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Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
It's not duplication unless you're claiming that individuals don't need to own guns to defend themselves when a state exists.
The existence of private security alongside (and ultimately under the authority of) the state is not competition in government.you know the problems with AnCap competition in government as well as I do.
You say self-defense justifies robbing your neighbors to finance state level security.
I say, how does this not justify robbing your neighbors for neighborhood watch level security.
It is duplication of the collective defense function, if you want the collective defense function to include giving each individual a gun then you must use the existing state and give everyone a gun, your proposal appoints yourself a "policeman" who is armed at your neighbor's expense without giving him a gun at your expense, that is clearly duplication of the existing state.
It isn't private if it is collective, it is only private if you pay for it or if you get willing donors.
If the existing state pays for it then it becomes a question of how much security is justified on a collective basis, is it justifiable to tax and spend foe a patrolman in every neighborhood?
If the existing state isn't paying for it then it is unjustified duplication of the state.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
So I'm a Nazi Commie Fascist because I'd support Trump's prison reforms and tariffs but sticking a government gun in my face and extorting money out of me to bribe some third world $#@!hole into not chopping each other up with machetes is not wrong.
You anarcho-globalists are as $#@!ing nuts as the Jacobin Bolsheviks currently running amok.
And I'm an enemy of freedom...
Get the $#@! outta here...
Last edited by Anti Federalist; 10-14-2018 at 12:07 AM.
It is a collective defense function, not a duplication of the state's.
By private I simply meant not part of the state, not that it was a product of voluntary interaction.It isn't private if it is collective, it is only private if you pay for it or if you get willing donors.
...
Anyway, I'm going to call it a night (to be continued).
I'll close with a summary of where things stand:
You reject individual-liberty-promoting foreign interventions because:
(a) you say foreign intervention violates "national rights" (a concept not recognized in libertarianism)
and (b) you claim that intervention is only just in "self-defense" (basically a social contract theory, little connection to self-defense)
In short, as I've been saying, your position on intervention is based in nationalist ideas, not libertarianism.
Any additional collective defense function is unjustified duplication of the current state, there can be only one.
But it is part of a competing state, it isn't private unless it's voluntary.
It is based on libertarianism and nationalism, the two go together.
Class will continue another day then.
You are lucky you that there aren't any grades in History & Moral Philosophy.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Yes, stop all foreign aid. Also, it sucks looking through 3 pages of posts to see the same BS from sword and rev3 clogging up and hiding the great posts by real liberty seekers, such as azjoe and enhanced deficit in this thread. It’s almost like the same few seem to obfuscate a potential good thread by injecting their back and forth $#@!, while not recognizing liberty if it bit them in the ass.
Taxation is theft, taxation of labor is slavery. What percentage of your labor would they have to tax before you realized you were a slave? I would say 100% for most around here, because services and “returns” yo. Meanwhile, .....
Great Ron Paul video azjoe.
EM.
Apparently taxation required for such blow-back generating foreign aid does not impact everyone while the swamp milks the working classes to send taxpayers monies to foreign puppet regimes.
Jared Kushner 'paid nothing in federal income taxes for years' despite having a net worth of $324M and earning millions a year developing real estate
13 October 2018
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...xes-years.html
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Violating nations rights for the rights of individuals is historically fraught with massive unintended consequences.
But sometimes when you don't intervene Rwanda happens. Although that was pretty much all consequence from earlier interventions.
Comes down to how much do you think you know, and if you know so much why do we even need prices?
In New Zealand:
The Coastguard is a Charity
Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
The DMV is a private non-profit
Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
A tax return has 4 fields
Business licenses aren't a thing
Prostitution is legal
We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care
Surely the geopolitical market is more complex than a small neighborhood economy that is itself to complex to manage efficiently without price information?
Trying to reduce geopolitical situations down to single factors, and also believing that manipulating that factor will yield a predictable result without even quality information from each actor of the sort prices create seems a tad fool hardy.
In New Zealand:
The Coastguard is a Charity
Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
The DMV is a private non-profit
Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
A tax return has 4 fields
Business licenses aren't a thing
Prostitution is legal
We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care
It's not that the "geopolitical market" is complex, it's that there is no such thing.
One person shooting another person is not a market transaction. There is no "price."
I appreciate the analogy you're trying to make but, again, it doesn't make sense.
Just because foreign intervention and economic intervention both have the word "intervention" in them doesn't mean they're analogues.
In New Zealand:
The Coastguard is a Charity
Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
The DMV is a private non-profit
Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
A tax return has 4 fields
Business licenses aren't a thing
Prostitution is legal
We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care
Smith and Jones exchanging 1 apple for 2 oranges involves human action; from this emerges a price (of apples in oranges, & vice versa).
Smith shoots Jones in the face. Where's the price? What would "price" even mean in this context?
Praxeology (the science of human action) is broader than economics.
Every social phenomenon can be analyzed in terms of human action; not every social phenomenon can be analyzed economically.
It simply makes no sense to talk about "prices" outside voluntary exchange.
Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 10-15-2018 at 09:35 PM.
We are analyzing it morally here, and foreign aid is a really mixed bag so it should be approached with caution.
Prices are a form of a lot of information. In fields without prices but still involving human choice, like how will all these people respond to an injection of foreign capital, the information must surely be thinner on the ground.
In New Zealand:
The Coastguard is a Charity
Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
The DMV is a private non-profit
Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
A tax return has 4 fields
Business licenses aren't a thing
Prostitution is legal
We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care
Suppose there's a civil war between socialists and libertarians in Region X.
State Y is considering military action on the side of the libertarians.
It does a cost-benefit analysis and finds that intervention would indeed be a net gain for liberty.
If you object to this on the sort-of-Hayekian ground that State Y can't have the knowledge required to make the decision, doesn't that same criticism also apply to either of the factions in the civil war? It does. Everyone in the (geo)political arena is in the same position. There's no market containing distributed information to which we can defer. There's no option to "let the market decide." If you say to one side of a fight "let the market decide," what you're really saying is "let the other side win."
Sure would solve alot of problems, now wouldn't it?
Don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows
According to an-caps the socialists would lose. Unless there is already intervention on the side of the socialists by another state? If the socialists are being supported then being against intervention would stop that support.
If the an-caps can't win an a stateless civil war then what is the point of their theory?
Also what happens when they defeat the tankies with your historically unprecedented covert support and then turn around and fly planes into buildings?
Last edited by idiom; 10-16-2018 at 06:26 PM.
In New Zealand:
The Coastguard is a Charity
Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
The DMV is a private non-profit
Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
A tax return has 4 fields
Business licenses aren't a thing
Prostitution is legal
We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care
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Dangerous conspiracy theories on Right claim MAGA fake frontgroup
Poll: Should US apologize for financing radicalization of Afghan children in 80s?
Obama-Clinton Years: A Violent Chapter in World History
Trump: If (Neocon) Adelson Backs Rubio "He'll Have Total Control" Over Him
Delta variant, death of 9 Chinese engineers in terror attack led to airport chaos & quick Kabul fall?
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