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Thread: Kinesis

  1. #1

    Kinesis

    I'd like to introduce kinesis to the discussion

    Kinesis is a precious metals based monetary system which will go live on the 1st March 2019.

    Since Kinesis uses blockchain, Kinesis coins tend to be labeled as cryptocurrencies. Kinesis stresses that that's not the case: "By definition, Kinesis is not a cryptocurrency. It is a precious metal title of ownershipt on the blockchain."
    That's why I chose this section instead of the Bitcoin/Cryptocurrencies one.
    Since Kinesis aims to build up a new monetary system, a better place for this thread could maybe be in the Economy & Markets section, I don't know.

    Since Kinesis offers a yield in order to incentivize the use of the coins, "Gold doesn't carry any yield", the common argument for favoring investing in bonds or bank deposits vs. precious metal won't be true anymore after Kinesis will go live.

    For more information
    https://kinesis.money/en/



    Last edited by Paul799; 10-08-2018 at 11:03 AM.



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  3. #2
    Who are the major stakeholders in this blockchain?

  4. #3
    So can you trade your digital coins for gold?

    Who holds the title to all the gold?

    Do they have the total value of the gold held insured in case it is stolen? What if it is stolen by the govt?
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  5. #4
    I don't know timo
    Probably, since kinesis is born out of the Allocated Bullion Exchange (https://abx.com), as you can read somewhere on their homepage, I guess they are Kinesis major stakeholders, but it is just guessing

  6. #5
    danno,
    a) yes, you can ask for delivery of the precious metals represented by your kinesis coins
    b) the owners of the coins
    c1) insured, yes.
    c2) I don't know of any specific insurance against governmental stealing


    Please note, I'm trying to answer your questions the best I can, but I'm neither a kinesis representative nor a kinesis expert

  7. #6
    As I said, Kinesis was born out of the Allocated Bullion Exchange.
    Kinesis and ABX share basically the same management.
    The ABX is an institutional marketplace set up in 2011 for the trade of physical precious metals. Through the ABX, physical precious metals participants are able trade, deliver or store physical precious metal in 7 locations ('trading hubs') around the world: Zurich, London, NY, Singapore, Hong Kong, Dubai and Sydney.

    It is the ABX which is responsible for quality, storage and audits of the precious metals represented by the Kinesis coins.
    You can find their "Quality Assurance Framework", with, among others, a list of their Good Delivery Refiners, here: https://www.abx.com/d/QualityAssuranceFramework.pdf
    In this document you'll find also the reference framework regulating inspections and audits.

    Finally, ABX stores the bullion in an allocated way, "with individual holdings allocated through a Holding Identification Number (HIN) system. Each HIN, which can be used to identify a sub-account of a Member or a Private Client ... holds direct full legal title to all bullion purchased."
    https://abx.com/technology-services/storage-logistics/

    All this is of paramount importance because the whole Kinesis system depends on the confidence that the metals are indeed there backing the Kinesis currencies

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Who are the major stakeholders in this blockchain?
    I went to the ABX website and in the section Membership I found that ABX differentiates between:
    a) Full Members (e.g. Large Wholesale Bullion Brokers/Dealers, Large Financial Brokers/Dealers, Banks, Mining Producers, Refiners)

    b) Associate Members (e.g. Stockbrokers, Wealth managers, Accountancy firms, Insurance brokers)

    c) Proprietary Trading Members (e.g. Proprietary Trading Firms, Managed/Mutual Funds, Sovereign Funds, Hedge Funds, Exchange Traded Funds (ETFs), Investment Corporations, Institutional Superannuation/Pension Funds, Institutional Bullion Traders, Central Banks)

    https://abx.com/membership/proprietary-trading-members/


    Probably among Kinesis major stakeholders are some of the current ABX Members


  9. #8
    Here you can find Kinesis Executive, Operations, Development and Advisory Team
    https://kinesiscoins.com/kinesis-team/

    As I said, I don't know who the major stakeholder are, this kind of information is not public, but I guess among Kinesis major stakeholder is the Coughlin family, represented by Kinesis CEO (son) and CFO (father)




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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul799 View Post
    Here you can find Kinesis Executive, Operations, Development and Advisory Team
    https://kinesiscoins.com/kinesis-team/

    As I said, I don't know who the major stakeholder are, this kind of information is not public, but I guess among Kinesis major stakeholder is the Coughlin family, represented by Kinesis CEO (son) and CFO (father)

    CEO and CFO are related?

