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Thread: Rand tries to regain 4th Amendment credibility again

  1. #31
    All these implied attacks on Ron's career... such a shame, what's become of this place.

    Ron Paul did more for the quote-unquote Liberty movement, such that remains of it, than any of you people. In fact a bunch of you are actively if not knowingly UNDERMINING so much that he did. Yet here you are attacking his strategy. What do any of you know?

    Something about your chains, and something about posterity ever remembering you were my countrymen.



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  3. #32
    Don't care. Still donating to Rand, Justin and Thomas on a regular basis.

    I'll never understand why the so-called friends of liberty will go to the end of the Earth to trash one of the few political successes we've had. It's not like Ron is waiting in the wings to take over the seat or something.

    If Napoleon's Shadow's wet dream comes true - we get discouraged and stop supporting Rand....then what? The GOP gets a new senator that's friendlier to them than us?

    Great game plan there, Matt.
    Last edited by angelatc; 10-12-2018 at 10:46 AM.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    All these implied attacks on Ron's career... such a shame, what's become of this place.

    Ron Paul did more for the quote-unquote Liberty movement, such that remains of it, than any of you people. In fact a bunch of you are actively if not knowingly UNDERMINING so much that he did. Yet here you are attacking his strategy. What do any of you know?

    Something about your chains, and something about posterity ever remembering you were my countrymen.
    Isn't it just Matt Collins?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Isn't it just Matt Collins?
    These days it is. The same little $#@!er that was allowed to destroy the grassroots activity with sock puppets and trolling in the forums is now back here using the same tactics, trying to destroy the support for Rand? If he had any shame, he'd be embarrassed to post here.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Isn't it just Matt Collins?
    Cute.

    Ron would have used Kavanaugh's positions on 4A to make a statement, and he would have used the opportunity to educate people about the cause of Liberty. And in the end that would have done more REAL LONG TERM GOOD than any political compromise anyone could ever make.

    Ron was born about 15 years too early.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Cute.

    Ron would have used Kavanaugh's positions on 4A to make a statement, and he would have used the opportunity to educate people about the cause of Liberty. And in the end that would have done more REAL LONG TERM GOOD than any political compromise anyone could ever make.

    Ron was born about 15 years too early.
    Ron has exactly the same ability to make a statement on Kavanaugh at this very moment as he ever did at any point in time, since he never sat in the Senate and a Congressman has exactly zero input in the process. Last statement I can find from Ron on the issue is from months ago.

    Ask yourself: Why has Ron said nothing about Kavanaugh since June? Why has he been silent about the implications for the 4th of the rape hoaxes against Kavanaugh? I can answer this for you, but you're best off coming to a conclusion on your own.

    That aside, I'd say getting rape hoaxed the way he did is going to make Kavanaugh treat the 4th a lot more seriously than anyone is giving him credit for now.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Ron has exactly the same ability to make a statement on Kavanaugh at this very moment as he ever did at any point in time, since he never sat in the Senate and a Congressman has exactly zero input in the process. Last statement I can find from Ron on the issue is from months ago.

    Ask yourself: Why has Ron said nothing about Kavanaugh since June? Why has he been silent about the implications for the 4th of the rape hoaxes against Kavanaugh? I can answer this for you, but you're best off coming to a conclusion on your own.

    That aside, I'd say getting rape hoaxed the way he did is going to make Kavanaugh treat the 4th a lot more seriously than anyone is giving him credit for now.
    Ron's role in the public eye is tremendously diminished. His role now is little different from others in the non-political liberty movement at this point.

    Again, if you think Ron, as a congressman, would have spoken in FAVOR of Brett Kavanaugh for SCOTUS, you're off your twig.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Ron's role in the public eye is tremendously diminished. His role now is little different from others in the non-political liberty movement at this point.

    Again, if you think Ron, as a congressman, would have spoken in FAVOR of Brett Kavanaugh for SCOTUS, you're off your twig.
    Deflecting the question betrays an inability to come up with a rational answer to it.

    https://twitter.com/ronpaul

    As you can see, Ron is still in the public eye, and still making statements on a daily basis - as recently as 26 minutes ago.

