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Thread: Rand tries to regain 4th Amendment credibility again

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    ^^^THIS^^^

    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to angelatc again.



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  3. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    What would the outcome have been, do you suppose, had he done what you said? Would it have promoted liberty better in the long run?
    Best case scenerio, Trump would have been forced to go with someone better as the nominee.

    Worst case scenario, Rand is the lone guy standing up for principle and makes a great case as to why Kavanaugh shouldn't be on the court and the 4th Amendment / Patriot Act gets discussed forefront and center of the news for days or weeks on end shaming both parties who participated in it, but ultimately Kavanaugh gets confirmed anyway and Rand takes a lot of heat but in the end stays steadfast.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  4. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    The statists have long since taken over.

    Wrong. This is bad political strategy that is guaranteed to let the progressives win. Settle for nothing less than 100%, go on the offensive at every opportunity. And there was a choice that was better than Kavanuagh, Trump didn't even want him.
    Libertarians are the worst group when it comes to political strategy and actually getting results/stuff done. There is a reason they are irrelevant and have accomplished nothing. A group of 5 year olds can outproduce the results of Libertarians in the modern era. If we listened to the purist libertarians we would have president Hillary Clinton right now. They incrementally (not instantly) took over America and we will incrementally take it back, not instantly. The idea that we will magically elect only 100% pure libertarians and take back the government that way is beyond delusional. It has never worked and never will.

    Trump is doing more for the liberty movement than any purist Libertarian ever will.
    "Countries are benefited when they changed these [national sovereignty] policies, and evidence suggests that North Americans are ready for a new relationship that renders this old definition of sovereignty obsolete."

    CFR task force co-chairman Robert Pastor

  5. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Communists are statists. You need to lean what a Venn Diagram is.


    Incorrect. It is possible Rand could have forced his hand and had Mike Lee chosen instead. That was a very realistic possibility. However, given the way things went down, Rand still could have voted against Kavanaugh, standing on principle, and Trump's nominee would have gotten seated anyway. There was margin.
    And what do you think would have happened to Rand's political future and future reelection chances if he voted against Kavanaugh?

    You have to have long term political strategy. Going scorched earth will only result in defeat and accomplish nothing.
    "Countries are benefited when they changed these [national sovereignty] policies, and evidence suggests that North Americans are ready for a new relationship that renders this old definition of sovereignty obsolete."

    CFR task force co-chairman Robert Pastor

  6. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Best case scenerio, Trump would have been forced to go with someone better as the nominee.

    Worst case scenario, Rand is the lone guy standing up for principle and makes a great case as to why Kavanaugh shouldn't be on the court and the 4th Amendment / Patriot Act gets discussed forefront and center of the news for days or weeks on end shaming both parties who participated in it, but ultimately Kavanaugh gets confirmed anyway and Rand takes a lot of heat but in the end stays steadfast.
    You forgot what was probably actually going to happen - we would have ended up with a WORSE nominee...
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
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    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  7. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by kpitcher View Post
    I view it the opposite, seems like a reason he'd be for more big brother and advocating recording everything possible so 30 years later they can bring up old emails, phone calls, phone locations to help show the innocence of the politically connected.
    All that still can't prove innocence, though.

    If an accuser and the accused were actually in the same place same time alone 25 years ago and nothing happened, how does the accused defend himself? No amount of recordkeeping short of real-time, full time video and/or monitoring of vital signs could reasonably establish innocence, and even then there would still be instances where it would be ambiguous.

    No, I think he's quite inteligent enough to understand that what happened to him makes the accused practically defenseless and turns it into a political question rather than a question of law. That's why he ripped into them in his defense, and rightly so. He already understood this on that day, that he was being tried for accusations against which a completely innocent person has no sure defense, in a political court rather than a court of law.

    Regular people don't have access to national security collections to make defense cases, either. Not even he had access to that for his defense.



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  9. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    ^^^THIS^^^

    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to angelatc again.
    Covered.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  10. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    This.
    lol how comforting. Definitely make it all seem worth it. Thanks for stopping by lol

  11. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    I said policy not foreign policy, you are a single issue guy?. Rand may have a little influence on foreign policy, not nearly enough for sure. But he directly convinced the president to act on healthcare. That's influence however you look at it. Some of the Trump fans here might have more examples, but this one was obvious.
    https://thehill.com/policy/healthcar...lth-care-order
    The goal should be power, not influence.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  12. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    The goal should be power, not influence.
    Rand has all the power he can get right now, influence is a bonus.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    You forgot what was probably actually going to happen - we would have ended up with a WORSE nominee...
    Unlikely. Trump wanted someone better but he was strong armed into Kavanaugh by the deep state. Besides, on the 4th Amendment there isn't anyone really worse than Kavanaugh.