  12. #10
    I think the Ron Paul Forums are the right place to discuss this story, because Kinesis is all about sound money.
    I picked up some paragraphs from articles about kinesis, so what follows is just a compilation of quotes.
    My English-skills don't allow me to put down something that nice



    After the gold standard that once defined the value of currencies was abandoned in the 20th century, the monetary system became dependent on central banking policies and political instability.

    Against this backdrop, the evolution of blockchain and cryptocurrencies opened up new opportunities to ensure decentralisation and stability. However, current blockchain payment systems and their cryptocurrencies have suffered from severe price volatility, limiting their holder’s desire to be used as tender: four years of volatility in the stock market can be covered in a month of pricing movements in the cryptocurrency markets.
    A large part of this is owing to the cryptocurrencies' lack of intrinsic value.
    Cryptocurrencies are merely pieces of digital information subject to the whims of a volatile market.

    With Kinesis, a new gold standard is being developed using the latest blockchain technology to digitize the most precious of all commodities. Kinesis is a monetary system that combines the age-old stability of gold and silver with the efficiency of transactions on the blockchain.
    With cryptocurrencies currently overwhelmed by speculation and volatility, a crypto that is based 1:1 with gold and silver deposits will bring stability to the coin, promoting its use as a functioning currency rather than just an investment to hold or trade.

    An essential feature of Kinesis will be its yield system. Unlike any other cryptocurrency, Kinesis gives yield to precious metals, incentivizing their use and velocity by attaching multiple types of yield for varying degrees of passive or active participation. „Gold doesn’t offer any yield“ won’t be true any more.
    In offering a yield, the Kinesis system is just passing on a part of the transaction fees accumulated whenever the currencies are sent, spent or traded.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    CEO and CFO are related?
    Yes timo, more or less in the same way in which Ron and Rand are related

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul799 View Post
    Yes timo, more or less in the same way in which Ron and Rand are related
    It's an ERC20 coin running on Ethereum? If so this is then limited to about 10 transactions a second. Also after cryptokitties brought the entire ETH network to a crawl and raised the the gas price of ETH up to over $18 for awhile it makes it questionable that this can be used as a functioning currency for everyday usage.
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  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by kpitcher View Post
    It's an ERC20 coin running on Ethereum? If so this is then limited to about 10 transactions a second. Also after cryptokitties brought the entire ETH network to a crawl and raised the the gas price of ETH up to over $18 for awhile it makes it questionable that this can be used as a functioning currency for everyday usage.
    Good observation

    "Following a number of prototypes and proof of concept builds, the Kinesis team determined that the most effective and fit-for-purpose selection for a blockchain network for the kinesis currency suite was to use the Stellar network forked to form a bespoke blockchain network.
    There was one defining objective that needed to be met with this choice, and this is the ability for Kinesis currencies to function as the high velocity, globally used currencies that form the basis for the Monetary System that Kinesis is pioneering.
    Stellar met these primary needs in a number of ways, both technical and algorithmic, but at the core of the decision lies 3 overarching reasons.


    1. The speed of the Stellar network:
    For a currency platform to support the high turnaround of coins needed for it to function effectively and at the velocity projected for Kinesis suite of currencies, the speed of the blockchain network is a critical factor. The speed of networks is typically described in the number of transactions that the blockchain network can process per second.


    In this regard there have been a number of closely regulated tests performed on a number of blockchain networks. The outcomes of these give a good idea of the comparative average estimated speeds of the networks under load.
    The results of these tests place Stellar at the forefront of network speed, outstripping competitive networks not just marginally but by orders of magnitude.


    In an interview with the blockchain-focused podcast Epicenter, Stellar founder Jed McCaleb suggested ~4000 transaction per second was within the capabilities of the Stellar network.

    Following a number of experiments with stellar networks on various scaled hardware, the outcome of estimated speeds was between 3000 and 4000 transactions per second. At this stage this remains an estimate but with higher speeds anticipated.

    Compare these numbers to those obtained through experiments of competitor networks:

    · Bitcoin’s 3.3 to 7 transactions per second
    · Ethereum’s average of 15 transactions per second
    · VISA’s 1,736 average transactions per second at current volumes and 24,000 transactions per second actual capacity

    These figures will make it clear why Stellar was the top choice for the Kinesis blockchain technology and the ability for the fork of this network to cater to the high velocity of a fully fledged currency.


    https://medium.com/@kinesis/why-the-kinesis-blockchain-network-is-forked-from-stellar-9ca099ffaa53

    I won't pretend to understand what I just copied & pasted
    Last edited by Paul799; 10-17-2018 at 03:31 AM.

