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Thread: Rand tries to regain 4th Amendment credibility again

  1. #1

    Thumbs down Rand tries to regain 4th Amendment credibility again

    And here is Rand attempting to regain credibility on the 4th Amendment even though he just voted to seat a Supreme Court Justice who was ok with blatantly violating it.




    Why didn't he publicly ask Kavanaugh if it was ok for the FBI to violate the 4th Amendment?






    https://twitter.com/RandPaul/status/1050045944555888640

    https://twitter.com/RandPaul/status/1050051828073795585
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst



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  3. #2
    This has already been explained. You keep ignoring it. Quit spreading falsehoods.


    https://reason.com/blog/2018/09/13/b...enter-v-united
    Theye have refused their Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    Theye have erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

    Theye kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies

    Theye have combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution,

    For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

    For cutting off our Trade with parts of the world:

    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

    Theye plundered and destroyed the lives of our people.

    Theye are at this time transporting Armies of Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy of a civilized nation.

  4. #3
    Rand Paul To Christopher Wray: Are President Trump's Calls Being Collected By NSA or FBI
    https://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...-By-NSA-or-FBI

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    This has already been explained. You keep ignoring it. Quit spreading falsehoods.


    https://reason.com/blog/2018/09/13/b...enter-v-united
    That doesn't actually explain anything. Kavanaugh's actions are very telling about his support for breaking the 4th Amendment.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    That doesn't actually explain anything. Kavanaugh's actions are very telling about his support for breaking the 4th Amendment.
    You can claim Rand is gullible if you wish but that doesn't mean he has no 4thA credibility.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #6
    Rand understands that nobody will have any liberty whatsoever if the Communists take over, and also how close they actually are to taking over.

    Securing liberty does not involve being a virtue signaling pretend-to-principles ignoramus with a limited understanding of the big picture. It involves taking the best options available, and not taking a bad option just because the most preferred option isn't on the table.
    Oligarchy delenda est

    “If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.” - Samuel Adams

  8. #7
    Rand Paul has plenty of 4A credibility. More than anybody here can claim with their zero sum game mentality.
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  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    That doesn't actually explain anything. Kavanaugh's actions are very telling about his support for breaking the 4th Amendment.
    It DOES actually explain quite a bit WRT Rand's support of Kavanaugh after their discussions with each other. It just doesn't conform to the outcome you wish it to. The lack of time you spend here, and the amount of time spent bashing Rand when you do, only makes it appear that you have burned so many bridges in the libertarian and Republican political circles that you're virtue signalling to the libtards in an effort to get some kind of job in their circles. Perhaps you can't $#@! up making a cup of chai tea.
    Theye have refused their Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    Theye have erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

    Theye kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies

    Theye have combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution,

    For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

    For cutting off our Trade with parts of the world:

    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

    Theye plundered and destroyed the lives of our people.

    Theye are at this time transporting Armies of Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy of a civilized nation.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You can claim Rand is gullible if you wish but that doesn't mean he has no 4thA credibility.
    After voting for Kavanaugh, he has no 4A credibility.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Rand understands that nobody will have any liberty whatsoever if the Communists take over, and also how close they actually are to taking over.
    The statists have long since taken over.

    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    It involves taking the best options available, and not taking a bad option just because the most preferred option isn't on the table.
    Wrong. This is bad political strategy that is guaranteed to let the progressives win. Settle for nothing less than 100%, go on the offensive at every opportunity. And there was a choice that was better than Kavanuagh, Trump didn't even want him.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  13. #11

    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    It DOES actually explain quite a bit WRT Rand's support of Kavanaugh after their discussions with each other.
    No, not at all. Kavanaugh never said he was wrong in regards to his opinions on the 4th. And he never said he would rule with the Constitution instead of with the government in the future. And he never apologized for ruling against the Constitution in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    It just doesn't conform to the outcome you wish it to. The lack of time you spend here, and the amount of time spent bashing Rand when you do, only makes it appear that you have burned so many bridges in the libertarian and Republican political circles that you're virtue signalling to the libtards in an effort to get some kind of job in their circles. Perhaps you can't $#@! up making a cup of chai tea.
    I have no idea what this statement even means as it doesn't make any sense
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    After voting for Kavanaugh, he has no 4A credibility.
    In your mind, but nobody cares what you think.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    The statists have long since taken over.
    And communists are much worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Wrong. This is bad political strategy that is guaranteed to let the progressives win. Settle for nothing less than 100%, go on the offensive at every opportunity. And there was a choice that was better than Kavanuagh, Trump didn't even want him.
    Then we couldn't get him and therefore your strategy would have made a bad situation worse, tilt and windmills all you want but stop throwing stone at someone who chooses a less than perfect outcome over a disaster.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #14
    Does Collins have a depressing avatar?

