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Thread: Do you want a freer country or do you just want to stroke your own ego?

  1. #1

    Do you want a freer country or do you just want to stroke your own ego?

    Liberty is a state of being, if it is never actualized then it doesn't exist.
    Results are the end, theory is just a means, if following your theory fails to bring results or even brings negative results then something is wrong with your theory.

    Theories have a habit of ignoring complexities and only considering a few basic factors.

    If you are a "pure" libertarian or anarchist and allow millions of communists to move into your area they will create a communist state.
    Theory: Pure Freedom
    Result: Absolute Tyranny
    Question: Considering that the result you produced was communism how are you not a communist?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #2
    So naturally we need to fight communism with biometric IDs, myriad police checkpoints and a Berlin Wall.

    Rah rah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Question: Considering that the result you produced was communism how are you not a communist?
    But, of course, if the result you produce is fascism that does not make you a fascist, right?

    Right?



    The communists say there can only be communists and fascists, and the fascists say there can only be communists and fascists. And the real, non-troll libertarians still quote the Bard:

    A pox on both your houses!--William Shakespeare
    Last edited by acptulsa; 11-14-2018 at 10:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So naturally we need to fight communism with biometric IDs, myriad police checkpoints and a Berlin Wall.

    Rah rah.



    But, of course, if the result you produce is fascism that does not make you a fascist, right?

    Right?

    That's all you've got?

    Strawmen?

    It's too bad for you that there are other ways to secure the border and control immigration.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #4
    In other words:
    "When I say 'free,'" Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

  6. #5
    This whole thread is nothing but a strawman. When did you stop kicking your dog? There is no good way out of this now despite all the calls for gubment to "protect us". Millions are already here, way more than reported. Trump isn't going to send them back, nor is he going to limit them coming in any major fashion. What he is going to do is make sure they're good subjects of the state, and then our dear freedom loving government is going to turn that same firepower on us.

    But hey, carry on with your calling anyone with eyes to see a leftist or a tool.
    "The Patriarch"

    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    As is regularly pointed out on this forum, Trump is an idiot, a liar, and regularly uses bloated exaggeration so why would anyone put much stock into what he says? I think it's easy to figure Trump out. Sorry you are still confused.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That is a lie.
    @Brian4Liberty, devil keeps spreading this lie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I will report violations of the forum rules to the forum staff when they are egregious enough.

    You should remember that.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    In other words:
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This whole thread is nothing but a strawman. When did you stop kicking your dog? There is no good way out of this now despite all the calls for gubment to "protect us". Millions are already here, way more than reported. Trump isn't going to send them back, nor is he going to limit them coming in any major fashion. What he is going to do is make sure they're good subjects of the state, and then our dear freedom loving government is going to turn that same firepower on us.

    But hey, carry on with your calling anyone with eyes to see a leftist or a tool.
    Just what I would expect out of our resident anarchists:

    "Nothing can be done, it's too late, just let things get worse"

    "P.S. Just forget that we told you not to do anything before it was too late"


    Well the rest of us don't buy that load of garbage, there are things we can do about it and it isn't too late, nor does it require creating a police state.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Just what I would expect out of our resident anarchists:

    "Nothing can be done, it's too late, just let things get worse"

    "P.S. Just forget that we told you not to do anything before it was too late"


    Well the rest of us don't buy that load of garbage, there are things we can do about it and it isn't too late, nor does it require creating a police state.
    Please do tell.
    "The Patriarch"

    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    As is regularly pointed out on this forum, Trump is an idiot, a liar, and regularly uses bloated exaggeration so why would anyone put much stock into what he says? I think it's easy to figure Trump out. Sorry you are still confused.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That is a lie.
    @Brian4Liberty, devil keeps spreading this lie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I will report violations of the forum rules to the forum staff when they are egregious enough.

