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Thread: Rebuking patriotism vs nationalism

  1. #1

    Rebuking patriotism vs nationalism

    Now that Macron brought this main stage, here is my rebuttal.

    Patriotism is about fighting to defend your country, usually militarily.

    Nationalism is about not sacrificing your citizens, not being run by lunatics from across the globe, and reinvokes federalism and subsidiarity.

    The only problem with nationalism is how much further we need to decentralize. I pray one day we can get past the nationalism vs globalism debate and focus on localism vs nationalism.

    Any ad hominem attacks (which is all they are) on nationalism are meant to shut up and smear people in order to prevent them from having the real conversations the globalists don't want you to have.

    So to conclude, patriotism and nationalism are not contradictory.



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by kona View Post
    Now that Macron brought this main stage, here is my rebuttal.

    Patriotism is about fighting to defend your country, usually militarily.

    Nationalism is about not sacrificing your citizens, not being run by lunatics from across the globe, and reinvokes federalism and subsidiarity.

    The only problem with nationalism is how much further we need to decentralize. I pray one day we can get past the nationalism vs globalism debate and focus on localism vs nationalism.

    Any ad hominem attacks (which is all they are) on nationalism are meant to shut up and smear people in order to prevent them from having the real conversations the globalists don't want you to have.

    So to conclude, patriotism and nationalism are not contradictory.
    Any true patriot is a nationalist.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by kona View Post
    ...
    So to conclude, patriotism and nationalism are not contradictory.
    Are nationalism and globalism contradictory... or one can be a globalist and a nationalist at same time?
    That is engaging in global interventions to make money for funders/sell weapons etc to create well paying jobs but also playing nationalist role by threatening global leaders to cut ties unless they pay their fair share towards global freedom spread /occupation projects contributions.

    There seems to debates going on lately about MAGA being a globalist vs nationalsist, no one seems to know for sure.

    But lately, increasing number of hardcore conservatives/Right/Far Right/Left/Far Left have been alleging that MAGA is a stealth puppet of globalist lobbies with nefarious agendas:

    Trump Alliance with Body-Choppers, Death Squads & Child Killers: Saudi Arabia, Brazil & Israel

  5. #4
    Patriotism is about love. Nationalism is about team.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Bern View Post
    Patriotism is about love. Nationalism is about team.
    No, Nationalism is about protection.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #6
    According to Macron’s version of history, the millions of soldiers who died in the war were actually fighting to defend the “universal values” of France, and to reject the “selfishness of nations only looking after their own interests.”

    That would have probably been news to almost all the soldiers who fought in World War I — that they were fighting to defend the “universal values” of France. It is highly doubtful that any German soldier was fighting to defend anything having to do with France. It is much more likely that German soldiers, and even French soldiers, were fighting because their nation’s leaders drafted them into their armies and sent them off to fight for reasons that are still debated today.

    A closer look at Macron’s assertion that the war was a result of “nationalism,” and that we owe gratitude to those soldiers fighting for the “universal values” of France that rescued all of us from that supposedly evil philosophy of nationalism, reveals a far different picture.

    For one thing, it was the anti-Christian French Revolution of 1789 that plunged Europe into war for a generation in an effort to spread supposedly French values. Had those “values” not been beaten back at Waterloo in 1815, all of Europe would have suffered under the military dictatorship of Napoleon Bonaparte. But, of course, Europe would have then been “at peace,” a peace of tyranny under supposedly “universal French values.”

    Rather than a result of nationalism, the First World War was more a result of the multiple treaty obligations of various nations, the very internationalism touted by Macron. Germany became a nation in 1871, following the defeat of France in the Franco-Prussian War. This left the French wanting revenge, and looking for allies to get that revenge. The British Empire, concerned that the Germans under Kaiser Wilhelm II, were going to challenge their supremacy of the oceans by building its own fleet, moved steadily into a relationship with France. The relationship became formal when Russia joined with France and Great Britain in a military relationship called The Triple Entente — hardly nationalism, but rather internationalism.

    The Germans formed their own alliance with the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and Italy (which proved to be a rather undependable ally when the shooting started in 1914). This system of alliances — not “nationalism” — is what created the toxic conditions that caused a regional dispute between Austria and Serbia to become a global war.

    The Russians supported their Serbian allies after the assassination of the Archduke of Austria by Serbian terrorists, by mobilizing troops on Germany’s border. This action had been precipitated after Germany gave Austria a “blank check” to handle Serbia however they wished. When France began its own secret mobilization (which was hard to keep completely secret, and the Germans quickly realized what was happening), the Germans opted to not wait until France attacked in the West.

    The problem was that the German battle plan called for an attack upon France through “neutral” Belgium. This caused Britain to honor an 1839 treaty with Belgium, and declare war on Germany. (It is now known that the British were probably going to enter the war, anyway, on the side of France, and the violation of Belgian neutrality just offered a convenient pretext.)

    The Germans — looking for additional allies — lured the Ottoman or Turkish Empire into the conflict, to give problems to the Turk’s traditional enemy, Russia.

    What about that international order that Macron favors over nationalism? Since the creation of the United Nations (in 1945, after a previous attempt at world government failed following World War I), along with many other multinational organizations, we have seen multiple wars across the globe, increased growth of government power, with a corresponding loss of individual liberty.

    And, despite Macron’s remarks, it was not the fault of nationalism. It certainly was not the fault of the “America First” policy, as enunciated by President Trump. If anything, the cause for much of the world’s problems today can be laid at the foot of globalism. It certainly was the principal cause of a regional conflict in 1914 exploding into a world war, rather than the “nationalism” decried by French President Macron.

    More at: https://www.thenewamerican.com/world...of-world-war-i
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #7
    Nationalism (in politics) is a late 19th/early 20th century political philosophy and means pretty much the opposite of what you said. Nationalism in the arts is a different thing, which is probably where you got confused, OP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Nationalism (in politics) is a late 19th/early 20th century political philosophy and means pretty much the opposite of what you said. Nationalism in the arts is a different thing, which is probably where you got confused, OP.
    Nationalism has been redefined as any belief in independent nations.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  11. #9
    President Macron’s protests against nationalism this weekend stand in stark contrast with the words of France’s WWII resistance leader and the man who would then become president: General Charles de Gaulle.

    Speaking to his men in 1913, de Gaulle reminded them:
    “He who does not love his mother more than other mothers, and his fatherland more than other fatherlands, loves neither his mother nor his fatherland.”
    This unquestionable invocation of nationalism reveals how far France has come in its pursuit of globalist goals, which de Gaulle described later in that same speech as the “appetite of vice.”
    While this weekend the media have been sharpening their knives on Macron’s words, for use against President Trump, very few have taken the time to understand what really created the conditions for the wars of the 20th century. It was globalism’s grandfather: imperialism, not nationalism.
    This appears to have been understood at least until the 1980s, though forgotten now. With historical revisionism applied to nationalism and the great wars, it is much harder to understand what President Trump means when he calls himself a “nationalist.” Though the fault is with us, not him.
    Patriotism is the exact opposite of nationalism: nationalism is a betrayal of patriotism … By pursuing our own interests first, with no regard to others,’ we erase the very thing that a nation holds most precious, that which gives it life and makes it great: its moral values,” President Macron declared from the pulpit of the Armistice 100 commemorations.
    Had this been in reverse, there would no doubt have been shrieks of disgust aimed at Mr. Trump for “politicizing” such a somber occasion. No such shrieks for Mr. Macron, however, who languishes below 20 percent in national approval ratings in France.
    With some context applied, it is remarkably easy to see how President Macron was being disingenuous.
    Nationalism and patriotism are indeed distinct. But they are not opposites.
    Nationalism is a philosophy of governance, or how human beings organize their affairs. Patriotism isn’t a governing philosophy. Sometimes viewed as subsidiary to the philosophy of nationalism, patriotism is better described as a form of devotion.
    For all the grandstanding, Mr. Macron may as well have asserted that chicken is the opposite of hot sauce, so meaningless was the comparison.
    Imperialism, we so quickly forget, was the order of the day heading into the 20th century. Humanity has known little else but empire since 2400 B.C. The advent of globalism, replete with its foreign power capitals and multi-national institutions is scarcely distinct.
    Imperialism — as opposed to nationalism — seeks to impose a nation’s way of life, its currency, its traditions, its flags, its anthems, its demographics, and its rules and laws upon others wherever they may be.
    Truly, President Trump’s nationalism heralds a return to the old U.S. doctrine of non-intervention, expounded by President George Washington in his farewell address of 1796:
    ” … It must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves, by artificial ties, in the ordinary vicissitudes of [Europe’s] politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.”
    It should not have to be pointed out that the great wars of the 20th century could not be considered “ordinary vicissitudes”, but rather, that imperialism had begun to run amok on the continent.
    It was an imperialism rooted in nihilism, putting the totality of the state at its heart. Often using nationalism as nothing more than a method of appeal, socialism as a doctrine of governance, and Jews as a subject of derision and scapegoating.
    Today’s imperialism is known as globalism.
    It is what drives nations to project outward their will, usually with force; causes armies to cross borders in the hope of subjugating other human beings or the invaded nation’s natural resources; and defines a world, or region, or continent by its use of central authority and foreign capital control.
    Instead of armies of soldiers, imperialists seek to dominate using armies of economists and bureaucrats. Instead of forced payments to a foreign capital, globalism figured out how to create economic reliance: first on sterling, then on the dollar, now for many on the Euro. This will soon be leapfrogged by China’s designs.
    And while imperialism has served some good purposes throughout human history, it is only when grounded in something larger than man; whether that be natural law, God, or otherwise. But such things are scarcely long-lived.
    While benevolent imperialism can create better conditions over a period of time, humanity’s instincts will always lean towards freedom and self-governance.
    It is this fundamental distinction between the United States’ founding and that of the modern Republic of France that defines the two nations.
    The people of France are “granted” their freedoms by the government, and the government creates the conditions and dictates the terms upon which those freedoms are exercised.
    As Charles Kesler wrote for the Claremont Review of Books in May, “As a result, there are fewer and fewer levers by which the governed can make its consent count”.
    France is the archetypal administrative state, while the United States was founded on natural law, a topic that scarcely gets enough attention anymore.
    Nationalism - or nationism, if you will - therefore represents a break from the war-hungry norm of human history. Its presence in the 20th century has been rewritten and bastardized.
    A nationalist has no intention of invading your country or changing your society. A nationalist cares just as much as anyone else about the plights of others around the world but believes putting one’s own country first is the way to progress. A nationalist would never seek to divide by race, gender, ethnicity, or sexual preference, or otherwise. This runs contrary to the idea of a united, contiguous nation at ease with itself.
    Certainly nationalism’s could-be bastard child of chauvinism can give root to imperialistic tendencies. But if the nation can and indeed does look after its own, and says to the world around it, “these are our affairs, you may learn from them, you may seek advice, we may even assist if you so desperately need it and our affairs are in order,” then nationalism can be a great gift to the 21st century and beyond.
    This is what President Trump understands.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...-and-globalism
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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