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Thread: Trump threatens to seal U.S.-Mexico border over migrant caravan. Can he do it?

  1. #1

    Trump threatens to seal U.S.-Mexico border over migrant caravan. Can he do it?

    https://www.usatoday.com/news/

    Election posturing.

    In a series of tweets fired off Thursday morning, President Donald Trump delivered his most extreme threat yet to the governments of Mexico and Central America: “If they don’t stop a caravan of Hondurans trying to reach the U.S. to apply for asylum, he vowed to use the U.S. military to "CLOSE THE SOUTHERN BORDER!"

    It’s unclear whether Trump is seriously considering a complete closure of the 2,000-mile border with Mexico, or if he’s using the threat simply to get America’s southern neighbors to cooperate, or that he’s just trying to rally his political base less than three weeks before the midterm elections.

    But if sealing the border is realistically on the table, then that raises countless questions over the authority of the president to do so, the logistics of such an endeavor, and the widespread consequences it would have on Americans’ ability to trade, travel and even eat.

    "A shutdown of the border, even for a temporary period of time, would have dramatic and devastating economic consequences," said Peter Boogaard, a former Homeland Security official in the Obama administration now working for FWD.us, an immigration advocacy group.

    The first question, whether Trump can close the border, is a simple one to answer: yes.

    "You can certainly stop entries coming across the border, whether its truck traffic or cars or pedestrians," said Gil Kerlikowske, former commissioner of U.S. Customs and Border Protection. "Logistically, that's possible. The gates are closed, and you say, 'Right now we're not taking entry.'"

    Previous examples are rare. President George W. Bush partially closed the southern border following the 9-11 terrorist attacks, requiring full inspections of every incoming pedestrian and vehicle that led to days-long waits. President Ronald Reagan temporarily closed ports of entry along the southern border in 1985 following the kidnapping and murder of a DEA agent in Mexico.

    The situation gets more complicated if Trump is contemplating using active-duty members of the military to help seal off the massive sections between those ports of entry, a 2,000-mile stretch from Brownsville, Texas, to San Diego, Calif.

    The National Guard can definitely be deployed inside the U.S. Several presidents have done so, mobilizing those to assist along the southern border, respond to natural disasters, and help in the war on drugs. Trump has already done the same, issuing an order in April that sent 2,100 National Guard troops to help stop what Trump describes as a “crisis” level of illegal immigration.

    But it's less clear if a president can order active-duty members of the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines to patrol the southern border.

    The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 bars active duty military troops from performing domestic law enforcement functions. Legal and military experts have long cited that law as a barrier to domestic deployments of the military.

    "The Department of Defense really doesn’t like to use the military in this law enforcement role. It blurs the line," said Christine Wormuth, a former undersecretary at the Defense Department and now director of the International Security and Defense Policy Center at the Rand Corporation. "The United States public doesn’t want the military to be policemen."
    The U.S. State Department estimates that $1.7 billion in goods and services, and hundreds of thousands of people, legally cross the border each day. The U.S. gets nearly half (44 percent) of its fresh fruits and vegetables from Mexico, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture.



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  3. #2
    Article IV

    Section 4

    The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion;

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    https://www.usatoday.com/news/

    The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 bars active duty military troops from performing domestic law enforcement functions.
    But protecting the border isn't domestic law enforcement, the border isn't "domestic" it is the threshold where "foreign" begins.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    But protecting the border isn't domestic law enforcement, the border isn't "domestic" it is the threshold where "foreign" begins.
    Stopping people from crossing the border is a law enforcement action. The Border Patrol has been assisting at the border but is not allowed to participate in any apprehensions of people coming across.

    https://www.stripes.com/news/guard-t...lines-1.537171

    This joint Guard-Border Patrol mission, known as Operation Guardian Support, keeps soldiers back from the border and in stations where they perform tasks such as vehicle maintenance, administrative duties, monitoring of surveillance data collected through cameras and sensors along the border, and clearing vegetation to improve sightlines in the field.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 10-18-2018 at 06:01 PM.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Stopping people from crossing the border is a law enforcement action. The Border Patrol has been assisting at the border but is not allowed to participate in any apprehensions of people coming across.

    https://www.stripes.com/news/guard-t...lines-1.537171
    It isn't "domestic".

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It isn't "domestic".
    Within our borders is "domestic". Outside our borders is "foreign." Unless they go across into Mexico, they are "domestic."

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Within our borders is "domestic". Outside our borders is "foreign." Unless they go across into Mexico, they are "domestic."
    On the border isn't domestic.

  9. #8
    Protect against foreign invasion. I'd say a horde of Central Americans crossing the border illegally qualifies. Polls show USAmericans agree.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    On the border isn't domestic.
    One millimeter on this side of it is. One millimeter on the other side of it is "foreign". Are you going to argue about the width of the border line?

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    One millimeter on this side of it is. One millimeter on the other side of it is "foreign". Are you going to argue about the width of the border line?

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    One millimeter on this side of it is. One millimeter on the other side of it is "foreign". Are you going to argue about the width of the border line?
    Are you?

  14. #12
    Top Rated Influencer Danke's Avatar


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    Posse Comitatus Act Repealed.