    You should remember that.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Please do tell.
    We can start by ending birthright citizenship, cutting off welfare, requiring proof of citizenship/legal residence to wire money out of the country, increasing the patrols on the border and enforcing the laws we already have.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We can start by ending birthright citizenship, cutting off welfare, requiring proof of citizenship/legal residence to wire money out of the country, increasing the patrols on the border and enforcing the laws we already have.
    That's a mixed bag, only half of it stands a chance of being done. Trump might amp up the border patrol, he's not going to cut welfare. Ending anchor baby idiocy would be a major win. But in the end the infrastructure created won't go away, it never does, it will be pointed at us.
    "The Patriarch"

    Quote Originally Posted by spudea View Post
    As is regularly pointed out on this forum, Trump is an idiot, a liar, and regularly uses bloated exaggeration so why would anyone put much stock into what he says? I think it's easy to figure Trump out. Sorry you are still confused.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That is a lie.
    @Brian4Liberty, devil keeps spreading this lie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I will report violations of the forum rules to the forum staff when they are egregious enough.

    You should remember that.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That's all you've got?

    Strawmen?

    It's too bad for you that there are other ways to secure the border and control immigration.
    You're not paying much attention, are you? Only the Trumpwall is a straw man. Checkpoints and biometric IDs are very real, existential menaces.
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.

  14. #12
    Decisions must first be made according to what is morally right. Committing injustice is never justified just because I reason that it will result in me being better off materially than following the Creator's just law.

    I am persuaded that free markets also happen to bring about the greatest material good for the most people. So in the end, they are not subject to the criticism of making us worse off anyway. But this is secondary to more basic moral imperatives.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You're not paying much attention, are you? Only the Trumpwall is a straw man. Checkpoints and biometric IDs are very real, existential menaces.
    And even before those things, just consider the tracking mechanisms that have already long been in place. Consider how we are all prohibited from trading our labor for financial compensation without first providing our employers with all kinds of information about ourselves, usually including a unique government issued identification number, which those employers are then obligated to provide the government so as to verify that we conform to the government's categories of those people whom it says are permitted to engage in such an exchange.

    That this situation is considered tolerable here is strange. That it is not just tolerated, but that there are those who positively demand that it be expanded and who complain that the laws in place requiring such things are not enforced stringently enough is inexplicable.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    You're not paying much attention, are you? Only the Trumpwall is a straw man. Checkpoints and biometric IDs are very real, existential menaces.
    It's a strawman to claim that I support them.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Decisions must first be made according to what is morally right. Committing injustice is never justified just because I reason that it will result in me being better off materially than following the Creator's just law.

    I am persuaded that free markets also happen to bring about the greatest material good for the most people. So in the end, they are not subject to the criticism of making us worse off anyway. But this is secondary to more basic moral imperatives.
    Please explain what is moral about letting communists tyrannize your children and grandchildren.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty is a state of being, if it is never actualized then it doesn't exist.
    Results are the end, theory is just a means, if following your theory fails to bring results or even brings negative results then something is wrong with your theory.

    Theories have a habit of ignoring complexities and only considering a few basic factors.

    If you are a "pure" libertarian or anarchist and allow millions of communists to move into your area they will create a communist state.
    Theory: Pure Freedom
    Result: Absolute Tyranny
    Question: Considering that the result you produced was communism how are you not a communist?
    For someone who hates arguing with anarchists, you sure bait them a lot.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    For someone who hates arguing with anarchists, you sure bait them a lot.
    It's a compulsion.

    But in any case this thread is aimed at open borders believers of all stripes not just the anarchists.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty is a state of being, if it is never actualized then it doesn't exist.
    Results are the end, theory is just a means, if following your theory fails to bring results or even brings negative results then something is wrong with your theory.

    Theories have a habit of ignoring complexities and only considering a few basic factors.

    If you are a "pure" libertarian or anarchist and allow millions of communists to move into your area they will create a communist state.
    Theory: Pure Freedom
    Result: Absolute Tyranny
    Question: Considering that the result you produced was communism how are you not a communist?
    I was going to post something similar to this in regards to unlimited voting. Since unlimited voting always leads to socialism, if you support unlimited voting you support socialism. Or too dumb to understand the simple dynamic of how unlimited voting => progressive taxation => socialism pretty much like night follows day.

    It's like saying you don't support explosions but you keep pouring gas and lighting matches.

    The difference is that unlimited voting is the root cause of socialism whereas unlimited immigration is just a secondary cause.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    I was going to post something similar to this in regards to unlimited voting. Since unlimited voting always leads to socialism, if you support unlimited voting you support socialism. Or too dumb to understand the simple dynamic of how unlimited voting => progressive taxation => socialism pretty much like night follows day.