    You want to speak for Ron but can't explain why someone who has a long history of speaking his mind isn't saying what you would like him to say.

    As a Congressman Ron would have had no more input than he has now, so that he is no longer so is not material to the question at all.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    I'll never understand why the so-called friends of liberty will go to the end of the Earth to trash one of the few political successes we've had.
    Kavanaugh is not a political success, he is a failure of liberty. We hold our people to a higher standard because we expect more and they know better.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Just some friendly advice... this axe you're grinding against Rand is convincing exactly zero people while making you toxic to potential future employers in the political consulting field. Who's going to take a chance on someone who looks like he's seeking revenge against a former client?
    I'm not seeking revenge. I'm not even in the business any more. I do consult for some candidates here and there, but they come after me, I don't seek out work in politics and haven't in a few years.





    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    And you're basically suggesting that Rand adopt the same approach, to seek to accumulate unnecessary damage for no gain.
    Incorrect. Rand could have forced Trump's hand early on and gotten another nominee instead. And even if he couldn't, he would have raised the issue of the 4th Amendment, Patriot Act, warrant-less spying, etc and brought it back to the forefront of public attention. That would have been a tremendous gain. If he had done it right it is possible he would have even caused enough Senators to vote against Kavanaugh so that he wouldn't have been seated.

    But Rand was weak and didn't want to take the heat and fight the fight.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Laughable statement considering Rand is the first person in the history of the modern liberty movement to have direct visible policy and personal influence over a sitting president.
    That assumes this statement is true. How far does his "influence" extend? When push comes to shove does he actually have any leverage over Trump's foreign policy? I doubt it, unless of course he is using it in the regard of voting a certain way in the Senate.

    Rand it appears has sold out power for access, what we call the "Access trap"... Yeah he may have Trump's year, but at what cost?
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  15. #42

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Matt, it would be one thing if Kavanaugh just came out and said he changed his mind and Rand had to trust him. But he never changed his mind, he has been consistent as to how he approaches these matters. As long as he is consistent, he will be a much better advocate for the 4th amendment than he has been in the past.
    Huh? Can you rephrase this, I don't understand your point?
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Huh? Can you rephrase this, I don't understand your point?
    Have you read anything anybody has posted on this subject? You can't possibly be this dense..
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    As a Congressman Ron would have had no more input than he has now, so that he is no longer so is not material to the question at all.
    You mean Representative, since Senators are Congressmen as well. And I've said many times before that if Ron had been a Senator I think he might have voted/behaved much more like Randal than some people believe. The roles are different with good reason.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Rand understands that nobody will have any liberty whatsoever if the Communists take over, and also how close they actually are to taking over.

    Securing liberty does not involve being a virtue signaling pretend-to-principles ignoramus with a limited understanding of the big picture. It involves taking the best options available, and not taking a bad option just because the most preferred option isn't on the table.
    This makes sense. I’m borderline anti compromise, and wish at times that Rand was as “hard headed” for my own lack of a better term, as his father. What I mean is that I am easily turned off by compromise, but your statement helps me understand the value of compromise as it relates to a bigger picture than just the subject at hand. I am not sure if Rand really compromises though and I am in full support of him. He’s the real deal.
    No - No - No - No
    2016

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Rand understands that nobody will have any liberty whatsoever if the Communists take over, and also how close they actually are to taking over.

    Securing liberty does not involve being a virtue signaling pretend-to-principles ignoramus with a limited understanding of the big picture. It involves taking the best options available, and not taking a bad option just because the most preferred option isn't on the table.
    He could've said no, and that instead he'd support someone who wasn't a Bush toady who wanted to rip up the Fourth Amendment.

    People like Kavanaugh are the reason why this forum existed in the first place, now that Cheeto Jesus is President people actually are defending him.

