Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 55

Thread: The Electric Suicide of Harley-Davidson

  1. #1

    Exclamation The Electric Suicide of Harley-Davidson

    The Electric Suicide of Harley-Davidson

    https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2018...rley-davidson/

    By eric - November 13, 2018

    Imagine a Harley that doesn’t vibrate. No bark through the straight pipes when you push the starter button. No nothing through the pipes – which aren’t there anymore.

    There is no starter button.

    Just an On/Off switch.

    No shifter, either. Because no gears.

    All that remains is the “Harley” name on the tank – which isn’t one because it will never be used to store any gas. Might as well paint it on the side of your toaster.

    Welcome to the 2019 LiveWire – Harley’s first electric motorcycle. The first of a whole line of them – intended to be ready by 2025.

    They’re betting the future of the company on it.

    If you have any Harley stock, better unload it.

    Quickly.

    Because an electric Harley is as silly as juice-bar speakeasy. It runs counter to the point.

    People buy motorcycles – and especially Harley motorcycles – because they make that sound.

    And also because of the smells – of gas and oil – which attend those sounds. Without which you’ve got what amounts to alcohol-free beer.

    Or a girlfriend who won’t sleep with you.

    There is no engineering reason for the distinctive – and patented – potato-potato-potato sound which for decades has defined the presence of a Harley before you even see the Harley.

    And it is the heart and soul of a Harley.

    That sound was actually the result of a design flaw inherent in the early versions of the big V-twins – but became iconic. It is why that sound has been deliberately perpetuated – built in – as the V-twin engine was redesigned and updated over the years.

    The company even went so far as to sue other bike manufacturers who built their bikes to emulate the rowdy sound of a Hog (and then sold their knock-off Hogs for a lot less).

    What is a Harley without that sound? Think of Arnold without his muscles – or his accent.

    And think about everything else that’s not longer there. Not just the things which make a Harley, but which make a motorcycle.

    This thing goes on two wheels. That is the only thing it has in common with motorcycles. It is, fundamentally, a Moped – but lacking even the Moped’s internal combustion burble at idle. The operating principles are essentially identical.

    One does not ride this bike; one is carried along for the ride.

    You get on, turn it on – and that’s pretty much it. There’s nothing for your left hand to do except grip the bar, there being no clutch. Your legs – your feet – have even less to do than in an automatic-equipped car.

    No gears to shift, remember. An electric bike has no transmission, no speeds or gears. The only thing you do on this “bike” that you’d do on a real one is rotate the throttle to increase speed.

    They’ve taken away more than just the sound.

    There’s a brake pedal on the right side, true enough. But this bike has electrically linked (and ABS) brakes, so squeezing the right lever is all you need to do to slow it down. The rear brake cannot be modulated independently (they – the same people pushing the electric Kool Aid – are trying to eliminate this possibility on real bikes, too; see here) and so the existence of the pedal on this bike is purely vestigial.

    But the LiveWire will have an adjustable LCD color touchscreen, Bluetooth and navigation.

    Just like every other sail fawn on wheels, whether two or four.

    And, just wait. Literally.

    Like electric cars, the electric Harley takes anywhere from hours to recharge to as “little” as half an hour or so, if you plug it in to a “fast” charger. Harley has announced it will be installing these at dealerships, to “support” the electric gimpmobiles.

    This is not going to end well. For the intangible reasons already articulated – a BLT without the bacon – and for other more tangible reasons.

    Harleys – more than any other make of bike – appeal to the cruiser. The long-haul rider. The open road.

    But electric bikes – like electric cars – are stunted by abbreviated operational range. A 2019 V-twin Sport Glide carries 5 gallons of easily and quickly replaced gas and gets 47 MPG. It thus can travel almost 240 miles – and when the tank runs low, this Harley can be back on the road in minutes.

    That is freedom.

    With the LiveWire, you are tied to an electric umbilical cord.

    The opposite of freedom.

    Note also that the LiveWire is a very small bike – a stripped-down “naked” electro-sport bike – in order to squeeze as much range out of the thing as possible.