    On December 31, 2011, President Obama signed the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), codifying indefinite military detention without charge or trial into law for the first time in American history. (To learn more about the NDAA, visit
    www.aclu.org/NDAA).

  15. #13
    @Zippyjuan

    What if he deploys the troops on the Mexican side of the border?

    What are they going to do about it?

  16. #14
    As much as the idea of closing the border sends a thrill up the legs of the Trumpenproletariat, they'd find the reality much less appealing.

    It won't happen, just talk for election time.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    @Zippyjuan

    What if he deploys the troops on the Mexican side of the border?

    What are they going to do about it?
    That WOULD be an invasion- of Mexico.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    That WOULD be an invasion- of Mexico.
    To stop an invasion FROM Mexico.

    What are they going to do about it?
    What's to stop him? We invade places like Syria with much less justification.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    To stop an invasion FROM Mexico.

    What are they going to do about it?
    What's to stop him? We invade places like Syria with much less justification.
    The "caravan" migrants aren't even in Mexico yet.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The "caravan" migrants aren't even in Mexico yet.
    The invasion has been going on for decades and this "caravan" will be in Mexico soon enough if they aren't stopped first, there will be plenty of time to deploy the troops across the border before they get here.

  22. #19
    Shades of REX 84 arising again. For those that don't know, the premise of REX 84 was that martial law/suspension of the Constitution needed to be declared (though we've legally been under martial law/military rule since the Civil War but whatever) after a mass of immigrants tries to cross the border and the response gets bloody.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    But now you can't talk to people because of "social distancing"....brought to you by shills and politicians.

  23. #20
    Top Rated Influencer Danke's Avatar


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    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    Shades of REX 84 arising again. For those that don't know, the premise of REX 84 was that martial law/suspension of the Constitution needed to be declared (though we've legally been under martial law/military rule since the Civil War but whatever) after a mass of immigrants tries to cross the border and the response gets bloody.

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?c44559...ernment-secret


    Short version:


  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Stopping people from crossing the border is a law enforcement action. The Border Patrol has been assisting at the border but is not allowed to participate in any apprehensions of people coming across.

    https://www.stripes.com/news/guard-t...lines-1.537171
    No it is not.

    This is an invasion, organized by enemies of the United States, politically motivated to carry out a political and military objective.

    It is an act of war.

    So, by all means, he has the authority:

    Article II

    Section 2

    The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States

    Article IV

    Section 4

    The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 10-18-2018 at 07:13 PM.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    The "caravan" migrants aren't even in Mexico yet.
    All the better reason to marshal whatever resources are needed, including the unorganized militia, into place, now.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    And North just happens to be head of the NRA now.....

    Speaking of which, it's impossible to find the leadership and board of directors information of the NRA on their website. That info is always very easy to find on non-profits and corporations websites. Even highly controversial orgs like Planned Parenthood has that info on the website. Seems NRA is hiding theirs.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    But now you can't talk to people because of "social distancing"....brought to you by shills and politicians.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    Shades of REX 84 arising again. For those that don't know, the premise of REX 84 was that martial law/suspension of the Constitution needed to be declared (though we've legally been under martial law/military rule since the Civil War but whatever) after a mass of immigrants tries to cross the border and the response gets bloody.
    What course of action would you recommend?
    Let the invasion happen and allow us to turn into a communist banana republic?



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    What course of action would you recommend?
    Let the invasion happen and allow us to turn into a communist banana republic?
    That's one of the things that I have had to re-evaluate my thinking on.

    I've been subjected to all manner of doom porn over the last 35 years of political "activism", very little of which has turned out to be true in the long run.

    Tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of potential invaders, organized by mushy headed and totalitarian one worlders, are a very real threat in a Camp of the Saints way.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    That's one of the things that I have had to re-evaluate my thinking on.

    I've been subjected to all manner of doom porn over the last 35 years of political "activism", very little of which has turned out to be true in the long run.

    Tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of potential invaders, organized by mushy headed and totalitarian one worlders, are a very real threat in a Camp of the Saints way.
    I'd rather live in the US as it is without ever improving it than live in Venezuela and be a hated minority.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    What course of action would you recommend?
    Let the invasion happen and allow us to turn into a communist banana republic?
    There's so much factually wrong with the premise of the question that we have to clear up the misinformation first.

    First, since apparently you don't realize that we have been a soft communist country since FDR's New Deal that tells me your awareness is lacking. Do you think Social Security, Medicare, EBT and similar programs are the hallmarks of non-communist countries? Pooling of resources for redistribution has been ongoing for a long time. Second, real communist activists aren't fans of the Democratic Party either and view it as barely different than the GOP since the real beneficiaries of the soft communist system we've had for a long time are corporations. Serious communists (not hipsters tossing around MSNBC inspired buzzwords or immigrants seeking "a better life") abhor corporations.

    The invasion has already occurred, thanks to those same corporations that wanted cheap labor and the bankers that wanted fresh new debt slaves to keep the ponzi going. Worrying about a few thousand more, especially at the risk of what may come next is most certainly closing the barn door after the horse is long, long gone. What REX 84 shows is that such excuses have been meticulously planned for use at a particular time for a particular desired result, not unlike how 9/11 was.

