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Thread: [189 Dead] Lion Air: How could a brand new plane crash?

  1. #1

    [189 Dead] Lion Air: How could a brand new plane crash?

    Lion Air: How could a brand new plane crash?

    ...Lion Air flight JT 610 has crashed into the sea, with nearly 190 people on board, shortly after taking off from the Indonesian capital, Jakarta.

    A lot of attention has focused on the fact the plane, a Boeing 737 MAX 8, was brand new. This is the first major incident involving that kind of plane.
    ...
    It had logged only 800 hours of flight time, according to the head of the National Transportation Safety Commission, Soerjanto Tjahjano.

    The pilot is reported to have radioed air traffic control in Jakarta asking for permission to turn back, shortly after taking off.

    Now it has emerged that the plane had some technical problems on Sunday on its penultimate flight.

    A technical log obtained by the BBC for that flight - from Denpasar airport in Bali to Jakarta - suggests that the airspeed reading on the captain's instrument was unreliable, and the altitude readings differed on the captain's and first officer's instruments.

    As a result of the problem, the captain handed over control of the plane to the first officer, the crew continued their flight and they landed safely at Jakarta.

    Lion Air have not confirmed the report, but this may have been the unspecified "technical problem" that the company's chief executive said the plane's Denpasar to Jakarta flight had suffered from.

    Edward Sirait said that this problem had been "resolved according to procedure".

    He added that Lion Air was currently operating 11 aircraft of the same model. He said there were no plans to ground the rest of the planes.
    ...
    More: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46014260
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  3. #2
    How could a brand new plane crash?
    A brand new pilot?
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  4. #3
    https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/30/asia/...ntl/index.html

    While no information has been released yet as to why the brand-new plane crashed into the sea 13 minutes after takeoff, FlightRadar24 has published data that shows the plane behaving erratically during takeoff. When a plane would normally be ascending in the first few minutes of flight, the Lion Air jet experienced a 726-foot drop over 21 seconds.

    Aviation expert Philip Butterworth-Hayes told CNN that the data was unusual -- especially since takeoffs like this are typically controlled by the plane's automatic systems.

    "This doesn't fit an automatic flight profile," Butterworth-Hayes said while studying the data. "Unless, the aircraft was trying to correct itself at the time for a number of reasons."

    "This shows an unusually unstable vertical flight profile," he added.

    "Exactly at the same time as the speed increased there was an altitude dip, which meant that at that point there was quite some loss of control."
    ...
    Former US National Transportation Safety Board air crash investigator and CNN aviation analyst Peter Goelz told CNN the data clearly showed issues with both the speed and altitude of the plane.

    "There is something obviously wrong in both the air speed and the altitude which would point to the flight control systems," he said. "These are fly-by-wire systems -- highly automated -- and pilots may not be able to troubleshoot failures in a timely manner."
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
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    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  5. #4
    How could a brand new plane crash?
    Gravity.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post

    Another crap narrative from CNN.
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  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Another crap narrative from CNN.
    Phillip Butterworth Hayes , I lol'd I thought someone just made that $#@! up .
    Do something Danke

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    A brand new pilot?
    In October 2018 an Air India plane hit a 6 feet wall on take off. The plane was damaged extensively but landed safely. Good plane and bad pilots.

  9. #8
    Clearly the Indonesian government was responsible for this.
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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Itsback View Post
    In October 2018 an Air India plane hit a 6 feet wall on take off. The plane was damaged extensively but landed safely. Good plane and bad pilots.
    Well, the Captain of Lion Air flight JT 610 was from India too...
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  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Well, the Captain of Lion Air flight JT 610 was from India too...
    Indians are not good at handling planes. All the airline companies in India are running into big losses.

    Many Sukhoi -30 of Indian Air force have crashed.

  13. #11
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/new...ectid=12151421

    LION AIR'S DARK PAST

    The crash of the Lion Air flight, despite clear weather, experienced flight crew and a Boeing 737 just two months old, has cast a dark spotlight on Indonesia's chequered aviation history and that of Lion Air, one of the country's biggest and youngest airlines that has just suffered its deadliest disaster.

    The low-cost airline, which launched in 2000, has seen a number of crash landings and aircraft malfunctions. These are some of the most dramatic moments in the airline's short history.

    2004: Just four years after it started operating, Lion Air suffers its first deadly crash, when 25 people are killed when flight 538 crashes into a cemetery in Surakarta.

    2006: A McDonnell Douglas aircraft was written off when it crashed after touching down at Juanda International Airport and skidding off the runway. It was found the left thrust reverser, which was needed for the landing, was out of service. There were no fatalities.

    2007: All Indonesian airlines, including Lion Air, are banned from flying to Europe due to safety concerns. The European Union's ban relaxed over the next decade, and was completely lifted in June. The US also lifted a 10-year ban on Indonesian airlines in 2016.