    Mike Lee and one or two other people on his short list would have been better than Kavanaugh.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  14. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by nbhadja View Post
    And what do you think would have happened to Rand's political future and future reelection chances if he voted against Kavanaugh?
    Nothing. He would keep getting reelected, assuming he is even running again.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  15. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by nbhadja View Post
    Libertarians are the worst group when it comes to political strategy and actually getting results/stuff done. There is a reason they are irrelevant and have accomplished nothing. A group of 5 year olds can outproduce the results of Libertarians in the modern era. If we listened to the purist libertarians we would have president Hillary Clinton right now. They incrementally (not instantly) took over America and we will incrementally take it back, not instantly. The idea that we will magically elect only 100% pure libertarians and take back the government that way is beyond delusional. It has never worked and never will.

    Trump is doing more for the liberty movement than any purist Libertarian ever will.
    There are a few books you need to read because you clearly do not understand how political strategy.

    1- Saul Alinsky Rules for Radicals

    2- Confrontational Politics
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  16. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Rand has all the power he can get right now, influence is a bonus.
    Untrue. He has very little power, and what he does have he isn't using.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst



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  18. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Don't care. Still donating to Rand, Justin and Thomas on a regular basis.

    I'll never understand why the so-called friends of liberty will go to the end of the Earth to trash one of the few political successes we've had. It's not like Ron is waiting in the wings to take over the seat or something.

    If Napoleon's Shadow's wet dream comes true - we get discouraged and stop supporting Rand....then what? The GOP gets a new senator that's friendlier to them than us?

    Great game plan there, Matt.

    Someone give a rep for me on this post since I'm low on ammo.

    Anyway, anybody kept track of how many Rand sucks threads teh collinz has made thus far?
    THE SQUAD of RPF
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    4. TheCount - Comet Pizza Pedo Denier <-- sick

    @Ehanced_Deficit's real agenda on RPF =troll:

    Who spends this much time copy/pasting the same recycled links, photos/talking points.

    7 yrs/25k posts later RPF'ers still respond to this troll

  19. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Untrue. He has very little power, and what he does have he isn't using.
    Outside very rare circumstances, he has no power to change the outcome of votes.

    The only real benefit to the liberty movement of having Senator Paul is that he can make a lot of noise.

    Senators get a lot more press than some random guy waving a sign on the street corner.

    But, as you say, Rand hasn't used this power very effectively in recent years.

  20. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Outside very rare circumstances, he has no power to change the outcome of votes.
    With a Senate this tight, it is possible he may have had an opportunity here.

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The only real benefit to the liberty movement of having Senator Paul is that he can make a lot of noise.
    Rand has done a lot of good things besides making noise. He has forced votes and amendments that they didn't want to do. But that was mostly when Obama was in office. Now since it is Republicans in control of things he doesn't seem to be standing firm like he used to.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  21. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    With a Senate this tight, it is possible he may have had an opportunity here.
    Not according to the final vote tally, but, yes, had he made some noise earlier, things might have changed.

    The narrative would certainly have changed, which would have made it worthwhile.

    Rand has done a lot of good things besides making noise. He has forced votes and amendments that they didn't want to do. But that was mostly when Obama was in office. Now since it is Republicans in control of things he doesn't seem to be standing firm like he used to.
    I'd call that noise (not intended as a disparaging description of what he can do), except where it actually changed which bills passed.

  22. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    There are a few books you need to read because you clearly do not understand how political strategy.

    1- Saul Alinsky Rules for Radicals

    2- Confrontational Politics
    Quote Originally Posted by AngelaTC
    These days it is. The same little $#@!er that was allowed to destroy the grassroots activity with sock puppets and trolling in the forums is now back here using the same tactics, trying to destroy the support for Rand? If he had any shame, he'd be embarrassed to post here.
    Think I found Zip.

    Twas matt all along.

    Traffic here is dead.

    And admit it, some people love to come here, just to laugh at Zip when he is wrong again.
    You come to get your jabs in and mock him, etc.
    He must be a foil.