    He had a chance to make a difference, and shed light on a huge issue, and he failed. All I see from you is appeal to fear.
    Authoritarianism and neoconservatism cannot be made great again.
    Trump was an enemy of Ron Paul, before he was an enemy of Rand Paul, before he was an enemy of the Freedom Caucus.
    One thing that he has remained consistent in is his hate of liberty and those who promote it.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Have you read anything anybody has posted on this subject? You can't possibly be this dense..
    You're not new here. You know this isn't true.

    Looking back over the years, I see a pattern. Matt does not build coalitions, he exists only to destroy them. There are 99 other senators who are unfriendlier to liberty than Rand Paul, but here he is....stirring up discontent in the ranks of the faithful.

    And note he does it using the words we and us. And possibly sock puppets.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Deflecting the question betrays an inability to come up with a rational answer to it.

    https://twitter.com/ronpaul

    As you can see, Ron is still in the public eye, and still making statements on a daily basis - as recently as 26 minutes ago.

    You want to speak for Ron but can't explain why someone who has a long history of speaking his mind isn't saying what you would like him to say.

    As a Congressman Ron would have had no more input than he has now, so that he is no longer so is not material to the question at all.
    Nonsense, and if you were around when it mattered, you'd know it.

    Ron wouldn't have endorsed Kavanaugh, and that's not really even debatable. Ron staked out the principled position, and whether you realize it or not, it's why you're even posting on this forum.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Cute.

    Ron would have used Kavanaugh's positions on 4A to make a statement, and he would have used the opportunity to educate people about the cause of Liberty. And in the end that would have done more REAL LONG TERM GOOD than any political compromise anyone could ever make.

    Ron was born about 15 years too early.
    Rand has been making statements and educating people about the fourth amendment his entire political career. He actually did point out Kavanaughs record on the fourth amendment, he said it sardonically saying I wonder how many more he will wipe out. It fell on deaf ears, he would of got attacked for persuing it, the same way that Judge Napolitano got attacked for it.

  24. #50
    For the record, it is both amazing and sad that this discussion is even happening here. The destruction of 4A was at one time something of a unifying principle at this site. Now we're about parsing so-called conservative "judges" who may hold somewhat decent views on some things, yet have openly advocated shredding the right of individuals to be secure from the State in their person and papers.

    Hey Bryan, maybe it's just time to rename this place JohnMcCainForums.com. Seems like it might be more in line with the popular will...

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Rand has been making statements and educating people about the fourth amendment his entire political career. He actually did point out Kavanaughs record on the fourth amendment, he said it sardonically saying I wonder how many more he will wipe out. It fell on deaf ears, he would of got attacked for persuing it, the same way that Judge Napolitano got attacked for it.
    He pointed it out as a problem and got himself a private meeting with Kavanaugh for his efforts. He came away from the meeting convinced he was worth backing. That is good enough for me.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Rand has been making statements and educating people about the fourth amendment his entire political career. He actually did point out Kavanaughs record on the fourth amendment, he said it sardonically saying I wonder how many more he will wipe out. It fell on deaf ears, he would of got attacked for persuing it, the same way that Judge Napolitano got attacked for it.
    I prefer politicians who, when they make statements their advocates don't have to say to me, "what he meant to say was...", or "what he really means is...", or "he's playing 6D chess". Maybe there is value in that, but when you don't trust the political class - and I don't know why anyone would - it does nothing for me. I ain't a sucker.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    I prefer politicians who, when they make statements their advocates don't have to say to me, "what he meant to say was...", or "what he really means is...", or "he's playing 6D chess". Maybe there is value in that, but when you don't trust the political class - and I don't know why anyone would - it does nothing for me. I ain't a sucker.
    I am not Rand's advocate, I understand his political strategy completely. Does his political strategy have a weakness? Yes, if they make the issue into a partisan circus Rand has to tip toe around the issue otherwise they will smear Rand with Trump's supporters. Rand's political strategy is to attribute libertarian policies and ideas into the presidents platform by helping him achieve his vision that they both share. If you don't want to spread those ideas than move or get out of the way.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    For the record, it is both amazing and sad that this discussion is even happening here. The destruction of 4A was at one time something of a unifying principle at this site. Now we're about parsing so-called conservative "judges" who may hold somewhat decent views on some things, yet have openly advocated shredding the right of individuals to be secure from the State in their person and papers.