    But people who buy Harleys don’t buy sport bikes. It runs contrary to the point. People who buy Hogs want heavyweights. They want to be able to carry passengers and bags – all of which takes power, which a big V-twin can easily deliver but an electric motor not so much.

    At least, not with much range.

    Even IC-powered sport bike Harleys flopped (Buell). Now add electricity – and watch the fizzle.

    It’d be funny if it weren’t so tragic.

    So why is Harley is resorting this electric selbsmordt?

    It is because it is in trouble . . . but it is in trouble because its bikes cost too much relative to other bikes – almost all of which are made in Japan – and sold for much less. For the $10k minimum it takes to get a stripped-down/base model 1200 HD you can buy a Japanese copy of the same thing and have a lot more money left in your pocket.

    Only a small handful of Japanese bikes sticker for more than $20k. But that’s just getting rolling for a dresser Hog – the price of which can easily sail beyond $30k.

    Harley is not in trouble because its bikes aren’t electric. There is no natural demand for such things – although there is plenty of of government demand (Harley, like every other manufacturer of IC-powered vehicles – is going EV because it being forced to go EV by the government).

    Lots of people would love to own a Hog; they just can’t afford one.

    And they won’t be able to afford an electrified HD.

    Which will never be a Hog, either.

    This is the fundamental economic problem with all electric vehicles, two wheels or four.

    They cost too much. It is why they can only “sell” when subsidized (wait).

    Harley had not released LiveWire pricing info when this article was written in early November of 2018 – so we don’t know the fulsome scurvy details, yet. But – to date – everything electrified has cost substantially more than its non-electric equivalent.

    To get some idea of what this electro-Harley will cost, we can refer to the known prices of the other electric bike already on the market. It is the Zero, available in several different versions.

    The Zero S is a “naked’ middleweight bike just barely comparable to a middleweight naked/sport bike from the 1980s of around 500 ccs (its engine makes about 60 hp and the top speed of this bike is only a bit more than 100 MPH; most non-electric current-year middleweights have close to 100 hp can be counted on to hit at least 140).

    The S stickers for $13,995 (with the “upgrade” battery that gives you 90 miles of highway range) which is about $5,000 more than you’d pay for a current 650-ish cc naked/middleweight sport bike.

    Of course, Harley is counting on the government to “help.”

    There are incentives – taxpayer-extorted palm greasing – for the buyers of electric bikes, just as there are for electric cars. $900 in California; $1,440 in Maryland.

    Even if you don’t ride an electric bike, you’ll still be forced to buy one . . . for someone else.

    Just like Teslas.

    That’s the new business model in these waning days of the empire.

    It’s too bad for Harley. And it’s too bad for us.
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #2

  4. #3
    Throw it in the woods.

  5. #4
    Dump the stock if you did not already.
    Do something Danke

  6. #5
    LOL - I forgot who here said it. "Harley's market is to sell motorcycles". Good fking luck. RIP HD.

    Fking r3tards.

    News flash - nobody buys a HD because its modern and efficient. People want 1950's technology, loud, over sized, and obnoxious. Ask Volkswagen about the compact car. Those idiots were too good for the compact car. When Volkswagen abandoned the market they created, for a much better one, who filled the gap?

    /disgusted

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"



  7. #6
    I thought the whole point of motorcycles was to give chicks orgasms while they ride with you.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    I thought the whole point of motorcycles was to give chicks orgasms while they ride with you.
    Setting off car alarms, being buffeted by the wind, and gliding across the lane is pretty nice too.

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"



  9. #8

    Don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows



  10. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  11. #9
    The noise is only part of Harley's appeal. As for the rest? The electric doesn't have that either. Electrics are smooth.

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Perhaps you think they are in the motorcycle market. The way I see it, there are three aspects to the motorcycle market. There are those who want a vehicle which is both quick and fast. There are those who want a vehicle which is cheaper than a car and goes at least seventy miles on a gallon. And there are those who simply want something reliable and affordable which allows them to tool around in the open air. Clearly Harley Davidsons are none of these things.