    2010: Some passengers are injured when flight 712 landed on its belly at Supadio Airport. All 174 passengers and crew are evacuated by the emergency slides.

    2011 and 2012: Lion Air pilots are arrested for drug possession.

    2013: On April 13, flight 904 from Bangdung to Denpasar with 108 people on board crashed into waters near Bali after overshooting the runway. The fuselage of the Boeing 737-800 split into two parts and passengers had to swim for their lives. Miraculously, all survived.

    2014: Two passengers were seriously injured and three suffered minor injuries when a Boeing 737-900 landed hard on the runway at Surabaya's Juanda airport and bounced five times on the runway.

    2017: About 300 litres of fuel spilt on the tarmac at Surabaya's Juanda International Airport from a Lion Air aircraft's wings. All passengers were evacuated and the plane was grounded for further investigation.

    2018: On April 28, flight 892 ran off the runway at Jalaluddin Airport after landing under heavy rain conditions. The main nose gear collapsed but there were no fatalities.

    The European Commission says it has no immediate plans to ban Indonesian airline Lion Air again after yesterday's crash.

    Harro Ranter, who runs the Aviation Safety Network, told AP that Indonesian airlines dealt with difficult terrain, frequent bad weather leading to poor visibility and shortcomings with air traffic controllers.

    "Indonesia does stand out … they did have some really bad accidents in the past," he said.

    "It's hard to judge if they have made sufficient progress with regard to safety."


    The Lion Air crash appears to be the first involving the Boeing 737 Max 8, a more fuel-efficient update of Boeing's 737, which is the best-selling airliner ever.

  14. #12
    That's is what it sounded like from initial reporting.

    Crashed Lion Air jet had air speed indicator glitch on fatal flight: official


    An Indonesian Lion Air jet that plunged into the Java Sea last week, killing all 189 on board, had an air speed indicator problem on its fatal flight and on three previous journeys, the country's transportation watchdog said Monday.
    The new details -- gleaned from a recovered flight data recorder -- come after the government said it was launching a "special audit" of the budget carrier's operations.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/indonesia...--finance.html


    The sun was already up, and reported good weather.

    This is a bigger problem at night or in the clouds. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Either way, the procedure is to initially establish a known pitch and power setting while troubleshooting. Should not result in a crash.
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  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    This is a bigger problem at night or in the clouds. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Either way, the procedure is to initially establish a known pitch and power setting while troubleshooting. Should not result in a crash.
    If I recall correctly there is a formula that converts ground speed into a rough approximation of air speed.

    Ground speed can be obtained through a number of sources such as GPS and radar tracking.
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  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    If I recall correctly there is a formula that converts ground speed into a rough approximation of air speed.

    Ground speed can be obtained through a number of sources such as GPS and radar tracking.
    Goundspeed would have been available on board. Adjust for the wind component and you roughly have True Airspeed. That is virtually the same as Indicated Airspeed below 3000 feet MSL.


    For any altitude flown above 3,000 feet, subtract 3 knots per 1000′ above 3000’ from the TAS to get your (rough) IAS.
    Last edited by Danke; 11-05-2018 at 11:03 AM.
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  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Goundspeed would have been available on board. Adjust for the wind component and you roughly have True Airspeed. That is virtually the same as Indicated Airspeed below 3000 feet MSL.


    For any altitude flown above 3,000 feet, subtract 3 knots per 1000′ above 3000’ from the TAS to get your (rough) IAS.
    Ground speed v Air speed in a Vertical dive? (calculating)
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  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Ground speed v Air speed in a Vertical dive? (calculating)
    That is why the Immediate Action procedure (required memory item) is two know the pitch and power settings for a clean and dirty configuration that will keep the aircraft in the flyable envelope.
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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    That's is what it sounded like from initial reporting.

    Crashed Lion Air jet had air speed indicator glitch on fatal flight: official


    An Indonesian Lion Air jet that plunged into the Java Sea last week, killing all 189 on board, had an air speed indicator problem on its fatal flight and on three previous journeys, the country's transportation watchdog said Monday.
    The new details -- gleaned from a recovered flight data recorder -- come after the government said it was launching a "special audit" of the budget carrier's operations.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/indonesia...--finance.html


    The sun was already up, and reported good weather.

    This is a bigger problem at night or in the clouds. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Either way, the procedure is to initially establish a known pitch and power setting while troubleshooting. Should not result in a crash.
    So it’s likely pilot error.

    Is there any truth to the rumor that Asiana Airlines Captain Sum Ting Wong took a job at Lion Air?
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
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    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    So it’s likely pilot error.

    Is there any truth to the rumor that Asiana Airlines Captain Sum Ting Wong took a job at Lion Air?
    Pilot error or air speed indicator error?

    air speed indicator problem on its fatal flight and on three previous journeys,

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Pilot error or air speed indicator error?
    Both.
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  23. #20
    Am I the only one scratching scalp over this line in the OP?

