View Poll Results: Which is more important?

Voters
28. You may not vote on this poll
  • The Guilty Be Punished

    3 10.71%
  • The Innocent Not Be Punished

    25 89.29%
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Thread: Which is more important?

  1. #1

    Which is more important?

    Well?
    Last edited by osan; 10-09-2018 at 03:46 AM.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Pray for reset.




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  3. #2
    Third option, Its okay if the government executes the wrong people, as long as the government is strong and stable.

    - Chinese attitude.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't even a thing nor are capital gains taxes
    Constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  4. #3
    I voted

    Guilty should be punished. If "innocent" people get convicted its probably because they were of low moral character to begin with, e.g. drug users or anarchists
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  5. #4
    In what context? In the general universe, the guilty needs to burn slowly, considering how much brazen evil is at work.
    ďForce the normies into taking sides. At the moment they are just like "meh, I am minding my own business" retreating culturally into their private bubbles and "safe-spaces" since they don't understand what is going on. When the actual "us vs them" starts, they will be forced to fight or they'll die.Ē - Anonymous Poster

  6. #5
    It's already codified in our law as Beyond a Reasonable Doubt.

  7. #6
    There must be a balance but that balance should lean towards the protection of the innocent.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    There must be a balance but that balance should lean towards the protection of the innocent.
    "balance"

    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    "balance"

    That is the balance.

    He didn't say it is better for 1,000,000 guilty men to go free.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That is the balance.

    He didn't say it is better for 1,000,000 guilty men to go free.
    "Sorry, SS... I know you didn't kill that girl, but we've already let 99 guilty men escape. So, we have to kill you. Thank you for your understanding."
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    "Sorry, SS... I know you didn't kill that girl, but we've already let 99 guilty men escape. So, we have to kill you. Thank you for your understanding."
    Since men are not omniscient then it is possible under any set of legal standards that a few innocent men will be mistakenly punished.

    That doesn't mean that we should punish nobody for anything ever.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    "Sorry, SS... I know you didn't kill that girl, but we've already let 99 guilty men escape. So, we have to kill you. Thank you for your understanding."
    Progressive strategy:

    1. Set up non-achievable goals. (e.g eliminate crime)
    2. Remain forever committed to achieving them.
    3. Blow through the ever increasing budgets.
    4. Profit?

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    There must be a balance but that balance should lean towards the protection of the innocent.
    "Balance"? What does that mean?

    Is it OK to send a single innocent man to a cell or the gallows for the sake of "getting" the bad guys?

    Where is that line to be drawn? How many innocents, proportionally speaking, constitute "acceptable losses" for the sake of "balance"?

    That's some right dangerous speak you've written there. Please elaborate, because as things stand I see nothing good coming of this notion of "balance".
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Pray for reset.


  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Progressive strategy:

    1. Set up non-achievable goals. (e.g eliminate crime)
    2. Remain forever committed to achieving them.
    3. Blow through the ever increasing budgets.
    4. Profit?

    You negleted step 3a: '?'

    Perhaps this will help:

    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Pray for reset.


  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Since men are not omniscient then it is possible under any set of legal standards that a few innocent men will be mistakenly punished.

    That doesn't mean that we should punish nobody for anything ever.

    False dichotomy.

    Other possibilities exist.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Pray for reset.


  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    "Balance"? What does that mean?

    Is it OK to send a single innocent man to a cell or the gallows for the sake of "getting" the bad guys?

    Where is that line to be drawn? How many innocents, proportionally speaking, constitute "acceptable losses" for the sake of "balance"?

    That's some right dangerous speak you've written there. Please elaborate, because as things stand I see nothing good coming of this notion of "balance".
    Man is not capable of perfection, we must do our absolute best to ensure that the innocent are protected without abandoning any attempt to punish the guilty.

    The old saying is that we must let 100 guilty men go free that not 1 innocent man be punished NOT that we must let 1,000,000 guilty men go free let alone ALL guilty men go free.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    False dichotomy.

