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Thread: US mulls revoking recognition of transgender people

  1. #1

    Thumbs up US mulls revoking recognition of transgender people

    The administration of US President Donald Trump is considering a proposal to narrowly define gender as a biological, immutable condition determined by birth genitalia, The New York Times reported on Sunday.According to a memo obtained by The Times, the Department of Health and Human Services is leading the effort to establish a legal definition of sex under federal civil rights law that bans gender discrimination in government-funded education programs.
    It is the latest effort by President Donald Trump's administration to chip away at protections for the LGBTQ community.
    The department's proposed definition of gender would define sex as either male or female, unchangeable, and determined by the genitals that a person is born with, according to a draft reviewed by The Times.
    "Sex means a person's status as male or female based on immutable biological traits identifiable by or before birth," the department proposed in the memo, which was drafted and has been circulating since last spring, The Times said.
    "The sex listed on a person's birth certificate, as originally issued, shall constitute definitive proof of a person's sex unless rebutted by reliable genetic evidence."
    Health and Human Services has called on its own department, as well as Education, Justice and Labor, to adopt its definition in regulations that will establish uniformity in the government and increase the chance that courts will accept it, The Times said.

    More at: https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-mulls-...175905194.html
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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The administration of US President Donald Trump is considering a proposal to narrowly define gender as a biological, immutable condition determined by birth genitalia, The New York Times reported on Sunday.According to a memo obtained by The Times, the Department of Health and Human Services is leading the effort to establish a legal definition of sex under federal civil rights law that bans gender discrimination in government-funded education programs.
    It is the latest effort by President Donald Trump's administration to chip away at protections for the LGBTQ community.
    The department's proposed definition of gender would define sex as either male or female, unchangeable, and determined by the genitals that a person is born with, according to a draft reviewed by The Times.
    "Sex means a person's status as male or female based on immutable biological traits identifiable by or before birth," the department proposed in the memo, which was drafted and has been circulating since last spring, The Times said.
    "The sex listed on a person's birth certificate, as originally issued, shall constitute definitive proof of a person's sex unless rebutted by reliable genetic evidence."
    Health and Human Services has called on its own department, as well as Education, Justice and Labor, to adopt its definition in regulations that will establish uniformity in the government and increase the chance that courts will accept it, The Times said.

    More at: https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-mulls-...175905194.html

    FACTS ARE ACTS OF VIOLENCE!!!
    FACTS ARE ACTS OF VIOLENCE!!!
    FACTS ARE ACTS OF VIOLENCE!!!
    FACTS ARE ACTS OF VIOLENCE!!!
    FACTS ARE ACTS OF VIOLENCE!!!

  4. #3
    This is bit unsettling.

    President-Elect Trump Says Same-Sex Marriage Is 'Settled' Law
    abcnews
    Nov 13, 2016 - Republican President-elect Donald Trump said he's “fine” with same-sex marriage as the law of the land, calling the issue “settled” by the ...

    Why un-settle settled things just 15 days before midterms? Much of GOP Christian base has already made up its mind.


    US mulls revoking recognition of transgender people
    Even if they have been serving in military and are educated?






    If so, does that mean transgender would have even fewer rights than DACA?

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    This is bit unsettling.

    President-Elect Trump Says Same-Sex Marriage Is 'Settled' Law
    abcnews
    Nov 13, 2016 - Republican President-elect Donald Trump said he's “fine” with same-sex marriage as the law of the land, calling the issue “settled” by the ...

    Why un-settle settled things just 15 days before midterms? Much of GOP Christian base has already made up its mind.
    He says many things and you are deliberately muddling two different issues.




    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    Even if they have been serving in military and are educated?






    If so, does that mean transgender would have even fewer rights than DACA?
    Again you deliberately mix two separate issues.

    Are you Trans?
    If not why do you hate science?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

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    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

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    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
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  6. #5
    Tell that to GOP's Christian base that LGBT issues are different issues.

    He says many things and you are deliberately muddling two different issues.

