View Poll Results: Would you support ending all US foreign aid immediately?

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Thread: Would you support ending all US foreign aid immediately?

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Why only when there's no state?
    Because if there is already a state then it is already serving the collective defense and you don't have a justification for forming one unless it is failing to do its job.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Because if there is already a state then it is already serving the collective defense and you don't have a justification for forming one unless it is failing to do its job.
    So, if a state exists, people don't need guns for self-defense?


  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    So, if a state exists, people don't need guns for self-defense?

    I didn't say that, I said if a state exists the collective self defense function is already in place and any further defense must take place individually with your own resources.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I didn't say that, I said if a state exists the collective self defense function is already in place and any further defense must take place individually with your own resources.
    I didn't say anything about collective defense. I'm talking about self-defense.

    You need a gun to defend yourself because, even with a state, there's crime.

    So, why can't you rob your neighbor to buy one?



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I didn't say anything about collective defense. I'm talking about self-defense.

    You need a gun to defend yourself because, even with a state, there's crime.

    So, why can't you rob your neighbor to buy one?
    Because using your neighbors resources is collective if you defend him too and the state already fills the collective defense role and it is outright theft if you don't defend him.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Because using your neighbors resources is collective if you defend him too and the state already fills the collective defense role and it is outright theft if you don't defend him.
    Okay, suppose you do defend him (he, like you, still needs some degree of defense despite the existence of the state).

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Okay, suppose you do defend him (he, like you, still needs some degree of defense despite the existence of the state).
    The state is already filling the collective defense role and you don't have a justification to duplicate it, you know the problems with AnCap competition in government as well as I do.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The state is already filling the collective defense role and you don't have a justification to duplicate it
    It's not duplication unless you're claiming that individuals don't need to own guns to defend themselves when a state exists.

    you know the problems with AnCap competition in government as well as I do.
    The existence of private security alongside (and ultimately under the authority of) the state is not competition in government.

    You say self-defense justifies robbing your neighbors to finance state level security.

    I say, how does this not justify robbing your neighbors for neighborhood watch level security.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    It's not duplication unless you're claiming that individuals don't need to own guns to defend themselves when a state exists.
    It is duplication of the collective defense function, if you want the collective defense function to include giving each individual a gun then you must use the existing state and give everyone a gun, your proposal appoints yourself a "policeman" who is armed at your neighbor's expense without giving him a gun at your expense, that is clearly duplication of the existing state.



    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The existence of private security alongside (and ultimately under the authority of) the state is not competition in government.
    It isn't private if it is collective, it is only private if you pay for it or if you get willing donors.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    You say self-defense justifies robbing your neighbors to finance state level security.

    I say, how does this not justify robbing your neighbors for neighborhood watch level security.
    If the existing state pays for it then it becomes a question of how much security is justified on a collective basis, is it justifiable to tax and spend foe a patrolman in every neighborhood?
    If the existing state isn't paying for it then it is unjustified duplication of the state.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Foreign aid isn't wrong in principle.
    So I'm a Nazi Commie Fascist because I'd support Trump's prison reforms and tariffs but sticking a government gun in my face and extorting money out of me to bribe some third world $#@!hole into not chopping each other up with machetes is not wrong.

    You anarcho-globalists are as $#@!ing nuts as the Jacobin Bolsheviks currently running amok.

    And I'm an enemy of freedom...

    Get the $#@! outta here...

    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 10-14-2018 at 12:07 AM.

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It is duplication of the collective defense function
    It is a collective defense function, not a duplication of the state's.

    It isn't private if it is collective, it is only private if you pay for it or if you get willing donors.
    By private I simply meant not part of the state, not that it was a product of voluntary interaction.

    ...

    Anyway, I'm going to call it a night (to be continued).

    I'll close with a summary of where things stand:

    You reject individual-liberty-promoting foreign interventions because:

    (a) you say foreign intervention violates "national rights" (a concept not recognized in libertarianism)

    and (b) you claim that intervention is only just in "self-defense" (basically a social contract theory, little connection to self-defense)

    In short, as I've been saying, your position on intervention is based in nationalist ideas, not libertarianism.

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    It is a collective defense function, not a duplication of the state's.
    Any additional collective defense function is unjustified duplication of the current state, there can be only one.



    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    By private I simply meant not part of the state, not that it was a product of voluntary interaction.
    But it is part of a competing state, it isn't private unless it's voluntary.



