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Thread: Rand tries to regain 4th Amendment credibility again

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    After voting for Kavanaugh, he has no 4A credibility.
    That depends on what we mean by "credibility."

    Do I believe that Rand believes in the 4th amendment? Yes

    Do I believe that Rand can be relied upon to defend it when it's politically difficult to do so? ...not so much these days



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    You sounds like Hillary because "than [sic] move or get out of the way".
    Sounds more like Not Sure
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That depends on what we mean by "credibility."

    Do I believe that Rand believes in the 4th amendment? Yes

    Do I believe that Rand can be relied upon to defend it when it's politically difficult to do so? ...not so much these days
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to r3volution 3.0 again.
    //

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    What the $#@! happened here?! Somehow, my POV is the problem.

    YOU GET OUT.
    Your point of view is that Rand should quit trying to influence policy and propagate ideas of liberty because we can't pick the Supreme court nominee. For one thing the establishment took away the filabuster- Tell me genius how does Rand influence people people into thinking that we should change policy if they think he is just part of the fake news attacking the nominee, because that's all people would see if they saw Rand obstructing the nomination, they would think he is part of the establishment because the establishment was attacking the nominee.



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Your point of view is that Rand should quit trying to influence policy and propagate ideas of liberty because we can't pick the Supreme court nominee. For one thing the establishment took away the filabuster- Tell me genius how does Rand influence people people into thinking that we should change policy if they think he is just part of the fake news attacking the nominee, because that's all people would see if they saw Rand obstructing the nomination, they would think he is part of the establishment because the establishment was attacking the nominee.
    My point of view is that liberty-minded people should be highlighting the importance of, for example, the 4A protections in the constitution...

    Ron constantly found opportunities to speak to the people about these rights, and why they're important. As a consequence, he taught a helluva lot of people about the principles undergirding the constitution, myself included. Had he played ball, I and millions more - many of whom USED to regular this site - wouldn't have ever learned a THING about freedom.

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Nonsense, and if you were around when it mattered, you'd know it.
    I've been around for coming-on 30 years now. I was involved with both RP campaigns. I've been a delegate to quite a few county, CD, and state-level conventions.

    I was also the key figure that caused Eric Cantor to lose his race, and also during that campaign directly caused him via political pressure to lift the leadership block on the Benghazi Commission.

    Which means, if not for what I did, you would never have heard of Clinton's email server and she would be President of the United States today, and have appointed a far-left hardcore Communist to that seat instead of Kavanaugh.

    Taking out a House majority leader was an unprecedented feat, by the way. It had never happened before and has not happened since, and is not likely to happen again in our lifetimes.

    If you're going to attack someone for not having done enough for liberty, you could not have picked a worse target for that charge. I've made more of a real world difference in the fight for liberty than every other user of this site combined, and the contest isn't a close one.


    I now invite you to list all your accomplishments in the service of the cause of liberty, or alternatively, to issue a sincere and well-owed apology for the improper resort to ignorant ad hominem.

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    You mean Representative, since Senators are Congressmen as well. And I've said many times before that if Ron had been a Senator I think he might have voted/behaved much more like Randal than some people believe. The roles are different with good reason.
    "Congressman" refers to Representatives specifically in its primary usage, FYI.

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Hopefully this type of nonsense will end when Kavanaugh actually votes to support the 4th amendment, since you clearly aren't reading what others have posted here from Reason and such, since you don't wish to educate yourself about the topic.
    Now that Matt has us fighting with each other, he left. Every single time.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Now that Matt has us fighting with each other, he left. Every single time.
    I wonder who he really works for......

    Whoever it is they want us to fight among ourselves and pursue Pyrrhic ideological victories while the world goes to hell in a hand basket instead of making actual progress towards our goals.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I wonder who he really works for......

    Whoever it is they want us to fight among ourselves and pursue Pyrrhic ideological victories while the world goes to hell in a hand basket instead of making actual progress towards our goals.
    I could be wrong, but I always thought he just took some political seminar course back in 2008 and took it way too seriously. Like the whole thing became his Bible.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    I could be wrong, but I always thought he just took some political seminar course back in 2008 and took it way too seriously. Like the whole thing became his Bible.
    That's possible but it would also make a great cover story.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    I've been around for coming-on 30 years now. I was involved with both RP campaigns. I've been a delegate to quite a few county, CD, and state-level conventions.

    I was also the key figure that caused Eric Cantor to lose his race, and also during that campaign directly caused him via political pressure to lift the leadership block on the Benghazi Commission.

    Which means, if not for what I did, you would never have heard of Clinton's email server and she would be President of the United States today, and have appointed a far-left hardcore Communist to that seat instead of Kavanaugh.

