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Thread: Do you want a freer country or do you just want to stroke your own ego?

  1. #91
    The OP's question is appropriate to ask of anarchist libertarians, some of whom are regrettably non-pragmatic.

    But it's rich for the OP to ask this...

    ...people of his mind are not in fact pragmatists interested in maximizing human liberty.

    They have their own sacred cows (e.g. national self-determination), which they aren't willing to slaughter in the interest of liberty.

    They're interested in maximizing the liberty of only those persons who happen to live within an arbitrary geographical radius of their own location.

    Meanwhile, they claim that anyone who extends pragmatism beyond those arbitrary limits is a tyrant.

    ...i.e. exactly the same head-in-the-sand idealism as the anarchists (though at least the ideals of the anarchists are libertarian).

    The world's not short on irony.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken



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  3. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The OP's question is appropriate to ask of anarchist libertarians, some of whom are regrettably non-pragmatic.

    But it's rich for the OP to ask this...

    ...people of his mind are not in fact pragmatists interested in maximizing human liberty.

    They have their own sacred cows (e.g. national self-determination), which they aren't willing to slaughter in the interest of liberty.

    They're interested in maximizing the liberty of only those persons who happen to live within an arbitrary geographical radius of their own location.

    Meanwhile, they claim that anyone who extends pragmatism beyond those arbitrary limits is a tyrant.

    ...i.e. exactly the same head-in-the-sand idealism as the anarchists (though at least the ideals of the anarchists are libertarian).

    The world's not short on irony.

    I believe my right to self defense gives me the right to secure a territory large enough defend my rights and leave others to do as they please, the anarchists believe that I don't have a right to secure my liberty from those who would take it and you believe that you have a right to draft and tax others to allow you to impose your will on foreigners.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I believe my right to self defense gives me the right to secure a territory large enough defend my rights and leave others to do as they please, the anarchists believe that I don't have a right to secure my liberty from those who would take it and you believe that you have a right to draft and tax others to allow you to impose your will on foreigners.
    You believe that national groups have a right to self-determination; the rest is a (failed) attempt to rationalize that with libertarianism.

    In fact, your nationalism, consisting of (a) a rejection of inter-national intervention in the interest of advancing human liberty, and (b) support for domestic policies which benefits domestic residents at the expense of the liberty of human beings in general, runs contrary to the pragmatic argument in favor of the state, on which you hypocritically rely in criticizing anarcho-capitalists (who are indeed mistaken, but you're in no position to criticize them: at least not on those grounds).

    By way of illustration:

    Pragmatist Libertarian: The state is bad, engages in aggression, but the situation which would exist in the absence of the state (i.e. not a free market in defense as you hope, but choas, tribal warfare) is worse: i.e. entails even more aggression. So, in the interest of maximizing liberty, we ought to support the state, and aim to minimize its aggression as much as possible.

    Anarcho-Capitalist: Lalala, I can't hear you... Tyrant!

    ...

    Pragmatist Libertarian: If the goal is to maximize human liberty, it shouldn't matter where these humans happen to live. Granted, most inter-state military interventions go poorly (at least when looking at recent history), but there is no reason to oppose in principle an intervention which would result in a net gain for human liberty, taking into account the costs and benefits of the various parties concerned. More liberty is better than less; this should be non-controversial.

    Nationalist "Libertarian": Lalala, I can't hear you... Tyrant!

    OR

    Nationalist "Libertarian": [insert elaborate rationalization for why more liberty is actually bad]

    Pragmatist Libertarian:
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 11-21-2018 at 10:01 PM.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  5. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    You believe that national groups have a right to self-determination; the rest is a (failed) attempt to rationalize that with libertarianism.

    In fact, your nationalism, consisting of (a) a rejection of inter-national intervention in the interest of advancing human liberty, and (b) support for domestic policies which benefits domestic residents at the expense of the liberty of human beings in general, runs contrary to the pragmatic argument in favor of the state, on which you hypocritically rely in criticizing anarcho-capitalists (who are indeed mistaken, but you're in no position to criticize them: at least not on those grounds).

    By way of illustratration:

    Pragmatist Libertarian: The state is bad, engages in aggression, but the situation which would exist in the absence of the state (i.e. not a free market in defense as you hope, but choas, tribal warfare) is worse: i.e. entails even more aggression. So, in the interest of maximizing liberty, we ought to support the state, and aim to minimize its aggression as much as possible.

    Anarcho-Capitalist: Lalala, I can't hear you... Tyrant!

    ...

    Pragmatist Libertarian: If the goal is to maximize human liberty, it shouldn't matter where these humans happen to live. Granted, most inter-state military interventions go poorly (at least when looking at recent history), but there is no reason to oppose in principle an intervention which would result in a net gain for human liberty, taking into account the costs and benefits of the various parties concerned. More liberty is better than less; this should be non-controversial.

    Nationalist "Libertarian": Lalala, I can't hear you... Tyrant!