    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I'll close with a summary of where things stand:

    You reject individual-liberty-promoting foreign interventions because:

    (a) you say foreign intervention violates "national rights" (a concept not recognized in libertarianism)

    and (b) you claim that intervention is only just in "self-defense" (basically a social contract theory, little connection to self-defense)

    In short, your position on intervention is based in nationalist ideas, not libertarianism.
    It is based on libertarianism and nationalism, the two go together.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    ...

    Anyway, I'm going to call it a night (to be continued).
    Class will continue another day then.

    You are lucky you that there aren't any grades in History & Moral Philosophy.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



  15. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  16. #73
    Yes, stop all foreign aid. Also, it sucks looking through 3 pages of posts to see the same BS from sword and rev3 clogging up and hiding the great posts by real liberty seekers, such as azjoe and enhanced deficit in this thread. Itís almost like the same few seem to obfuscate a potential good thread by injecting their back and forth $#@!, while not recognizing liberty if it bit them in the ass.

    Taxation is theft, taxation of labor is slavery. What percentage of your labor would they have to tax before you realized you were a slave? I would say 100% for most around here, because services and ďreturnsĒ yo. Meanwhile, .....

    Great Ron Paul video azjoe.

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Let me summarize where we stand:

    I say: you would oppose an individual-liberty-increasing intervention in the name of protecting national rights (not a libertarian concept)

    You say: yea, but since national rights are a means to protecting individual rights, I'm really still pursuing libertarian goals

    I say: but now you admit that national right are ends in themselves, not just means, so no, you're not



    Intervention necessarily violates individual rights, to be sure.


    But does intervention necessarily result in a net loss for individual rights?
    You sound like John McCain. We need to use the military to spread freedom around the world.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by dude58677 View Post
    I figured this guy was a closet Hillary supporter. Something was off when he was against Trump despite him being a non politician which him getting elected alone ends career politics.
    Wut?
    "The Patriarch"

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post

    Not going to happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    The man did not think clearly. It was almost as if he had brain cancer of something.

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Slave Mentality View Post
    Yes, stop all foreign aid. Also, it sucks looking through 3 pages of posts to see the same BS from sword and rev3 clogging up and hiding the great posts by real liberty seekers, such as azjoe and enhanced deficit in this thread. It’s almost like the same few seem to obfuscate a potential good thread by injecting their back and forth $#@!, while not recognizing liberty if it bit them in the ass.

    Taxation is theft, taxation of labor is slavery. What percentage of your labor would they have to tax before you realized you were a slave? I would say 100% for most around here, because services and “returns” yo. Meanwhile, .....

    Great Ron Paul video azjoe.
    "The Patriarch"

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post

    Not going to happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    The man did not think clearly. It was almost as if he had brain cancer of something.

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It is based on libertarianism and nationalism, the two go together.
    On second thought, there's no need to continue the discussion.

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Foreign aid isn't wrong in principle.

    It has to be judged case by case, the criterion being whether there is a net gain or loss for liberty.

    The taxation required to finance it is always a loss.

    ...

    EM.

    Apparently taxation required for such blow-back generating foreign aid does not impact everyone while the swamp milks the working classes to send taxpayers monies to foreign puppet regimes.





    Jared Kushner 'paid nothing in federal income taxes for years' despite having a net worth of $324M and earning millions a year developing real estate

    13 October 2018
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...xes-years.html



    Related

    Trump boasts his son-in-law knows all the 'crooks' in Israel


  22. #79
    Violating nations rights for the rights of individuals is historically fraught with massive unintended consequences.

    But sometimes when you don't intervene Rwanda happens. Although that was pretty much all consequence from earlier interventions.

    Comes down to how much do you think you know, and if you know so much why do we even need prices?
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't even a thing nor are capital gains taxes
    Constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    Violating nations rights for the rights of individuals is historically fraught with massive unintended consequences.

    But sometimes when you don't intervene Rwanda happens. Although that was pretty much all consequence from earlier interventions.

    Comes down to how much do you think you know, and if you know so much why do we even need prices?
    That analogy doesn't make sense.

    The geopolitical arena isn't a market; there are no prices to begin with.



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That analogy doesn't make sense.

    The geopolitical arena isn't a market; there are no prices to begin with.
    Surely the geopolitical market is more complex than a small neighborhood economy that is itself to complex to manage efficiently without price information?

    Trying to reduce geopolitical situations down to single factors, and also believing that manipulating that factor will yield a predictable result without even quality information from each actor of the sort prices create seems a tad fool hardy.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't even a thing nor are capital gains taxes
    Constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    Surely the geopolitical market is more complex than a small neighborhood economy that is itself to complex to manage efficiently without price information?