    Taking out a House majority leader was an unprecedented feat, by the way. It had never happened before and has not happened since, and is not likely to happen again in our lifetimes.

    If you're going to attack someone for not having done enough for liberty, you could not have picked a worse target for that charge. I've made more of a real world difference in the fight for liberty than every other user of this site combined, and the contest isn't a close one.


    I now invite you to list all your accomplishments in the service of the cause of liberty, or alternatively, to issue a sincere and well-owed apology for the improper resort to ignorant ad hominem.
    Well I'm not as old as you, so you'll have to forgive me for only being around since '08, but in that time I've served as a country chair for C4L, canvased and door-to-door'd for Ron during the '12 run; I've hosted speaking events for my local community by minor "celebrities" in the liberty movement...

    But the point wasn't to engage in a dick-measuring contest between you and I, obviously. It was to highlight the rather stark differences between the approach that Ron took - which was largely uncompromising, and resulted in a legitimate movement of engaged, mostly younger converts to the cause, versus the rather cynical and uninspiring approach of going-along-to-get-along, and hope for some scraps from the table that Rand seems to employ.

    At the end of the day, I'm not here to run Rand down... it's just that it gets awfully frustrating reading post after post abusing the very methods that brought most of us here (if you go back to my first post in this thread, you'll see that's exactly what I was getting at).

    Don't forget your roots, and don't forget all the good that the "absolutist" approach did. This place probably wouldn't even be a PLACE if it wasn't for it...



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    At the end of the day, I'm not here to run Rand down... it's just that it gets awfully frustrating reading post after post abusing the very methods that brought most of us here (if you go back to my first post in this thread, you'll see that's exactly what I was getting at).

    Don't forget your roots, and don't forget all the good that the "absolutist" approach did. This place probably wouldn't even be a PLACE if it wasn't for it...

    The best strategy would be a multi-pronged strategy with people like Ron and people like Rand. But like times 100.

    Ron is better at being Ron, and Rand is better at being Rand. Ron shouldn't try to be Rand and Rand should wait to be more like Ron until it serves the movement better to do so.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    It was to highlight the rather stark differences between the approach that Ron took - which was largely uncompromising, and resulted in a legitimate movement of engaged, mostly younger converts to the cause, versus the rather cynical and uninspiring approach of going-along-to-get-along, and hope for some scraps from the table that Rand seems to employ.
    There are many positive roles to be played in the quest for liberty, and they ALL need to be filled in order to make the project work. Ron filled one of those roles, Rand fills a different one. All us little people on the ground fill roles too.

    They don't all have to be the same role, to contribute to the same goal.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    The best strategy would be a multi-pronged strategy with people like Ron and people like Rand. But like times 100.

    Ron is better at being Ron, and Rand is better at being Rand. Ron shouldn't try to be Rand and Rand should wait to be more like Ron until it serves the movement better to do so.
    1 Corinthians
    Chapter 12




    14 For the body is not one member, but many.
    15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
    16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
    17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
    18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
    19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
    20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

    21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I wonder who he really works for......

    Whoever it is they want us to fight among ourselves and pursue Pyrrhic ideological victories while the world goes to hell in a hand basket instead of making actual progress towards our goals.
    Too bad you weren't around for his Truffle Shuffle.

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    The best strategy would be a multi-pronged strategy with people like Ron and people like Rand. But like times 100.

    Ron is better at being Ron, and Rand is better at being Rand. Ron shouldn't try to be Rand and Rand should wait to be more like Ron until it serves the movement better to do so.
    Exactly. And people like you and me being active, independent forces, each with his own agency, seeking out every opportunity to advance the cause.

    Our independence of mind and character and action is our best feature. It would be insane not to put it to full use!

    And in terms of method, we need to be incremental, as Ron noted. So our guys don't need to be pure - they just need to be better than the guys they replaced. And when we have the luxury of doing even better than the current guys, we can upgrade. Right now it's all we can do to stick in enough guys who are good enough to slow down Leviathan and put it into a turn.

    There's a crapload of work to be done, and it ain't being done by the guys who are too pure to get their hands dirty. The Founders were a collection of flawed men who produced something greater than themselves, and so shall be we.

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Too bad you weren't around for his Truffle Shuffle.
    He actually threatened to sue people who saved it.

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    It fell on deaf ears, he would of got attacked for persuing it, the same way that Judge Napolitano got attacked for it.
    That's why we sent him there, to take the tough positions and stand on principle regardless of what others think. Not bow to political winds and pressures.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    He pointed it out as a problem and got himself a private meeting with Kavanaugh for his efforts. He came away from the meeting convinced he was worth backing. That is good enough for me.
    Then you are as naive as he is. Politics 101: private promises mean nothing. And in this case public promises don't really mean much more either since there is zero ways to hold a Justice accountable after the fact.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    The best strategy would be a multi-pronged strategy with people like Ron and people like Rand. But like times 100.