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    In your mind, but nobody cares what you think.
    It would help if you all would just ignore the little devil.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Wrong. This is bad political strategy that is guaranteed to let the progressives win. Settle for nothing less than 100%, go on the offensive at every opportunity. And there was a choice that was better than Kavanuagh, Trump didn't even want him.
    And your record of political success that makes you an authority greater than Senator Rand Paul on political strategy is... ?
    Oligarchy delenda est

    “If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.” - Samuel Adams



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    And communists are much worse.
    Communists are statists. You need to lean what a Venn Diagram is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Then we couldn't get him and therefore your strategy would have made a bad situation worse, tilt and windmills all you want but stop throwing stone at someone who chooses a less than perfect outcome over a disaster.
    Incorrect. It is possible Rand could have forced his hand and had Mike Lee chosen instead. That was a very realistic possibility. However, given the way things went down, Rand still could have voted against Kavanaugh, standing on principle, and Trump's nominee would have gotten seated anyway. There was margin.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    And your record of political success that makes you an authority greater than Senator Rand Paul on political strategy is... ?
    At this point yes, Rand has fallen in to the access trap which means he essentially is ineffective and holds virtually no power.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    In your mind, but nobody cares what you think.
    Again, untrue. The hundreds of people who respond positively to my similar comments on Facebook show otherwise.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Again, untrue. The hundreds of people who respond positively to my similar comments on Facebook show otherwise.
    Seems like you know which way to go.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    At this point yes, Rand has fallen in to the access trap which means he essentially is ineffective and holds virtually no power.
    The more straightforward explanation is that a person with so little accomplishment that he deflects the question when asked directly and who comes off as bitter over not having made the cut for Rand's political team simply lacks the humility to assess the situation objectively.
    Oligarchy delenda est

    “If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.” - Samuel Adams

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Communists are statists. You need to lean what a Venn Diagram is.


    Incorrect. It is possible Rand could have forced his hand and had Mike Lee chosen instead. That was a very realistic possibility. However, given the way things went down, Rand still could have voted against Kavanaugh, standing on principle, and Trump's nominee would have gotten seated anyway. There was margin.
    It's also possible this could have dragged on beyond the elections. Anything could have happened if the Dems retake a majority, and likely nothing good. I don't really care if Princess Murkowski gets drummed out of office by angry republicans for dicking around on close votes, but I'd rather the same not happen to Rand.

    At this point yes, Rand has fallen in to the access trap which means he essentially is ineffective and holds virtually no power.
    Weren't you stripped of a GOP position for not shaking someone's hand in 2009? How much effectiveness and power did you get from doing that? Not saying you were wrong, but you seem to be holding Rand to an unreasonable standard that you sort of blew yourself when you were in a similar situation.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 10-11-2018 at 11:31 PM.

  26. #23

    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    The more straightforward explanation is that a person with so little accomplishment that he deflects the question when asked directly and who comes off as bitter over not having made the cut for Rand's political team simply lacks the humility to assess the situation objectively.
    Uh no. I didn't want to live in DC or KY. And I had worked for Rand during the campaign in 09/10. The 2016 "campaign" was an embarrassing joke. I realized it on day one and wanted no part of it from then forward.

    I would however like to see Rand shape up and start fighting hard for principle, which he seems to have abandoned more and more as time moved on.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    It's also possible this could have dragged on beyond the elections. Anything could have happened if the Dems retake a majority, and likely nothing good. I don't really care if Princess Murkowski gets drummed out of office by angry republicans for dicking around on close votes, but I'd rather the same not happen to Rand.
    Rand has no chance of losing his Senate seat in KY. Remember they keep electing Mitch too. Rand could have gone to Trump immediately and explained to him his objections early on. Or better yet, Trump should have asked him before he went with Kavanaugh.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    That doesn't actually explain anything. Kavanaugh's actions are very telling about his support for breaking the 4th Amendment.
    I thought they were more telling about his support for textualism.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  30. #26
    Matt, it would be one thing if Kavanaugh just came out and said he changed his mind and Rand had to trust him. But he never changed his mind, he has been consistent as to how he approaches these matters. As long as he is consistent, he will be a much better advocate for the 4th amendment than he has been in the past.

    Why don't you wait and see what happens before making these type of judgments?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    At this point yes, Rand has fallen in to the access trap which means he essentially is ineffective and holds virtually no power.
    Laughable statement considering Rand is the first person in the history of the modern liberty movement to have direct visible policy and personal influence over a sitting president. The strategy you suggest is sexier but to say it's the only one and Rand has no influence is just hilarious.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Uh no. I didn't want to live in DC or KY. And I had worked for Rand during the campaign in 09/10. The 2016 "campaign" was an embarrassing joke. I realized it on day one and wanted no part of it from then forward.

    I would however like to see Rand shape up and start fighting hard for principle, which he seems to have abandoned more and more as time moved on.
    Just some friendly advice... this axe you're grinding against Rand is convincing exactly zero people while making you toxic to potential future employers in the political consulting field. Who's going to take a chance on someone who looks like he's seeking revenge against a former client?

    This is only hurting you personally while achieving nothing. And you're basically suggesting that Rand adopt the same approach, to seek to accumulate unnecessary damage for no gain.
    Oligarchy delenda est

    “If you love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.” - Samuel Adams

  33. #29
    Watch out for the Police Drones.

    I seem to remember him being OK with that too.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Watch out for the Police Drones.

    I seem to remember him being OK with that too.
    Only if there is an active crime occurring (a violent crime, theft or otherwise, not a drug crime or something) - as opposed to a suspected crime, or a known non-violent crime.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

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