    So, are they even in the business of making motorcycles? Or are they in the business of making pussy magnets? After all, the things are distinctive, iconic, overdecorated and overpriced enough to be status symbols. And their long-stroke, odd-fire V-twins are terrible engines, but outstanding vibrators. That's why you have to re-tighten all the bolts every month. And that's why women are always wet when they dismount. They are big, expensive vibrators.

    Now then. Why would they need to understand the motorcycle market when they're in the vibrator market?
    And why would the federal government--currently dominated by RINOs--insist on destroying them by forcing them out of the vibrator market?

    Of course, it is possible to make electric vibrators. It is done every day. But Harley has survived making vibrators that big and expensive all these years because men buy them, and many men won't pay that much for a vibrator. So, you have to pretend it's just a motorcycle. If they put that big eccentric weight on the electric motor, however, it will no longer be possible to keep that secret.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 11-16-2018 at 10:11 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  12. #10
    This is what happens when a bunch of Harvard MBAs, SJWs, lawyers and bean counters take over a company that has a core business that not one in ten of management staff even know what it is.

    The same thing happened to the outfit I work for. A bunch of over educated $#@!ing geniuses with more degrees than a thermometer, took a billion dollar cash surplus and a huge private vessel fleet and in five years bankrupted it.

    This happened because they turned a boat company that had an office into an office company that had boats.

    This is just what HD is doing, turning themselves into an office company that has motorcycles.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    This is what happens when a bunch of Harvard MBAs, SJWs, lawyers and bean counters take over a company that has a core business that not one in ten of management staff even know what it is.

    The same thing happened to the outfit I work for. A bunch of over educated $#@!ing geniuses with more degrees than a thermometer, took a billion dollar cash surplus and a huge private vessel fleet and in five years bankrupted it.

    This happened because they turned a boat company that had an office into an office company that had boats.

    This is just what HD is doing, turning themselves into an office company that has motorcycles.
    Zippy will be along any minute to tell you that Trumps steel tariffs are what is driving Harley-Davidson out of America. What it is is they are hedging against plummeting stock by going electric. They'll blame poor decisions on Trump. $#@! 'm. They are dead to me.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Zippy will be along any minute to tell you that Trumps steel tariffs are what is driving Harley-Davidson out of America. What it is is they are hedging against plummeting stock by going electric. They'll blame poor decisions on Trump. $#@! 'm. They are dead to me.

  15. #13
    They just need to put some speakers on it with a 1000 watt amp, playing the sounds of a locomotive.

  16. #14
    The wuss-i-fication of Harley Davidson.

  17. #15
    Electric? What’s the point?

    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  18. #16
    Sorry Guys,, but I have to disagree..

    I am really liking the possibilities.. and I've been turning wrench a long time..

    Battery tech is improved,as has motor efficiency.. And performance is impressive.

    It is the direction the world is going,,

    I am not sure I like the direction Harley is going,, but that is likely to evolve also..

    Livewire, Zero,Brutus and others will all develop the tech and improve on it.

    Not sure I like (ok, I'm sure I don't like some of it) the Livewire... but I like the Idea.
    I wanna build my own.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



  19. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Electric? What’s the point?
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  21. #18
    I already got one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    They just need to put some speakers on it with a 1000 watt amp, playing the sounds of a locomotive.
    That's what I did.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Sorry Guys,,
    Don't apologize to me. You're right, electric has possibilities. An electric Sportster has possibilities. They could come up with something they could sell enough of to almost break even. But will they?

    All they need is to keep compliant so they can keep building Hogs. But if they try to sell electric Hogs, they'll lose the company shirt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    The noise is only part of Harley's appeal. As for the rest? The electric doesn't have that either. Electrics are smooth.



    And why would the federal government--currently dominated by RINOs--insist on destroying them by forcing them out of the vibrator market?

    Of course, it is possible to make electric vibrators. It is done every day. But Harley has survived making vibrators that big and expensive all these years because men buy them, and many men won't pay that much for a vibrator. So, you have to pretend it's just a motorcycle. If they put that big eccentric weight on the electric motor, however, it will no longer be possible to keep that secret.