  16. #14
    There are the Kinesis Velocity Tokens (KVT) and the Kinesis coins (k-coins).
    The Kinesis currencies, which will be used to buy goods and transfer funds, are the K-coins (KAG and KAU), whose ICO (Initial Coins Offering) is planned for March 1, 2019.

    The KVT's are ER20.
    They are the means to raise Kinesis start capital.
    The public ITO (Initial Token Offering) started September 9, 2018, and will end November 12, 2018.
    Kinesis minimum goal as start capital was $15M, until now, selling KVT's, Kinesis raised almost 60M, goal is around $200M.
    KVT's are not meant to be used to buy goods or transfer funds.



    On a related issue, on September 27, 2018, Kinesis has signed an MOU with Hyperion Exchange, a SEC-regulated security token exchange

    "Hyperion Exchange is a leading exchange for security tokens in North America. It gives investors the chance to trade digital security tokens using blockchain technology, enabling trades to complete more efficiently and at lower cost than on traditional stock markets.
    The dual purpose of the MOU is to list the Kinesis Velocity Token (KVT) on the Hyperion Exchange, as well as making the Kinesis gold and silver-based digital currencies available as 'stablecoins' on the Hyperion Exchange.
    The Hyperion Exchange is regulated by the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC), the US Financial Industry Regulatory Authority and the non-profit Securities Investor Protection Corporation.

    Michael Zavet, CEO of Hyperion Exchange, comments: "Hyperion is a unique exchange that lists securities tokens, financial securities backed by tangible physical assets, on the blockchain. At Hyperion, we are committed to ensuring best practice in regulatory compliance, listing tokens only after comprehensive verification checks."

    https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/sec-regulated-hyperion-exchange-signs-mou-to-list-bullion-backed-kinesis-money-stable-coin-825950436.html

    Last edited by Paul799; 10-17-2018 at 03:34 AM.

  17. #15
    How much gold do they own to back up their currency? Where is it stored? They sound more like a multi-level marketing pyramid scheme where you get money by getting more people to sign up.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 10-17-2018 at 10:54 AM.
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  18. #16
    @Zippy,
    "How much gold do they own to back up their currency?"
    At the moment zilk, I guess.
    Precious metals will be acquired and stored progressively as K-coins get minted. That’s what the relation K-coins:PM=1:1 means.
    As long as there are no K-coins, there are no PM either.
    As I said, the ICO is planned for March 1, 2019.

    That said, it is possible that Kinesis will start storing PM in preparation for the ICO. Maybe they have already started storing, I don’t know.
    It is also possible that they don’t need to store anything: Kinesis, through the ABX, has partnered with large Wholesale Bullion Brokers/Dealers, Mining Producers, Refiners…, e.g. Finemetal Asia Ltd.
    https://abx.com/2017/11/01/allocated...e-trading-hub/
    These companies could act as liquidity providers, meaning they will deliver the metals as these are needed to back up the K-coins while the latter get minted.
    I’m just speculating


    One last remark about the way you formulated your question, just to avoid misunderstandings.
    I can remember the discussion about the PM backed ETF’s like SLV etc., their legal framework is so complicated that it’s not clear who ultimately the owner of the bars is.
    Kinesis won’t own the metals backing up the K-coins.
    The owner of the metals are the owner of the K-coins.
    When you are spending your K-coins to buy yourself a creamy cappuccino, your are spending yours, not Kinesis gold.



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  20. #17
    @ Zippy,
    "Where is it stored?"

    The metals are deposited in the vaults of ABX partners. ABX doesn’t own vaults, as far as I know (I could be wrong)

    https://www.abx.com/d/QualityAssuranceFramework.pdf

    In this document points 11 and 12 are of particular importance.
    11 (Audit and Inspection) guarantees that the bars are there;
    12 (Approved Refiners) guarantees the quality of the bars.
    The refiners where ABX/Kinesis sources the metals from are listed in the LMBA Good Delivery Lists.
    They are refiners tested and approved by the LMBA.
    The LMBA (London Metals Bullion Association) is worldwide the most important institution as far as precious metals physical trade is concerned, because London until recently was the most important trading hub for PM physical trade (now Shanghai).