    Other possibilities exist.
    I'm not creating a dichotomy, I'm saying that somewhere between punishing everyone who might be guilty without caring to protect the innocent and punishing nobody for fear of ever accidentally punishing 1 innocent man out of 1,000,000 there is a correct balance point.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That is the balance.

    He didn't say it is better for 1,000,000 guilty men to go free.
    It would appear you have missed the point, which would be precisely the same even had he said "one million" or "ten googolplexes". If you are not familiar with "googol", see wikipedia for the skinny.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Pray for reset.


  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I'm not creating a dichotomy, I'm saying that somewhere between punishing everyone who might be guilty without caring to protect the innocent and punishing nobody for fear of ever accidentally punishing 1 innocent man out of 1,000,000 there is a correct balance point.
    And I asked where, exactly, is that point? What's the precise integer that tells us it is acceptable that we imprison, fine, execute, or otherwise damage that many innocent men?

    Second question: how does the notion of "acceptable losses" accord with that of freedom, and which is more important?

    Finally, will you be first to step up and fall upon your sword for the sake of "balance", that another innocent not be called upon to pay for a crime which he had not committed?
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Pray for reset.


  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    It would appear you have missed the point, which would be precisely the same even had he said "one million" or "ten googolplexes". If you are not familiar with "googol", see wikipedia for the skinny.
    I don't understand, tell me how you are going to ensure that not a single innocent man is ever punished accidentally without being omniscient.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Man is not capable of perfection, we must do our absolute best to ensure that the innocent are protected without abandoning any attempt to punish the guilty.
    Who says?

    Seriously? Who says that this is so? Upon what objectively provable basis do you make the assertion?

    The old saying is that we must let 100 guilty men go free that not 1 innocent man be punished NOT that we must let 1,000,000 guilty men go free let alone ALL guilty men go free.
    The precise number is irrelevant to the underlying point that we NOT punish the innocent.
    Last edited by osan; 10-10-2018 at 02:36 PM.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Pray for reset.


  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    And I asked where, exactly, is that point? What's the precise integer that tells us it is acceptable that we imprison, fine, execute, or otherwise damage that many innocent men?

    Second question: how does the notion of "acceptable losses" accord with that of freedom, and which is more important?

    Finally, will you be first to step up and fall upon your sword for the sake of "balance", that another innocent not be called upon to pay for a crime which he had not committed?
    Whatever odds are created by doing everything humanly possible to avoid punishing the innocent without giving up all attempts to punish the guilty, I am willing to suffer those odds because they are better than the odds of me being seriously damaged in a society that makes no attempt to punish the guilty.

    Life is full of dangers and it is not possible to eliminate them all.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post

    Who says?

    Seriously? Who says that this is so? Upon what objectively provable basis do you make the assertion?
    Life says, history says, logic says, not only can circumstances conspire to make an innocent man appear guilty but evil men can do so deliberately.

    Prove me wrong, explain how perfection can be achieved without omniscience.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't understand, tell me how you are going to ensure that not a single innocent man is ever punished accidentally without being omniscient.
    If we are to retain courts, the propriety of which is questionable on its best day, we can begin by eliminating the "reasonable man" standard. Why? Because there is no objective definition of the term. It is legal bullshittery of the first order, concocted by the very same courts too lazy, inept, and thereby corrupted to do their jobs competently and honestly.

    The fact is that "reasonable man" is a meaningless term, but it plays well in the minds of lesser intellects, such as those who coined it. It has been employed to absolve the courts of a prosecutor's responsibility to PROVE their cases. If "reasonable doubt" is to be used as a term, and I have no problem with the words in themselves, it must perforce be given a rigorous definition to which prosecutors are to be sternly held in pursuit of their vocational duties.

    There can be no $#@!ing around where such matters are concerned; not if we are to take seriously the sovereignty of the individual. Otherwise, one's talk of "freedom" and "rights" is naught but hot air, devoid of any substance.

    Men are either free or they are something else.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Pray for reset.


  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    If we are to retain courts, the propriety of which is questionable on its best day, we can begin by eliminating the "reasonable man" standard. Why? Because there is no objective definition of the term. It is legal bullshittery of the first order, concocted by the very same courts too lazy, inept, and thereby corrupted to do their jobs competently and honestly.