    They could just build vibrators into the seats, so you could flip a switch or something if you want one of the seats to vibrate.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    They could just build vibrators into the seats, so you could flip a switch or something if you want one of the seats to vibrate.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    They could just build vibrators into the seats, so you could flip a switch or something if you want one of the seats to vibrate.
    Harley already added the "Whine" sound.. They wanted a distinctive Sound. (unnecessary)

    I like this better,,as a factory bike.
    http://brutusmotorcycle.com/brutusV9.html

    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  26. #23
    Yeah, here's the thing... Last Saturday I hooked up the trailer for my quarterly dump run.
    On the way there I was behind a group of older guys riding full dressers, wearing their POW vests, going the same speed as me in my full size van with kids in it hauling a trailer full of garbage.
    One at a time they peeled off individually and rode into neighborhoods.

    I opined to the wife at the time:
    "This is why Harleys suck. These guys are riding bikes that are supposed to be for long rides. These guys aren't wrapping up a three-day ride at 11am on a Saturday: they all decided to ride to Bob Evans for breakfast and try to look cooler than they really are.
    You know who has balls that are veritable planetoids compared to those posers? It's the 22 year olds riding GSX/Rs at 90mph wearing nothing but shorts, sandals, and sleeveless T-shirts."

    Eric is wrong about Buell. Buell failed because Harley killed it. From everything I can tell on the topic, Buells were selling well - not great, but well enough for what it was - and Harley doubled down on what they see as their core demographic and sacrificed a company that was pulling its own weight.
    Buell was selling what was in demand at the time... and would still be selling them today if Harley had spent an ounce of givea$#@! on the whole project.

    Harley is selling a product that they practically intend not to be used for its stated purpose. Nobody should be surprised that this market is disappearing.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    I thought the whole point of motorcycles was to give chicks orgasms while they ride with you.


    For chicks,, bikes and a Livewire suicide.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    I rather Like this,, but it's pricey



    and this one is interesting.

    https://www.logostech.net/silenthawk...-phase-2-sbir/

    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  30. #26


    Wheeeee!
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  31. #27
    “Clean energy”. Where’s Ocasio-Cortez? Maybe she can explain where that magic electricity comes from to charge electric vehicles. I suspect it’s a mystery to her, but it might be unicorns shooting electric rainbows out their asses.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  32. #28
    Disclaimer: any post made after midnight and before 8AM is made before the coffee dip stick has come up to optomim level - expect some level of silliness,

    The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are out numbered by those who vote for a living !!!!!!!

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    “Clean energy”.
    I am looking at it from Efficiency, Practicality, and some nostalgia.

    I watch 60+ trains pass this house every day hauling untold tons of product,,, on electric motors.

    I would like to replace the inefficient gas sucking Iron Weights with electric motors and Keep the classic Cars on the road.. as daily drivers.

    and electric bikes would supply the personal autonomous transportation in urban environs.

    I don't care for self driving cars,, but am not opposed to useful tech.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  34. #30
    People buy motorcycles – and especially Harley motorcycles – because they make that sound.

    And also because of the smells – of gas and oil – which attend those sounds. Without which you’ve got what amounts to alcohol-free beer.

    Or a girlfriend who won’t sleep with you.
    They might have something about Harley specifically- that has been their branding after all. But to imply that about all motorcycles is patently stupid. Most motorcycles do not sound like someone is murdering a mechanical duck with a lawnmower. Nor do they vibrate like a 40 year old carnival ready to break the last bolt holding it together. Harley's are terrible motorcycles. Simple.

    Say good bye to your dinosaurs. They're going the way of the covered wagon and the Model T.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 19
    Last Post: 06-27-2018, 08:32 PM
  2. First VW now Harley Davidson
    By Anti Federalist in forum Open Discussion
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 08-28-2016, 04:11 PM
  3. Harley-Davidson introduces electric motorcycle
    By Suzanimal in forum Open Discussion
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 06-23-2014, 08:38 AM
  4. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 07-13-2013, 12:21 PM
  5. Harley-Davidson axes 1,000 as profits hit skids
    By disorderlyvision in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-16-2009, 03:01 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •