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Thread: Venezuela and gold

  1. #1

    Venezuela and gold

    I searched and didn't see an existing thread dedicated to this topic, so SIAP.

    Trump/USA recently dropped the hammer on Venezuela:
    President Donald Trump signed an executive order authorizing new sanctions on Venezuela’s gold sector, in a bid to disrupt trade with Turkey that U.S. officials fear is undermining efforts to pressure the South American nation’s president, Nicolas Maduro.

    The order, signed Wednesday by Trump and announced at a speech Thursday by National Security Adviser John Bolton, targets people operating corruptly within Venezuela’s gold sector. It’s expected to significantly impact the country’s economy, according to a senior administration official who requested anonymity to discuss the announcement before it was made.
    ...
    The Treasury Department is expected to outline implementation of the new Venezuela sanctions authority later Thursday. While the initial effort will focus on the country’s gold sector, Trump’s order gives the State and Treasury departments authority to target additional industries in the future.

    “The new sanctions will target networks operating within corrupt Venezuelan economic sectors and deny them access to stolen wealth,” Bolton said. “Most immediately, the new sanctions will prevent U.S. persons from engaging with actors and networks complicit in corrupt or deceptive transactions in the Venezuelan gold.”
    ...
    Venezuela’s gold industry has been under scrutiny by U.S. officials in recent weeks, with the Treasury Department noting that many mines are run by criminal gangs, a situation that is environmentally disastrous. The sanctions are likely to have a particular effect on trade with Turkey, with tons of gold sent there annually for refinement and processing. Officials have also voiced concern that some of the gold may find its way to Iran in violation of sanctions on the Islamic Republic.
    ...
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ressure-maduro

    Now, news is breaking that Venezuela wants to repatriate more of their gold from the BoE:
    Venezuela is seeking to repatriate about $550 million in gold bars from the Bank of England because of fears it could be caught up in international sanctions on the country, two sources with direct knowledge of the effort told Reuters.

    Venezuela’s hard currency holdings have dwindled as existing U.S. financial sanctions have effectively blocked President Nicolas Maduro’s government from borrowing on international markets.
    ...
    Maduro’s government is seeking to bring 14 tonnes of gold held in the Bank of England back to Venezuela, according to two public officials with direct knowledge of the operation, who asked not to be identified.

    The Bank of England has sought to clarify what Venezuela wants to do with the gold, one of the officials said.

    Venezuela’s central bank did not respond to a request for comment. The Bank of England declined to comment.

    The plan has been held up for nearly two months due to difficulty in obtaining insurance for the shipment, needed to move a large gold cargo, one of the officials said.

    “They are still trying to find insurance coverage, because the costs are high,” the official said.
    ...
    The amount is equivalent to five times the total hard currency that Venezuela has sold in 2018 via hard currency auctions that are carried out under the country’s 15-year-old exchange control system, according figures compiled by local consultancy Sintesis Financiera.
    ...
    But even if Venezuela manages to repatriate the gold, the new U.S. sanctions could make selling it to raise hard currency difficult.

    “If the government wants to carry out operations with the gold that it plans to bring, it would have to be done with allied countries because of the sanctions,” said Tamara Herrera, an economist with Sintesis Financiera.
    ...
    The country’s late socialist leader Hugo Chavez, citing the need for Venezuela to have physical control of central bank assets, in 2011 repatriated around 160 tonnes of gold from banks in the United States and Europe to the central bank in Caracas.

    But some of Venezuela’s gold remained in the Bank of England. Starting in 2014, Venezuela used this gold for “swap” operations in which global banks lent Venezuela several billion dollars with the gold as collateral.

    Venezuelan central bank statistics show the central bank’s gold holdings by June this year had dropped to 160 tonnes from 364 tonnes in 2014, as some of the swap agreements expired without Venezuela returning the funds - leaving the gold in the hands of the banks.

    In 2017, such swap agreements became difficult due to U.S. sanctions, which blocked U.S. financial institutions from bankrolling any new financing operations.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-v...-idUSKCN1NA1Q7

    "The Bank of England has sought to clarify what Venezuela wants to do with the gold ..."

    What? If I make a withdrawal at a bank, and the banks "seeks to clarify what I want to do with my money", I tell them instead of a withdrawal, I'm closing my account. It's none of their business. Maybe the reporting here was just really bad (vague) and they meant they sought clarity in how the gold was to be shipped, but as written, the sentence is a head scratcher.

    Held up for two months because insurance? Right... They manged to ship 160 tonnes home in 2011 but now face insurmountable hurdles shipping 14 tonnes. Very believable.

    "But even if Venezuela manages to repatriate the gold ..."