    OR

    Nationalist "Libertarian": [insert elaborate rationalization]

    Pragmatic Libertarian:
    You insist on violating the rights of others beyond that which is necessary to protect your own, that make you a tyrant with a god complex.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You insist on violating the rights of others beyond that which is necessary to protect your own, that make you a tyrant with a god complex.
    I insist that more liberty is better than less.

    That makes me a libertarian.

    Hence, the hodgepodge of arbitrary claims which constitute your theory of ethics (which you recently invented for the purpose of maintaining the pretense that your nationalism is consistent with libertarianism, after I demonstrated to you that it isn't), I find less than compelling...
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  7. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I insist that more liberty is better than less.
    But your method is to violate others rights beyond what self defense can justify, that doesn't produce more liberty.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That makes me a libertarian.
    That makes you an egomaniac.


    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Hence, the hodgepodge of arbitrary claims which constitute your theory of ethics (which you recently invented for the purpose of maintaining the pretense that your nationalism is consistent with libertarianism, after I demonstrated to you that it isn't), I find less than compelling...
    My theory is entirely consistent.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  9. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    But your method is to violate others rights beyond what self defense can justify, that doesn't produce more liberty.
    Your position is not that intervention is bad because it doesn't increase liberty.

    Your position is that intervention would be bad even if it did increase liberty.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  10. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Your position is not that intervention is bad because it doesn't increase liberty.

    Your position is that intervention would be bad even if it did increase liberty.
    My position is that intervention CAN'T increase liberty.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    My position is that intervention CAN'T increase liberty.
    No, sigh, it isn't.

    We've been over this many times.

    You do claim that intervention can't increase liberty (which is preposterous on its face, even on your worldview, since you yourself advocate intervention, so long as it occur within some arbitrary geographical area called the "nation-state"), but you also claim that intervention (outside that arbitrary geographical area) is bad regardless of whether it increases liberty. Don't you recall telling me how the North Koreans have a "right to be enslaved," or something to that effect, such that intervention, even if it could be done successfully and at trivial cost, would be wrong? Don't you recall all your talk about the nation's "collective rights"?
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  12. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    No, sigh, it isn't.

    We've been over this many times.

    You do claim that intervention can't increase liberty (which is preposterous on its face, even on your worldview, since you yourself advocate intervention, so long as it occur within some arbitrary geographical area called the "nation-state"), but you also claim that intervention (outside that arbitrary geographical area) is bad regardless of whether it increases liberty. Don't you recall telling me how the North Koreans have a "right to be enslaved," or something to that effect, such that intervention, even if it could be done successfully and at trivial cost, would be wrong? Don't you recall all your talk about the nation's "collective rights"?
    I advocate for the establishment of a state in the absence of one to protect my rights and the rights of those who will be part of the state that is established, that is different from advocating the extra violation of my fellow citizens' rights to provide no benefit to them and to force others to arrange their state to my satisfaction.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    blah blah blah
    You oppose intervention in principle, even if it advances liberty, because you put national self-determination above liberty.

    You can't even deny this; you just change the subject.

    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  14. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    You oppose intervention in principle, even if it advances liberty, because you put national self-determination above liberty.

    You can't even deny this; you just change the subject.


    I didn't change the subject, I explained the difference between what I advocate and intervention.
    Intervention can't advance liberty.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I didn't change the subject, I explained the difference between what I advocate and intervention.
    Intervention can't advance liberty.
    If an intervention would result in a net gain for liberty, would it be justified?

    Alternatively, if a domestic policy benefiting natives would result in a net loss for liberty, would it be unjustified?

    In other words, is more liberty better than less, or not?
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 11-21-2018 at 11:09 PM.
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  16. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    If an intervention would result in a net gain for liberty, would it be justified?
    If 2+2 came out 3 would that be good or bad for liberty?

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Alternatively, if a domestic policy benefiting natives would result in a net loss for liberty, would it be unjustified?
    No, but I doubt we will agree on whether there is a net loss if you are thinking of any of the policies I think you are thinking of.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    In other words, is more liberty better than less, or not?
    More is better but the question is what will/can produce more or less.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  18. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    If an intervention would result in a net gain for liberty, would it be justified?
    If 2+2 came out 3 would that be good or bad for liberty?
    I'm looking for an answer, not an evasion.

    Let's try again:

    If an intervention would result in a net gain for liberty, would it be justified?
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  19. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I'm looking for an answer, not an evasion.

    Let's try again:

    If an intervention would result in a net gain for liberty, would it be justified?
    And I will reply again with an equivalent question:

    If killing you would extend your life would it be medically ethical?

    Intervention can't result in a net gain for liberty.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  20. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    And I will reply again with an equivalent question:

    If killing you would extend your life would it be medically ethical?

    Intervention can't result in a net gain for liberty.
    And this is why I call you intellectually dishonest.

    Adios
    "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

    -H. L. Mencken

  21. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    And this is why I call you intellectually dishonest.

    Adios
    You demand an answer to an impossibility and I am the one who is intellectually dishonest?

    Via con queso.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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