy jewelry unless it's a gift to a non-family member. They have all been definitively addressed, both by statute and by precedent.
    FEC may be more specific about such purchases and sounds like you'd know better than I would. I have experience with state campaigns and such purchases may or may not be permitted, depending on circumstances. If a suit is required for a campaign event then purchasing a suit from campaign funds is permitted, for example. Buying a new suit every few weeks or outside of campaign season but with campaign committee funds would be not permitted.
    Last edited by devil21; 12-13-2018 at 07:13 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    If a candidate spends personal funds for something that is used as part of a campaign then it is considered an "in kind" contribution by the candidate and is to be reported on campaign finance reports as an in kind contribution. Just because a candidate or someone else spends on behalf of a candidate's campaign, but not directly donated into and spend out of a campaign committee account, doesn't mean it doesn't need to be reported.
    They have to prove it was for the campaign and they can't do that.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #43
    Dirty deeds, done dirt cheap for $800/hour..

    I don't often quote Mz. Linzi, but her comment that "any day your lawyer goes to prison is a bad day (or something to that effect)" was apt.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They have to prove it was for the campaign and they can't do that.
    I think under any "reasonableness" standard it would be determined to be campaign-related but I don't know what the standard for FEC stuff is.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    I think under any "reasonableness" standard it would be determined to be campaign-related but I don't know what the standard for FEC stuff is.
    Under any "reasonableness" standard it isn't campaign related, it is related to his brand and his family relations, the campaign just made it more likely that he would need to protect both.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Under any "reasonableness" standard it isn't campaign related, it is related to his brand and his family relations, the campaign just made it more likely that he would need to protect both.
    I admit to not tying myself up in the daily Trump Reality Show so my understanding of the situation isn't thorough. Having said that....

    If I were prosecuting, the questions would be simple. How long ago did Trump sleep with Daniels, et al? If years ago then why the payoff after he became a candidate, instead of before he became a candidate?

    If protecting his family from finding out was the goal, the payoff would have been made long before any candidacy. Trump has always been a public figure and could have been outed at any time by various sources. The timing of the payoff is where a reasonable person would conclude that it was a campaign related payoff.
    Last edited by devil21; 12-13-2018 at 07:35 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  20. #47
    Also troubling is the fact that "Drain the Swamp" campaign was supposed to be a MAGA thing; MAGA and his widely respected team members were not supposed to be subjects of such an operation. DTS is being turned on its head.
    I'm all for ending corruption in politics but this seems bit too ironic and even drastic.

  21. #48
    FWIW, Judge Nap seems to think Trump committed a felony.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...evidence-trump

    Fox News legal analyst Andrew Napolitano said the American public "learned" on Wednesday that federal prosecutors have evidence President Trump committed a crime.

    "Career prosecutors here in New York have evidence that the president of the United States committed a felony by ordering and paying Michael Cohen to break the law,” Napolitano said while speaking on Fox News. “How do we know that? They told that to the federal judge. Under the rules, they can’t tell that to the federal judge unless they actually have that hardcore evidence. Under the rules, they can’t tell that to the federal judge unless they intend to do something with that evidence." moreifclick
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    But that isn't what he did.
    Not sure which is more delusional, your apparent belief in this ridiculous statement or your belief in the existence of ancient egyptian golden bible plates

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    FWIW, Judge Nap seems to think Trump committed a felony.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...evidence-trump
    Judge Swamp has TDS.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    Not sure which is more delusional, your apparent belief in this ridiculous statement or your belief in the existence of ancient egyptian golden bible plates
    Let me know when you have an actual argument.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Under any "reasonableness" standard it isn't campaign related, it is related to his brand and his family relations, the campaign just made it more likely that he would need to protect both.
    Your own stupidly generous theory already admitted that it's campaign related

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    Your own stupidly generous theory already admitted that it's campaign related
    No, it didn't, campaign related means that its purpose is to help him get elected, the purpose was to protect his brand and his familial relations during a time when they would be most likely to be damaged.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    I don't know if FEC rules limit the amount a candidate can in kind contribute/spend but I doubt it, therefore if Trump made the pay-off himself from his own personal funds and reported it as an in kind contribution then he'd likely be fully clear.
    That ol' freedom lover John McCain tried to limit that, but SCOTUS nixxed it. A candidate can spend unlimited amounts of his/her own money on the campaign.