    I find it really odd for Reuters to suggest that Venezuela would not be able to repatriate their gold.



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Bern View Post

    "The Bank of England has sought to clarify what Venezuela wants to do with the gold ..."

    What? If I make a withdrawal at a bank, and the banks "seeks to clarify what I want to do with my money"...
    That's an easy answer: Whatever I fking damn well please - as if its any of your damn business!

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
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  4. #3
    Bank Of England Refuses To Release Venezuela's Gold

    Three days ago, when we reported that following Trump's latest sanctions targeting Venezuela's gold sector president Maduro was seeking to repatriate all of Venezuela's gold - some 14 tons - held at the Bank of England …

    Today, the worst case - for Venezuela's president - was confirmed, when the Times reported that the Bank of England has "refused to release the gold bars" worth just over $550 million to President Nicolas Maduro. According to the Times, the reason the BoE has refused release is due to its insistence that standard measures to prevent money-laundering be taken — "including clarification of the Venezuelan government’s intentions for the gold." …
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    Bank Of England Refuses To Release Venezuela's Gold

    Three days ago, when we reported that following Trump's latest sanctions targeting Venezuela's gold sector president Maduro was seeking to repatriate all of Venezuela's gold - some 14 tons - held at the Bank of England …

    Today, the worst case - for Venezuela's president - was confirmed, when the Times reported that the Bank of England has "refused to release the gold bars" worth just over $550 million to President Nicolas Maduro. According to the Times, the reason the BoE has refused release is due to its insistence that standard measures to prevent money-laundering be taken — "including clarification of the Venezuelan government’s intentions for the gold." …
    Well, he and his cronies did steal most of the oil revenues and other businesses. Would they handle $550 million in gold any better?

  6. #5
    Pretty foolish for Venezuela to store gold outside the country .
    Do something Danke

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Pretty foolish for Venezuela to store gold outside the country .
    ^^^THIS^^^
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  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Pretty foolish for Venezuela to store gold outside the country .
    In some cases, the gold is outside the country because it was once owned by that country. We sell goods to country A and they use some of their proceeds to exchange for gold (as was allowed under the gold standard). Now some of the gold in our vaults belonged to them. Move it? Leave it? A label was only changed in the vault to signify who the new owner was. Some countries do keep gold outside their country to protect it if the country was overthrown too though. Plus transportation can be risky and costly and you need a new secure place to store it yourself. Best to leave it where it is.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    In some cases, the gold is outside the country because it was once owned by that country. We sell goods to country A and they use some of their proceeds to exchange for gold (as was allowed under the gold standard). Now some of the gold in our vaults belonged to them. Move it? Leave it? A label was only changed in the vault to signify who the new owner was. Some countries do keep gold outside their country to protect it if the country was overthrown too though. Plus transportation can be risky and costly and you need a new secure place to store it yourself. Best to leave it where it is.
    If you don't control the vault then you don't own the gold, it's funny watching you try to claim leaving the gold in the UK or sending it there wasn't foolish in this thread.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If you don't control the vault then you don't own the gold, it's funny watching you try to claim leaving the gold in the UK or sending it there wasn't foolish in this thread.
    Germany worried about Russia/ USSR invading and possibly seizing all their gold (they had afterall fought two wars in the previous 50 years with them- the threat was very real). Was it foolish of them to move some to the US or the UK?

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Germany worried about Russia/ USSR invading and possibly seizing all their gold (they had afterall fought two wars in the previous 50 years with them- the threat was very real). Was it foolish of them to move some to the US or the UK?
    Yes.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #11
    I find it funny that their country is so poor that they are worried about $550 million in gold. The University of Texas endowment has $1 billion in gold in a vault. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n-new-ceo-says

    Quote Originally Posted by brushfire View Post
    That's an easy answer: Whatever I fking damn well please - as if its any of your damn business!
    I also find it funny that people are semi defending the Venezuelan government. They should be worried. It is our business. Venezuela has stolen far more than $550 million from American businesses. They still owe Exxon $1.6 billion for stealing their oil business in Venezuela. The US government should take their gold from them as well as any other assets to make the American businesses whole. http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...009-story.html


    ConocoPhllips is owed $2 billion. They have the right idea. Take what's theirs back. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKCN1IE0Y8 "U.S. oil major ConocoPhillips (COP.N) has seized products belonging to Venezuelan state oil company PDVSA [PDVSA.UL] from the Isla refinery it runs on Curacao, an island official told Reuters on Sunday."
    Last edited by Krugminator2; 11-12-2018 at 09:14 PM.