    It's like saying you don't support explosions but you keep pouring gas and lighting matches.

    The difference is that unlimited voting is the root cause of socialism whereas unlimited immigration is just a secondary cause.
    One is the gas, the other is the match.

    If you have unlimited immigration without unlimited voting you will develop a large class of immigrants who aren't given the vote and they will agitate for the "right" to vote, if the natives succumb to the agitation they will get the vote and you will end up with socialism, if they resist you will probably end up with an uprising and foreign intervention followed by socialism.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty is a state of being, if it is never actualized then it doesn't exist.
    Results are the end, theory is just a means, if following your theory fails to bring results or even brings negative results then something is wrong with your theory.

    Theories have a habit of ignoring complexities and only considering a few basic factors.

    If you are a "pure" libertarian or anarchist and allow millions of communists to move into your area they will create a communist state.
    Theory: Pure Freedom
    Result: Absolute Tyranny
    Question: Considering that the result you produced was communism how are you not a communist?
    This x1000. If we end up as a communist state, it's because people let it happen and didn't do anything to stop it. (e.g. voting)
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  24. #21
    Stop dreaming, you won't get any better than what you have.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    Stop dreaming, you won't get any better than what you have.
    Yes we will.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #23
    Too many dreamers on here, who frankly don't want to live in a responsible society, ego alright, too much about one's ownself. Until the day one needs it. Why so many middle aged folk knocking themselves off in the states, must be the society of selfishness causing that.

    Liberty people are a minority.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    Too many dreamers on here, who frankly don't want to live in a responsible society, ego alright, too much about one's ownself. Until the day one needs it. Why so many middle aged folk knocking themselves off in the states, must be the society of selfishness causing that.

    Liberty people are a minority.
    You are a loser, you will lose.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    Stop dreaming, you won't get any better than what you have.
    Gets better all the time here in my empire .
    Do something Danke

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty is a state of being, if it is never actualized then it doesn't exist.
    Fallacy from the first sentence. In fact every sentence was almost textbook post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacies.

    But thanks for the rep today.

    I probably do consider myself a purist, but I think it likely stems from my faith and faith should be unwaivering. However, that does not mean purists are just armchair experts. We're often very involved and impactful, and we'd probably all be a little less abrasive if the party would just shift our way just a little (I promise it wouldn't result in a tsunami of communist migrants).
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by tfurrh View Post
    Fallacy from the first sentence. In fact every sentence was almost textbook post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacies.
    If you say so, all I know is that results matter more than theory, if a theory brings the wrong results then something is wrong with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tfurrh View Post
    But thanks for the rep today.

    My rep record doesn't show me giving rep to "tfurrh" in the last few days.
    But I'm sure you do things to deserve it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tfurrh View Post
    I probably do consider myself a purist, but I think it likely stems from my faith and faith should be unwaivering.
    The problem is that this world is run by mortals who don't deserve unwavering faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by tfurrh View Post
    However, that does not mean purists are just armchair experts. We're often very involved and impactful, and we'd probably all be a little less abrasive if the party would just shift our way just a little (I promise it wouldn't result in a tsunami of communist migrants).
    I'm glad you do good things but we are already suffering under a tsunami of communist migrants and if we were a libertarian country we would be even wealthier which would attract even more.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I'm glad you do good things but we are already suffering under a tsunami of communist migrants and if we were a libertarian country we would be even wealthier which would attract even more.
    Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy
    Last edited by tfurrh; 11-15-2018 at 10:37 PM.
    "It's probably the biggest hoax since Big Foot!" - Mitt Romney 1-16-2012 SC Debate

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by tfurrh View Post
    Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy
    Wealth doesn't attract the greedy?
    Millions of immigrants didn't come to America in search of streets of gold?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    ...and if we were a libertarian country we would be even wealthier which would attract even more.
    So, that's why you're anti-libertarian? You love the U.S.A. so much you're afraid to let it replicate its former success?
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    There's not a liberty lover on the planet who isn't called a liberal by the right, and a con by the left.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't really care if I happen to be wrong about your positions, you are wrong about mine.

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