    The fact is that "reasonable man" is a meaningless term, but it plays well in the minds of lesser intellects, such as those who coined it. It has been employed to absolve the courts of a prosecutor's responsibility to PROVE their cases. If "reasonable doubt" is to be used as a term, and I have no problem with the words in themselves, it must perforce be given a rigorous definition to which prosecutors are to be sternly held in pursuit of their vocational duties.

    There can be no $#@!ing around where such matters are concerned; not if we are to take seriously the sovereignty of the individual. Otherwise, one's talk of "freedom" and "rights" is naught but hot air, devoid of any substance.

    Men are either free or they are something else.
    I am quite happy to agree to a tightening of the legal standards of proof but that will not eliminate all erroneous convictions, it will shift the odds in favor of the defendent which I have said all along was how things should be.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Life says, history says, logic says, not only can circumstances conspire to make an innocent man appear guilty but evil men can do so deliberately.
    Nothing you have written here is objectively demonstrative of your claims.

    Prove me wrong, explain how perfection can be achieved without omniscience.
    That is already done. Your assertions fail prima facie when viewed through the corrective lens of "freedom" and the "inherent, fundamental rights" of the individual. To apprehend, try, and convict an innocent man is by definition felonious. Innocent men hold every right to kill anyone and everyone attempting to bring him to injustice, of which false justice is the ultimate case.

    If you actually believe in the rights of men, then you cannot accept that ANY man is obliged to go quietly into the pitch black night of injustice, just because men with fancy titles and hats say so.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Pray for reset.


  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I am quite happy to agree to a tightening of the legal standards of proof but that will not eliminate all erroneous convictions, it will shift the odds in favor of the defendent which I have said all along was how things should be.

    You have thus far failed to answer the question I posed twice and now for the third time: what integer number expressing the quantity of individuals for which it is acceptable to sacrifice as losses for the sake of making sure the bad guys buy the pony of justice?

    Let us put it as a standard rate figure: how many per 100K known crimes may be sacrificed in terms of life, limb, and liberty for the sake of serving up justice to actual criminals?
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Pray for reset.


  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    You have thus far failed to answer the question I posed twice and now for the third time: what integer number expressing the quantity of individuals for which it is acceptable to sacrifice as losses for the sake of making sure the bad guys buy the pony of justice?

    Let us put it as a standard rate figure: how many per 100K known crimes may be sacrificed in terms of life, limb, and liberty for the sake of serving up justice to actual criminals?
    I don't have a number, I told you that it is whatever number is created by doing everything possible to avoid punishing an innocent man other than giving up all attempts to punish the guilty.

    You proposed reforms which I agreed to, would you actually agree to a system run as you described or are you insisting that we abandon any system?
    Or are you trying to claim that the reforms you suggested will achieve perfection?
    Last edited by Swordsmyth; 10-10-2018 at 02:28 AM.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I don't have a number, I told you that it is whatever number is created by doing everything possible to avoid punishing an innocent man other than giving up all attempts to punish the guilty.

    You proposed reforms which I agreed to, would you actually agree to a system run as you described or are you insisting that we abandon any system?
    Or are you trying to claim that the reforms you suggested will achieve perfection?
    My normative response is to abandon such systems precisely because they cannot guarantee justice.

    Positively speaking, abandonment is not going to happen because people are corrupt, wanting things that cannot be delivered. Therefore, the likely practical path is to reform what is a deeply flawed system of so-called "justice".
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Pray for reset.


  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    I voted

    Guilty should be punished. If "innocent" people get convicted its probably because they were of low moral character to begin with, e.g. drug users or anarchists
    Yep...and we all know that they probably had done something previously that went unpunished. You know...if someone get's caught doing one thing then there's probably 10 other things they didn't get caught doing.
    Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect - Mark Twain

  34. #30
    Great job so far guys! Some of you sound like members of the "lesser intellect" group however this should not stop us from going to the next exercise where we will be discussing the minimum IQ required to vote.

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