    Ron is better at being Ron, and Rand is better at being Rand. Ron shouldn't try to be Rand and Rand should wait to be more like Ron until it serves the movement better to do so.
    No, Rand's strategy failed here. A bad SCOTUS nominee was seated and Rand helped do it without offering any resistance at all. That is 100% failed leadership.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    That depends on what we mean by "credibility."

    Do I believe that Rand believes in the 4th amendment? Yes

    Do I believe that Rand can be relied upon to defend it when it's politically difficult to do so? ...not so much these days
    Perhaps a valid point.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    No, Rand's strategy failed here. A bad SCOTUS nominee was seated and Rand helped do it without offering any resistance at all. That is 100% failed leadership.
    What would the outcome have been, do you suppose, had he done what you said? Would it have promoted liberty better in the long run?
    Last edited by dannno; 10-13-2018 at 12:05 AM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    There are many positive roles to be played in the quest for liberty, and they ALL need to be filled in order to make the project work. Ron filled one of those roles, Rand fills a different one. All us little people on the ground fill roles too.

    They don't all have to be the same role, to contribute to the same goal.
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    There's a crapload of work to be done, and it ain't being done by the guys who are too pure to get their hands dirty. The Founders were a collection of flawed men who produced something greater than themselves, and so shall be we.
    Welp, that didn't last very long.

    lol, oh well. You guys just keep compromising. Sooner or later, you'll forget what you actually stand for. But hey, who needs the 4A anyway!?

    As for me, I'll be over here with Ron. Ta.

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    There are many positive roles to be played in the quest for liberty, and they ALL need to be filled in order to make the project work. Ron filled one of those roles, Rand fills a different one. All us little people on the ground fill roles too.

    They don't all have to be the same role, to contribute to the same goal.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    What would the outcome have been, do you suppose, had he done what you said? Would it have promoted liberty better in the long run?
    Do you REALLY believe there was nothing to do but bend to the nominee or risk some political exile? There's no such thing as diplomacy, I guess?

    "I respect the office of the President and the authority of the chief executive to appoint Justices. Brett Kavanaugh is a mixed bag, in my view. He is a clear improvement over Anthony Kennedy, at least in terms of the rulings we have before us. However it is my belief, and my duty in my role as a Senator to advise in this process, that there are better choices for this all important role. If the president deems judge Kavanaugh to be the best choice that he can make, then so be it... but the cause of liberty is served more nobly by a nominee such as Mike Lee, or X..."

    Nothing so much as that, conjured up by me at 5:30 on a Saturday morning? Something that could have signaled to the people that Rand is a true advocate, even though he must play this game? No? Just drop immediately to thine knees before Trump and Kavanaugh, grasp firmly in-hand and go to work, huh?

    We have different ideas about what serves liberty in the long run.

    Again, shame what's come of this place.

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    That aside, I'd say getting rape hoaxed the way he did is going to make Kavanaugh treat the 4th a lot more seriously than anyone is giving him credit for now.
    This.

  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    That aside, I'd say getting rape hoaxed the way he did is going to make Kavanaugh treat the 4th a lot more seriously than anyone is giving him credit for now.
    I view it the opposite, seems like a reason he'd be for more big brother and advocating recording everything possible so 30 years later they can bring up old emails, phone calls, phone locations to help show the innocence of the politically connected.
    “…let us teach them that all who draw breath are of equal worth, and that those who seek to press heel upon the throat of liberty, will fall to the cry of FREEDOM!!!” – Spartacus, War of the Damned

    BTC: 1AFbCLYU3G1dkbsSJnk3spWeEwpqYVC2Pq

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Too bad you weren't around for his Truffle Shuffle.
    I still have still shots of that.



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  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    That assumes this statement is true. How far does his "influence" extend? When push comes to shove does he actually have any leverage over Trump's foreign policy? I doubt it, unless of course he is using it in the regard of voting a certain way in the Senate.

    Rand it appears has sold out power for access, what we call the "Access trap"... Yeah he may have Trump's year, but at what cost?
    I said policy not foreign policy, you are a single issue guy?. Rand may have a little influence on foreign policy, not nearly enough for sure. But he directly convinced the president to act on healthcare. That's influence however you look at it. Some of the Trump fans here might have more examples, but this one was obvious.
    https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...lth-care-order
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Now that Matt has us fighting with each other, he left. Every single time.
    ^^^THIS^^^

    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to angelatc again.

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