    Since you're geeky like me, note that McCain kept Senate filers from electronically filing. All filings had to go through the Senate first, via hard copy, then to the FEC As soon as he was in the ground, they finally changed the law so that Senate reports didn't have to be submitted via hard copy. But not before.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They have to prove it was for the campaign and they can't do that.
    How do you know they can't do that? Have you heard the tapes?

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    I admit to not tying myself up in the daily Trump Reality Show so my understanding of the situation isn't thorough. Having said that...

    If I were prosecuting, the questions would be simple. How long ago did Trump sleep with Daniels, et al? If years ago then why the payoff after he became a candidate, instead of before he became a candidate?

    If protecting his family from finding out was the goal, the payoff would have been made long before any candidacy. Trump has always been a public figure and could have been outed at any time by various sources. The timing of the payoff is where a reasonable person would conclude that it was a campaign related payoff.
    As I was getting at below, it is entirely reasonable and expected that the motivation of the accuser will be political, and timed to coincide with the important event. Kavanaugh and Blasey-Ford is another example. The “victims” come out when they are encouraged, and become taken by the hysteria and frenzy.

    There is no reason to pay someone off if they have not threatened (black mailed) yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Then you have the chicken or the egg dilemma. What came first, a political campaign or the threats? It could be reasonably hypothesized that the motivation of some of the women to come out was political, yet the motivation of Trump would have always been to keep it from his wife, political campaign or not. Thus the political aspect is purely on the women, not Trump. You could probably find past payouts if you looked hard enough, just less motivation for the accusers when there is no political campaign.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
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    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    How do you know they can't do that? Have you heard the tapes?
    Because it is exceedingly unlikely that Trump said anything that would prove that it was meant to help the campaign as opposed to preserving his image.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Judge Swamp has TDS.
    ....
    Because it is exceedingly unlikely that Trump said anything that would prove that it was meant to help the campaign as opposed to preserving his image.
    That's great and all but doesn't address what he's saying regarding court rules. Assuming prosecutors are following court rules then according to Nap, yes they do have evidence.

    It's topics like these that reinforce to me that Trump was told to run for President by his superiors. He has so many skeletons in the closet and surely he knew these people would be coming out of the woodwork yet still ran for the highest profile office in the land? Then when they start coming out of the woodwork, people want to claim the hush payments weren't campaign related. If you don't want your brand damaged or family compromised then you don't voluntarily run for an office that will potentially expose that history to the entire country.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    That's great and all but doesn't address what he's saying regarding court rules. Assuming prosecutors are following court rules then according to Nap, yes they do have evidence.
    It's absolutely laughable to think that they are following ANY rules as part of the witch hunt.

    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    It's topics like these that reinforce to me that Trump was told to run for President by his superiors. He has so many skeletons in the closet and surely he knew these people would be coming out of the woodwork yet still ran for the highest profile office in the land? Then when they start coming out of the woodwork, people want to claim the hush payments weren't campaign related. If you don't want your brand damaged or family compromised then you don't voluntarily run for an office that will potentially expose that history to the entire country.
    The law and the precedent is on Trump's side, if he has private reasons for the payments made with his own money then it doesn't matter if they might also affect the campaign.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It's absolutely laughable to think that they are following ANY rules as part of the witch hunt.

    The law and the precedent is on Trump's side, if he has private reasons for the payments made with his own money then it doesn't matter if they might also affect the campaign.
    I guess we will see soon enough.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

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