    Hey Bryan, maybe it's just time to rename this place JohnMcCainForums.com. Seems like it might be more in line with the popular will...
    Hopefully this type of nonsense will end when Kavanaugh actually votes to support the 4th amendment, since you clearly aren't reading what others have posted here from Reason and such, since you don't wish to educate yourself about the topic.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    For the record, it is both amazing and sad that this discussion is even happening here. The destruction of 4A was at one time something of a unifying principle at this site. Now we're about parsing so-called conservative "judges" who may hold somewhat decent views on some things, yet have openly advocated shredding the right of individuals to be secure from the State in their person and papers.

    Hey Bryan, maybe it's just time to rename this place JohnMcCainForums.com. Seems like it might be more in line with the popular will...
    you are welcome to leave. we won't mind.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    I am not Rand's advocate, I understand his political strategy completely. Does his political strategy have a weakness? Yes, if they make the issue into a partisan circus Rand has to tip toe around the issue otherwise they will smear Rand with Trump's supporters. Rand's political strategy is to attribute libertarian policies and ideas into the presidents platform by helping him achieve his vision that they both share. If you don't want to spread those ideas than move or get out of the way.
    lol "move or get out of the way".

    Christ, listen to you... you sound like Hillary.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    you are welcome to leave. we won't mind.
    After you. It's not me who's upending the namesake of this place.

    ETA:

    Just wanted to cite my full post to which specs responded:

    For the record, it is both amazing and sad that this discussion is even happening here. The destruction of 4A was at one time something of a unifying principle at this site. Now we're about parsing so-called conservative "judges" who may hold somewhat decent views on some things, yet have openly advocated shredding the right of individuals to be secure from the State in their person and papers.
    For that, at RPF, I'm told to show myself to the door.

    So outrageous of me, to be sure. What was I thinking, finding a PATRIOT ACT apologist unacceptable for SCOTUS. What a detriment to liberty I am. What a vile, vile statist. I must be like Woodrow Wilson, Abraham Lincoln and Adolf Hitler all rolled up into one.

    WTF RPF...
    Last edited by A Son of Liberty; 10-12-2018 at 02:51 PM.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Hopefully this type of nonsense will end when Kavanaugh actually votes to support the 4th amendment, since you clearly aren't reading what others have posted here from Reason and such, since you don't wish to educate yourself about the topic.
    "Hopefully this type of nonsense will end..." AFTER Kavanaugh proves - as an associate Justice - that he's worthy of defending the constitution.

    That's an OUTSTANDING liberty argument you have right there.

    $#@!'s sake... this place anymore...

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    lol "move or get out of the way".

    Christ, listen to you... you sound like Hillary.
    I sound like Hillary because I don't want to obstruct Rand's plans to introduce liberty into the Trump platform in order to promote the ideas to the most amount of people possible?

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    I sound like Hillary because I don't want to obstruct Rand's plans to introduce liberty into the Trump platform in order to promote the ideas to the most amount of people possible?
    No. You sounds like Hillary because "than [sic] move or get out of the way".

    I stepped into this thread because I find Kavanaugh's position on 4A to be ATROCIOUS. That's not an UNREASONABLE position for liberty-minded folks to stake out... or at least it wasn't, time ago. Now, because I find it unacceptable that Rand - who is supposedly a standard-bearer of the liberty movement in FedGov - gave Kavanaugh a pass on what should be an i/o proposition here, I'm told to "get out of the way"... at RONPAULFORUMS.

    Seriously!?

    What the $#@! happened here?! Somehow, my POV is the problem.

    YOU GET OUT.

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