    This is a thread about "mudder in chief" who says many things on every topic, so just reproducing his various statements even on a single issue would be an act of mudding. So you got little weight in your argument.

    Are you part of Jarvankaites?

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    Tell that to GOP's Christian base that LGBT issues are different issues.
    Neither you nor I are as simplistic as that and since when is DACA LGBTQWXYZ?




    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    This is a thread about "mudder in chief" who says many things on every topic, so just reproducing his various statements even on a single issue would be an act of mudding. So you got little weight in your argument.
    He isn't muddling these issues, you are.


    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    Are you part of Jarvankaites?
    Absolutely not.

    Why are you shilling for transanity?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #7
    I'm just shedding light on conflicting, opportunistic stances by mudder-in-chief two weeks before election that in the end could be completely meaningless and just pre-election redmeat tasters for GOP Christian base (if any of them still find him honest and trustworthy).

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    I'm just shedding light on conflicting, opportunistic stances by mudder-in-chief two weeks before election that in the end could be completely meaningless and just pre-election redmeat tasters for GOP Christian base (if any of them still find him honest and trustworthy).
    They aren't conflicting and if you think they aren't sincere then say so without muddling.

    And this isn't just talk, this is an actual change of policy back towards sanity so it makes much less difference whether it is election season red meat or not.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The administration of US President Donald Trump is considering a proposal to narrowly define gender as a biological, immutable condition determined by birth genitalia,
    More at: https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-mulls-...175905194.html
    Sounds like a sane position to me.
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  13. #11
    Same sex marriage is not the same as identifying as a different gender.

    Good call on Trump. Hope he follows thru. Too many complications with current direction.

    The state might back a person that wants to identify as a different gender but what happens when that person is convicted of a crime? They let males compete against females because they identify as a female. Would a judge sentence a convicted felon male that identifies as a female to years in the female penitentiary? This could redefine the definition of hard labor. Maybe we will see serial killers appearing in court and demanding that he be referred to as she in all proceedings.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post

    If so, does that mean transgender would have even fewer rights than DACA?
    Transgenders will have the same rights as everybody else which is what equal protection under the law really means. That includes the right to be delusional if you so desire, but it certainly doesn't include the right to force everyone else to live according to your delusion.
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  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Neither you nor I are as simplistic as that and since when is DACA LGBTQWXYZ?





    He isn't muddling these issues, you are.



    Absolutely not.

    Why are you shilling for transanity?
    Look you don't have to agree @enhanced_deficit but calling him a shill is going waaaay overboard.

    Having some decent dialog with people that are expressing different POV's goes a lot farther than insults & name-calling.
    There is no spoon.

  16. #14
    Meh. Gender identity disorder is just that, a disorder. We treat bipolar disorder by treating the brain. Same with obsessive compulsive disorder or any other disorder except GID. That said....if a man has not only through the hormone treatment and had "gender reassignment surgery" and got busted, would he really belong in a men's prison? (I guess Chelsae Manning is still in a male prison....which makes no sense to me.) On the flipside, the Charlotte NC/Obama position that "People should be able to be whatever gender it is they think they are at the moment" makes no sense to me either. So....a man is going to prison for rape....can he say "I feel like a woman now so send to a woman's prison! It's my right!" Of course not! The so called "metoo" movement would have a cow if Bill Cosby got sent to a women's prison, penis intact. (Though I guess he can't see now so it doesn't matter.) And the NC bill that the left freaked out on, which said people had to use the bathroom based on their birth certificate, really didn't affect transgenders, because most states, including North Carolina, allow transgenders to change their birth certificates! (That's probably why Trump used the specific language of "genitalia at birth" rather than "birth certificate"). And, of course, there are people who are actually born with both sets of genitalia. Rare....but it happens.

    As far as Trump being all over the map....this belongs here.