    Trying to reduce geopolitical situations down to single factors, and also believing that manipulating that factor will yield a predictable result without even quality
    information from each actor of the sort prices create seems a tad fool hardy.
    It's not that the "geopolitical market" is complex, it's that there is no such thing.

    One person shooting another person is not a market transaction. There is no "price."

    I appreciate the analogy you're trying to make but, again, it doesn't make sense.

    Just because foreign intervention and economic intervention both have the word "intervention" in them doesn't mean they're analogues.

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    It's not that the "geopolitical market" is complex, it's that there is no such thing.

    One person shooting another person is not a market transaction. There is no "price."

    I appreciate the analogy you're trying to make but, again, it doesn't make sense.

    Just because foreign intervention and economic intervention both have the word "intervention" in them doesn't mean they're analogues.
    Both are human action, one has significantly less knowledge of the variables involved and hugely more important consequences.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't even a thing nor are capital gains taxes
    Constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    Both are human action, one has significantly less knowledge of the variables involved and hugely more important consequences.
    Smith and Jones exchanging 1 apple for 2 oranges involves human action; from this emerges a price (of apples in oranges, & vice versa).

    Smith shoots Jones in the face. Where's the price? What would "price" even mean in this context?

    Praxeology (the science of human action) is broader than economics.

    Every social phenomenon can be analyzed in terms of human action; not every social phenomenon can be analyzed economically.

    It simply makes no sense to talk about "prices" outside voluntary exchange.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 10-15-2018 at 09:35 PM.

  29. #85
    We are analyzing it morally here, and foreign aid is a really mixed bag so it should be approached with caution.

    Prices are a form of a lot of information. In fields without prices but still involving human choice, like how will all these people respond to an injection of foreign capital, the information must surely be thinner on the ground.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't even a thing nor are capital gains taxes
    Constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    We are analyzing it morally here, and foreign aid is a really mixed bag so it should be approached with caution.

    Prices are a form of a lot of information. In fields without prices but still involving human choice, like how will all these people respond to an injection of foreign capital, the information must surely be thinner on the ground.
    Suppose there's a civil war between socialists and libertarians in Region X.

    State Y is considering military action on the side of the libertarians.

    It does a cost-benefit analysis and finds that intervention would indeed be a net gain for liberty.

    If you object to this on the sort-of-Hayekian ground that State Y can't have the knowledge required to make the decision, doesn't that same criticism also apply to either of the factions in the civil war? It does. Everyone in the (geo)political arena is in the same position. There's no market containing distributed information to which we can defer. There's no option to "let the market decide." If you say to one side of a fight "let the market decide," what you're really saying is "let the other side win."

  31. #87
    Sure would solve alot of problems, now wouldn't it?

    Don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Suppose there's a civil war between socialists and libertarians in Region X.

    State Y is considering military action on the side of the libertarians.

    It does a cost-benefit analysis and finds that intervention would indeed be a net gain for liberty.

    If you object to this on the sort-of-Hayekian ground that State Y can't have the knowledge required to make the decision, doesn't that same criticism also apply to either of the factions in the civil war? It does. Everyone in the (geo)political arena is in the same position. There's no market containing distributed information to which we can defer. There's no option to "let the market decide." If you say to one side of a fight "let the market decide," what you're really saying is "let the other side win."
    According to an-caps the socialists would lose. Unless there is already intervention on the side of the socialists by another state? If the socialists are being supported then being against intervention would stop that support.

    If the an-caps can't win an a stateless civil war then what is the point of their theory?

    Also what happens when they defeat the tankies with your historically unprecedented covert support and then turn around and fly planes into buildings?
    Last edited by idiom; 10-16-2018 at 06:26 PM.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't even a thing nor are capital gains taxes
    Constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care



  33. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    According to an-caps the socialists would lose. Unless there is already intervention on the side of the socialists by another state? If the socialists are being supported then being against intervention would stop that support.

    If the an-caps can't win an a stateless civil war then what is the point of their theory?
    I don't know if an-caps would say that the libertarian faction in a civil war would necessarily win.

    I suppose some might think along those lines.

    Anyway, I'm not an an-cap, and so I'll say that there's clearly no reason to assume that the libertarian faction would win.

  35. #90
    This should fall under un-related.. because "we can't put a price tag on freedom" ( incidentally one of the better slogans neocons came up with during Iraqi freedom war):

    National debt hits $21 trillion


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