  14. #12
    Germany spent over $9 million just in transportation to bring 300 tonnes of gold from France.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    I also find it funny that people are semi defending the Venezuelan government. They should be worried. It is our business. Venezuela has stolen far more than $550 million from American businesses. They still owe Exxon $1.6 billion for stealing their oil business in Venezuela. The US government should take their gold from them as well as any other assets to make the American businesses whole. http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...009-story.html


    ConocoPhllips is owed $2 billion. They have the right idea. Take what's theirs back. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKCN1IE0Y8 "U.S. oil major ConocoPhillips (COP.N) has seized products belonging to Venezuelan state oil company PDVSA [PDVSA.UL] from the Isla refinery it runs on Curacao, an island official told Reuters on Sunday."
    Maybe you could also look at the thieves in Trump's cabinet. For example its richest member: long-time Rothschild investment banker Wilbur Ross…

    Wilbur Ross first invested in Navigator Holdings in 2011. In the summer of 2012, WL Ross took control of Navigator by buying a further $110 million stake from the collapsed Lehman Brothers bank. Navigator Holdings earns millions a year transporting oil and gas for the Russian Sibur.
    In 2016, 31.5% was still held by entities in which Ross has a stake (WLR). In 2017, the WLR stake in Navigator was worth about $179 million, but it is not clear how much is held by Ross personally.

    Navigator vessels also carried out extensive business with the Venezuelan state oil company PDVSA, records show, at a time when Venezuela’s government was cracking down on opposition. Trump imposed sanctions on PDVSA in August: https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...aradise-papers

    Sibur is NOT under Russian sanctions which gives it a competitive edge over companies that are: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN1HD22K
    Last edited by Firestarter; 11-13-2018 at 04:35 AM.
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  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    I find it funny that their country is so poor that they are worried about $550 million in gold. The University of Texas endowment has $1 billion in gold in a vault. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n-new-ceo-says



    I also find it funny that people are semi defending the Venezuelan government. They should be worried. It is our business. Venezuela has stolen far more than $550 million from American businesses. They still owe Exxon $1.6 billion for stealing their oil business in Venezuela. The US government should take their gold from them as well as any other assets to make the American businesses whole. http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...009-story.html


    ConocoPhllips is owed $2 billion. They have the right idea. Take what's theirs back. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKCN1IE0Y8 "U.S. oil major ConocoPhillips (COP.N) has seized products belonging to Venezuelan state oil company PDVSA [PDVSA.UL] from the Isla refinery it runs on Curacao, an island official told Reuters on Sunday."
    So that's what this is about? The US government, operating through the BOE, is trying to reclaim assets for Conoco and for Exxon? I'm for property rights, whether that be gold or a refinery. I also dont believe its a bank's business what I do with my fking money, how much I make per year, and how I make it. Just my opinions on property and banks.

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"



  17. #15
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  18. #16
    Venezuela's gold holdings in the Bank of England have jumped after it closed out a gold swap deal with Deutsche Bank, according to two sources, as Britain remains reluctant to release gold held for the troubled OPEC nation.The government of Nicolas Maduro has since last year been seeking to repatriate about $550 million in gold from the Bank of England on fears it could be caught up in international sanctions on the country.
    Its holdings at the bank more than doubled in December to 31 tonnes, or around $1.3 billion, after Venezuela returned funds it had borrowed from Deutsche Bank AG (DBKGn.DE) through a financing arrangement that uses gold as collateral, known as a swap, one of the sources said.
    Under the deal struck with Deutsche Bank in 2015, Venezuela put up 17 tonnes of gold in exchange for a loan, according to one of the sources who asked not to be identified because they are not authorized to speak publicly about the issue.
    The country's gold holdings fell to 134 tonnes in November compared with 150 tonnes at the start of 2018, according to central bank statistics.
    This is in part because Venezuela last year started carrying out gold barter operations with Turkey to import food following U.S. sanctions that have made international banks reluctant to handle Venezuelan transactions.
    The motivation for paying back the funds from the Deutsche swap was not immediately evident. But redeeming the swap would give Venezuela more gold for barter operations with Turkey.
    Deutsche Bank declined to comment. Venezuela's Central Bank did not reply to an email seeking comment.
    The Bank of England said in a statement that it does not comment on customer relationships.


    Calixto Ortega, president of Venezuela's central bank, met with Bank of England officials in December to discuss repatriating the gold but was unable to convince them, according to sources familiar with the situation.
    Venezuela for decades stored gold that makes up its central bank reserves in foreign bank vaults, which is common among developing nations.
    The country's late socialist leader Hugo Chavez, citing the need for Venezuela to have physical control of central bank assets, in 2011 repatriated around 160 tonnes of gold from banks in the United States and Europe to the central bank in Caracas.

    More at: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/venez...173328139.html
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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