    Oh, and at 3:45 in this video, Paul Joseph Watson lies worse than Rachel Madcow ever did. The preacher that was on the stage with Ted Cruz made it clear in that video that he was not calling for the execution of gays, but that the Old Testament did, along with adulterers and other people who had committed certain sins. He went on to say that he was calling for repentance, not execution. But that's a side note.
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    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
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    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  17. #15
    The administration of US President Donald Trump is considering a proposal to narrowly define gender as a biological, immutable condition determined by birth genitalia, The New York Times reported on Sunday.According to a memo obtained by The Times, the Department of Health and Human Services is leading the effort to establish a legal definition of sex under federal civil rights law that bans gender discrimination in government-funded education programs.
    Sane, rational and logical.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Meh. Gender identity disorder is just that, a disorder. We treat bipolar disorder by treating the brain. Same with obsessive compulsive disorder or any other disorder except GID. That said....if a man has not only through the hormone treatment and had "gender reassignment surgery" and got busted, would he really belong in a men's prison? (I guess Chelsae Manning is still in a male prison....which makes no sense to me.) On the flipside, the Charlotte NC/Obama position that "People should be able to be whatever gender it is they think they are at the moment" makes no sense to me either. So....a man is going to prison for rape....can he say "I feel like a woman now so send to a woman's prison! It's my right!" Of course not! The so called "metoo" movement would have a cow if Bill Cosby got sent to a women's prison, penis intact. (Though I guess he can't see now so it doesn't matter.) And the NC bill that the left freaked out on, which said people had to use the bathroom based on their birth certificate, really didn't affect transgenders, because most states, including North Carolina, allow transgenders to change their birth certificates! (That's probably why Trump used the specific language of "genitalia at birth" rather than "birth certificate"). And, of course, there are people who are actually born with both sets of genitalia. Rare....but it happens.

    As far as Trump being all over the map....this belongs here.



    Oh, and at 3:45 in this video, Paul Joseph Watson lies worse than Rachel Madcow ever did. The preacher that was on the stage with Ted Cruz made it clear in that video that he was not calling for the execution of gays, but that the Old Testament did, along with adulterers and other people who had committed certain sins. He went on to say that he was calling for repentance, not execution. But that's a side note.
    She was sentenced to serve a 35-year sentence at the maximum-security U.S. Disciplinary Barracks at Fort Leavenworth.[20][21] On January 17, 2017, President Barack Obama commuted Manning's sentence to nearly seven years of confinement dating from her arrest on May 27, 2010.[22][23] Manning now earns a living through speaking engagements.[24]
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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    [FONT="]She was sentenced to serve a 35-year sentence at the maximum-security [/FONT]U.S. Disciplinary Barracks[FONT="] at Fort Leavenworth.[/FONT][20][21][FONT="] On January 17, 2017, President [/FONT]Barack Obama commuted[FONT="] Manning's sentence to nearly seven years of confinement dating from her arrest on May 27, 2010.[/FONT][22][23][FONT="] Manning now earns a living through speaking engagements.[/FONT][24]
    Thank you for the update. I will chalk that up to one of the things Obama did that I actually agreed with. I am still curious as to if she was ever put in a female prison but I guess if she was in solitary confinement that doesn't matter anyway.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  21. #18
    why should the government be involved in gender identification?
    “…let us teach them that all who draw breath are of equal worth, and that those who seek to press heel upon the throat of liberty, will fall to the cry of FREEDOM!!!” – Spartacus, War of the Damned

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  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Look you don't have to agree @enhanced_deficit but calling him a shill is going waaaay overboard.

    Having some decent dialog with people that are expressing different POV's goes a lot farther than insults & name-calling.
    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck I am going to call it a duck.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by kpitcher View Post
    why should the government be involved in gender identification?
    Because it has to do things like decide which prison to send a convict to.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #21
    Which gender will be assigned to those with abnormal genetics?
    "The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety."
    H. L. Mencken


    I don't hate you. You're just some person on the internet who believes in things that aren't real.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Which gender will be assigned to those with abnormal genetics?
    Do they have a Y chromosome?