    So, we could try something different and direct the anger and opposition directly where it rests instead of being easily manipulated dupes, attacking people that are as manipulated into desired actions as the average person is. Or we could do what you apparently want and attack a bunch of brown people with 85 IQs instead. That sounds much more productive...
    Last edited by devil21; 10-18-2018 at 08:05 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    But now you can't talk to people because of "social distancing"....brought to you by shills and politicians.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    There's so much factually wrong with the premise of the question that we have to clear up the misinformation first.

    First, since apparently you don't realize that we have been a soft communist country since FDR's New Deal that tells me your awareness is lacking. Do you think Social Security, Medicare, EBT and similar programs are the hallmarks of non-communist countries? Pooling of resources for redistribution has been ongoing for a long time. Second, real communist activists aren't fans of the Democratic Party either and view it as barely different than the GOP since the real beneficiaries of the soft communist system we've had for a long time are corporations. Serious communists (not hipsters tossing around MSNBC inspired buzzwords or immigrants seeking "a better life") abhor corporations.

    The invasion has already occurred, thanks to those same corporations that wanted cheap labor and the bankers that wanted fresh new debt slaves to keep the ponzi going. Worrying about a few thousand more, especially at the risk of what may come next is most certainly closing the barn door after the horse is long, long gone. What REX 84 shows is that such excuses have been meticulously planned for use at a particular time for a particular desired result, not unlike how 9/11 was.

    So, we could try something different and direct the anger and opposition directly where it rests instead of being easily manipulated dupes, attacking people that are as manipulated into desired actions as the average person is. Or we could do what you apparently want and attack a bunch of brown people with 85 IQs instead. That sounds much more productive...
    Every step we have taken towards communism has been under the banner of the Demoncrat party or their RINO collaborators with their full support and we may have some communism now but it could get much worse.

    The invasion has been ongoing for decades but the invaders haven't taken over yet, we need to stop it now before they do.

    I didn't call for attacking anyone, I called for defending our border.

    The oligarchs would have a guaranteed win if we just let the invasion continue but we might be able to stop their other plans in addition to securing the border.

    So I repeat the question.

    WHAT COURSE OF ACTION DO YOU RECOMMEND?

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Every step we have taken towards communism has been under the banner of the Demoncrat party or their RINO collaborators with their full support and we may have some communism now but it could get much worse.
    And the fascist corporation portion has been enacted by the subsequent Republican administrations. Dems pass the soft communism component, then the GOP passes the soft fascism component. The end result is communism that primarily benefits corporations, with the people receiving crumbs from the table. The only way it could get worse is when the REX 84 camps are operational (by some measures they already are), gun control clamps down (seize the guns first, then due process...hmm, who said that??), the money loses value (ongoing), and the required communist police surveillance state is fully implemented (ongoing and supported by the guy that wants the guns). Aren't we already close? Thank God the GOP is in power to stop all of that. Oh wait....

    The invasion has been ongoing for decades but the invaders haven't taken over yet, we need to stop it now before they do.
    You go first. Be sure to post pics of the first immigrant you dispatch. Oh you meant having someone else do it, didn't you?

    I didn't call for attacking anyone, I called for defending our border.
    You just did. How else do you propose we defend the border from invaders?

    The oligarchs would have a guaranteed win if we just let the invasion continue but we might be able to stop their other plans in addition to securing the border.
    Again, who is "we"? I await the pics of the first action you take to stem the flow. Lead by example.

    So I repeat the question.

    WHAT COURSE OF ACTION DO YOU RECOMMEND?
    I already answered that. Direct the opposition where the root of the issue springs from.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

    Israel, under control of the Crown and, ultimately, the Vatican, own the USA. If you don't know this by now....

    Talk to people about liberty. You won't find it on websites, you won't find it in politicians.

    But now you can't talk to people because of "social distancing"....brought to you by shills and politicians.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    And the fascist corporation portion has been enacted by the subsequent Republican administrations. Dems pass the soft communism component, then the GOP passes the soft fascism component. The end result is communism that primarily benefits corporations, with the people receiving crumbs from the table. The only way it could get worse is when the REX 84 camps are operational (by some measures they already are), gun control clamps down (seize the guns first, then due process...hmm, who said that??), the money loses value (ongoing), and the required communist police surveillance state is fully implemented (ongoing and supported by the guy that wants the guns). Aren't we already close? Thank God the GOP is in power to stop all of that. Oh wait....
    I'm sorry but things could get much worse if we just let the invasion continue, we can stop the things you are worried about but we must also stop the invasion.



    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    You go first. Be sure to post pics of the first immigrant you dispatch. Oh you meant having someone else do it, didn't you?




    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    You just did. How else do you propose we defend the border from invaders?
    Defense =/= attack but I should have expected that kind of intellectual dishonesty from you.



    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    Again, who is "we"? I await the pics of the first action you take to stem the flow.




    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    I already answered that. Direct the opposition where the root of the issue springs from.
    No you didn't, name something specific instead of vague generalities.

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