    "As a result of the problem, the captain handed over control of the plane to the first officer, the crew continued their flight and they landed safely at Jakarta."
    Disclaimer: any post made after midnight and before 8AM is made before the coffee dip stick has come up to optomim level - expect some level of silliness,

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  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    That is why the Immediate Action procedure (required memory item) is two know the pitch and power settings for a clean and dirty configuration that will keep the aircraft in the flyable envelope.
    Plenty of crashes caused by pilots being pre-occupied with other problems..
    "I am a bird"

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by opal View Post
    Am I the only one scratching scalp over this line in the OP?

    "As a result of the problem, the captain handed over control of the plane to the first officer, the crew continued their flight and they landed safely at Jakarta."
    There are three separate pitot-static systems. Captain's , First Offier's and a Standby. If one is malfunctioning, the other pilot's system may still be functioning properly. Basically compare all three and decide which two are in agreement if there is some erroneous readings. The Captain could have also switched his display to display the First Officer's instruments.

    "the pitot-static system, which measures ram air pressure and compares it to static pressure to indicate the aircraft's speed through the air. This same static air system also gives us our altitude and tells us how fast we're climbing or descending in feet per minute. The pitot-static system supplies power to three basic aircraft instruments: The airspeed indicator, altimeter, and vertical speed indicator."
    Last edited by Danke; 11-05-2018 at 06:38 PM.
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  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    There are three separate pitot-static systems. Captain's , First Offier's and a Standby. If one is malfunctioning, the other pilot's system may still be functioning properly. Basically compare all three and decide which two are in agreement if there is some erroneous readings. The Captain could have also switched his display to display the First Officer's instruments.

    "the pitot-static system, which measures ram air pressure and compares it to static pressure to indicate the aircraft's speed through the air. This same static air system also gives us our altitude and tells us how fast we're climbing or descending in feet per minute. The pitot-static system supplies power to three basic aircraft instruments: The airspeed indicator, altimeter, and vertical speed indicator."
    How much flying is manual these days? I recently saw that some flights into FNT were diverted to DTW because of fog. It was not foggy on the ground, but apparently it was not possible to see the runway until the planes were fairly low. I would have thought instruments would prevent that, but I'm not a pilot so WTF do I know.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    How much flying is manual these days? I recently saw that some flights into FNT were diverted to DTW because of fog. It was not foggy on the ground, but apparently it was not possible to see the runway until the planes were fairly low. I would have thought instruments would prevent that, but I'm not a pilot so WTF do I know.
    "Manual" or hands flying is usually done up to cruise altitude, sometime people engage the Autopilot before that.

    Most landings are hand flown. If the weather is really bad (low visibility) then an Autoland is required. But the Pilots must be trained, current and qualified in the procedures and the Airport and aircraft equipped for it.
    Last edited by Danke; 11-05-2018 at 08:55 PM.
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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    How much flying is manual these days? I recently saw that some flights into FNT were diverted to DTW because of fog. It was not foggy on the ground, but apparently it was not possible to see the runway until the planes were fairly low. I would have thought instruments would prevent that, but I'm not a pilot so WTF do I know.
    At FNT, the lowest weather can only go down to 200' and 1/2 mile visibility. It is not setup for low visibility Autolands.
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  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    At FNT, the lowest weather can only go down to 200' and 1/2 mile visibility. It is not setup for low visibility Autolands.
    Does not surprise me - it's a relatively small airport.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    There are three separate pitot-static systems. Captain's , First Offier's and a Standby. If one is malfunctioning, the other pilot's system may still be functioning properly. Basically compare all three and decide which two are in agreement if there is some erroneous readings. The Captain could have also switched his display to display the First Officer's instruments.

    "the pitot-static system, which measures ram air pressure and compares it to static pressure to indicate the aircraft's speed through the air. This same static air system also gives us our altitude and tells us how fast we're climbing or descending in feet per minute. The pitot-static system supplies power to three basic aircraft instruments: The airspeed indicator, altimeter, and vertical speed indicator."

    Maybe I should have said, the last 4 words in that sentence confused me




    ....landed safely at Jakarta."
    Disclaimer: any post made after midnight and before 8AM is made before the coffee dip stick has come up to optomim level - expect some level of silliness,

    The problems we face today exist because the people who work for a living are out numbered by those who vote for a living !!!!!!!

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by opal View Post
    Maybe I should have said, the last 4 words in that sentence confused me




    ....landed safely at Jakarta."

    I don't follow? say again.
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  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by opal View Post
    Maybe I should have said, the last 4 words in that sentence confused me




    ....landed safely at Jakarta."
    That was a previous flight. The plane had problems on the previous flights, but they didn’t crash the plane.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    That was a previous flight. The plane had problems on the previous flights, but they didn’t crash the plane.
    Yep, the penultimate flight.
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