    Just like Kanye. Everybody hates Kanye, but everybody is talking about Kanye, and getting ratings for it.

    But you gotta keep the tank stirring and boiling.

    You gotta keep the flint on steel.

    Yup.

  23. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    That's why we sent him there, to take the tough positions and stand on principle regardless of what others think. Not bow to political winds and pressures.
    Don't you think that treating the illness instead of symptoms is the only approach Rand Paul would take to any sort of problem? Rand was able to go on the news and criticize Trumps foreign policy on fox and Trumps supporters don't freak out about it because Rand is considered to be not opposition to the president.

  24. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    The goal should be power, not influence.
    Oh boohoo, Rand is changing policy but not enough he's so bad and it's all his fault that America is not free enough...
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  25. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I'd call that noise (not intended as a disparaging description of what he can do), except where it actually changed which bills passed.
    Getting politicians on record for a vote is actually one of the most important things one can do as a legislator. This record can then be used against them to take them out or at least cause them pain the next election. Legislators like to do nothing but if you force them to go on record it exposes them. This is very useful come election time.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst



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  27. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Oh boohoo, Rand is changing policy but not enough he's so bad and it's all his fault that America is not free enough...
    If you don't understand the nature of power, how it is acquired, and how it works, then you will end up chasing your tail. Having power is very different then having influence. You don't want influence, you want power.


    The best analogy I can make is fiat currency vs owning hard assets.
    Last edited by Matt Collins; 10-14-2018 at 10:16 AM.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  28. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    Getting politicians on record for a vote is actually one of the most important things one can do as a legislator. This record can then be used against them to take them out or at least cause them pain the next election. Legislators like to do nothing but if you force them to go on record it exposes them. This is very useful come election time.
    Agreed

  29. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Only if there is an active crime occurring (a violent crime, theft or otherwise, not a drug crime or something) - as opposed to a suspected crime, or a known non-violent crime.
    A) Since when is theft a violent crime? Robbery is theft by violence. Which means that regular theft is, by definition, non violent. I wouldn't want to see a police drone gun down a shoplifter for example.

    and

    B) From the desk of Ron Paul.

    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  30. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    You forgot what was probably actually going to happen - we would have ended up with a WORSE nominee...
    Who?

    Been lied to by everyone in office so far. and have no trust for any.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  31. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I wonder who he really works for......

    Whoever it is they want us to fight among ourselves and pursue Pyrrhic ideological victories while the world goes to hell in a hand basket instead of making actual progress towards our goals.
    Matt Collins is DEEP STATE.



    Anyone not scared yet?

    What are "your goals"? They sure aren't mine so don't say "our" like a collectivist. Apparently defending the 4th Amendment doesn't seem to be one of your "our goals" though.

    I also remember you posting a picture essentially glorifying the image of King Trump.

    Why is it that you seem to gravitate authoritarianism and put down liberty?

    Who's the real snake in the grass?
    Last edited by Anti-Neocon; 10-15-2018 at 01:35 PM.
    The enemy of my enemy may be worse than my enemy.

    I do not suffer from Trump Rearrangement Syndrome. Sorry if that triggers you.

  32. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti-Neocon View Post
    Matt Collins is DEEP STATE.



    Anyone not scared yet?

    What are "your goals"? They sure aren't mine so don't say "our" like a collectivist. Apparently defending the 4th Amendment doesn't seem to be one of your "our goals" though.

    I also remember you posting a picture essentially glorifying the image of King Trump.

    Why is it that you seem to gravitate authoritarianism and put down liberty?

    Who's the real snake in the grass?
    Utter garbage, I support the 4thA and said many times I wanted someone better than Kavanaugh, the only times I posted Trump praising images were when he did good things and I never "put down liberty".

    Matt has made it his mission in life to destroy the best Senator we have who has done more for liberty than Matt ever will over disagreements about strategy, he is the snake in the grass.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  33. #119

    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Matt has made it his mission in life to destroy the best Senator we have
    He used to be the best Senator we had, now he seems to be more and more just like the rest of them.
    __________________________________________________ ________________
    "A politician will do almost anything to keep their job, even become a patriot" - Hearst

  34. #120

    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Collins View Post
    He used to be the best Senator we had, now he seems to be more and more just like the rest of them.
    Not anywhere near "the rest of them." By any litmus.



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