    Whatever you think about those with abnormal genetics they can be an exception maybe, this is the main rule.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Do they have a Y chromosome?
    Yes, in half of the cells of their body. In the other half, no.
    "The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety."
    H. L. Mencken


    I don't hate you. You're just some person on the internet who believes in things that aren't real.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Yes, in half of the cells of their body. In the other half, no.
    Link?

    Whatever you think about those with abnormal genetics they can be an exception maybe, this is the main rule.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Link?
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post6697003


    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Whatever you think about those with abnormal genetics they can be an exception maybe, this is the main rule.
    Genetic testing on such a person would yield only the results found in that part of the body. If they had all of one kind of cell in their mouth, but another in their genitals, they could, for example, genetically test as female but have a fully functioning penis and testes. Or give birth to or father a child which a paternity or maternity test would say is not their child.

    Such a rule would say, based on mouth swab, that the person is female despite having a penis. Or male. Or whatever.


    And then the state cuts off the one-year-old boy's dick and removes his testicles because the doctor guessed wrong.
    "The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety."
    H. L. Mencken


    I don't hate you. You're just some person on the internet who believes in things that aren't real.

  30. #26
    That isn't a link to documentation of the condition you describe.



    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Genetic testing on such a person would yield only the results found in that part of the body. If they had all of one kind of cell in their mouth, but another in their genitals, they could, for example, genetically test as female but have a fully functioning penis and testes. Or give birth to or father a child which a paternity or maternity test would say is not their child.

    Such a rule would say, based on mouth swab, that the person is female despite having a penis. Or male. Or whatever.


    And then the state cuts off the one-year-old boy's dick and removes his testicles because the doctor guessed wrong.
    Such exceptions don't change the main rule, they can be dealt with as exceptions.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That isn't a link to documentation of the condition you describe.
    Correct.


    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Such exceptions don't change the main rule, they can be dealt with as exceptions.
    Most of those exceptions will never be dealt with as exceptions because no one would think to test their DNA from multiple parts of their body.

    And because, if this becomes federal law, transgendered people will just continue to be transgendered without involving the federal government.
    "The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety."
    H. L. Mencken


    I don't hate you. You're just some person on the internet who believes in things that aren't real.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Correct.
    So you can't document the existence of the condition you claim exists?


    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Most of those exceptions will never be dealt with as exceptions because no one would think to test their DNA from multiple parts of their body.
    If they only have one set of genitalia then what will be the problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    And because, if this becomes federal law, transgendered people will just continue to be transgendered without involving the federal government.
    So?
    The government has to treat them as what they really are when it interacts with them in ways that gender makes a difference, Trump isn't trying to outlaw their insanity.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    So you can't document the existence of the condition you claim exists?
    I can, but I wanted to see if you'd address the underlying issue rather than diving down a rabbit hole of detail to avoid discussion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If they only have one set of genitalia then what will be the problem?
    For extremely obvious reasons, whoever is reporting the birth is just working off of the outward appearance of the baby's genitals. This definition presumes that it is impossible for the reporter to be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    So?
    The government has to treat them as what they really are when it interacts with them in ways that gender makes a difference, Trump isn't trying to outlaw their insanity.
    The reason that people get all wrapped around the axle with the transgender topic has nothing to do with government.
    "The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety."
    H. L. Mencken


    I don't hate you. You're just some person on the internet who believes in things that aren't real.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    I can, but I wanted to see if you'd address the underlying issue rather than diving down a rabbit hole of detail to avoid discussion.
    Link?
    You are the one diving down a rabbit hole of detail to avoid discussion.




    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    For extremely obvious reasons, whoever is reporting the birth is just working off of the outward appearance of the baby's genitals. This definition presumes that it is impossible for the reporter to be wrong.
    No it doesn't.



    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    The reason that people get all wrapped around the axle with the transgender topic has nothing to do with government.
    Yes it does, nobody cared much compared to many other more important issues until government got involved pushing insanity as reality, Trump is just setting things back where they belong and always used to be.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

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    Last Post: 03-10-2008, 11:28 AM

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