  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul799 View Post
    @Zippy,
    "How much gold do they own to back up their currency?"
    At the moment zilk, I guess.
    Precious metals will be acquired and stored progressively as K-coins get minted. That’s what the relation K-coins:PM=1:1 means.
    As long as there are no K-coins, there are no PM either.
    As I said, the ICO is planned for March 1, 2019.

    That said, it is possible that Kinesis will start storing PM in preparation for the ICO. Maybe they have already started storing, I don’t know.
    It is also possible that they don’t need to store anything: Kinesis, through the ABX, has partnered with large Wholesale Bullion Brokers/Dealers, Mining Producers, Refiners…, e.g. Finemetal Asia Ltd.
    https://abx.com/2017/11/01/allocated...e-trading-hub/
    These companies could act as liquidity providers, meaning they will deliver the metals as these are needed to back up the K-coins while the latter get minted.
    I’m just speculating


    One last remark about the way you formulated your question, just to avoid misunderstandings.
    I can remember the discussion about the PM backed ETF’s like SLV etc., their legal framework is so complicated that it’s not clear who ultimately the owner of the bars is.
    Kinesis won’t own the metals backing up the K-coins.
    The owner of the metals are the owner of the K-coins.
    When you are spending your K-coins to buy yourself a creamy cappuccino, your are spending yours, not Kinesis gold.
    So their tokens have no gold to back them. I won't be able to exchange my tokens for gold with them since they don't have any gold on hand to do so. The dollar was once gold backed because the government had gold you could exchange your paper dollars for. Not really a metal backed currency.

    a crypto that is based 1:1 with gold and silver deposits
    Yet they don't seem to have any metal deposits? Or is the customer expected to buy gold and deposit it with them? If so, why would I give them my gold and silver so I can use bitcoins?
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 10-18-2018 at 12:47 PM.
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  22. #19
    https://www.investopedia.com/news/80...-scams-report/

    80% of ICOs Are Scams: Report

    A recent study, based on publicly available information and sources, claims that nearly 80 percent of the initial coin offerings (ICO) are scams, and only a meager 8 percent of the floated ICOs manage to reach the trading stage on the various cryptocurrency exchanges.

    The New York-based Satis Group LLC, a premier ICO advisory company which also works as a digital asset focused investment bank, conducted the study based on the publicly available sources.

    Study of ICOs
    The study was performed by picking the ICOs that had a minimum market cap of $50M and were expected to go into active trading. These ICOs were then categorized into six different groups, namely, Scam, Failed, Gone Dead, Dwindling, Promising, and Successful.

    The first three groups formed the part of ICOs that formed the “Failed to List” group – that is, they failed to list and trade at all. The last three groups formed the part of ICOs that can be called “Succeeded to List” as they went on to list and trade on the designated virtual currency exchanges, though with different final outcomes post listing.

    The study defines Scam ICOs as those that expressed usual availability like any standard ICO with no apparent red flags during the normal promotional activities. However, they turned out to be scams. The Failed ICOs were those which managed to raise full/partial funding during the ICO process, but they did not complete the entire process and were abandoned mid-way, and/or refunded the investors’ money due to inadequate ICO funding. The Gone Dead also managed to raise money as required through the standard ICO process, but failed to list on the exchanges for the necessary trading due to other challenges and complexities. (See also, $9 Million Lost Each Day In Cryptocurrency Scams.)

    Among the later group of three that got listed on the exchanges, the Dwindling ICOs are defined as those that “had one or less of the following success criteria: deployment (in test/beta, at minimum) of a chain/distributed ledger (in the case of a base-layer protocol) or product/platform (in the case of an app/utility token), had a transparent project roadmap posted on their website, and had Github code contribution activity in a surrounding three-month period,” which they refer to as Success Criteria. Promising, then, would have an ICO encompassing two of the criteria, and finally Successful would, of course, have all criteria.

    The study results reveal that of the whole pie, a whopping 81 percent of the ICOs turned out to be scams. Another 6 percent fell into the Failed category, and 5 percent had Gone Dead, taking the total for “Failure to List” group to 92 percent. (For more, see What's a Cryptocurrency Exit Scam? How Do You Spot One.)

    I would stay away.
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    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  23. #20
    https://www.zdnet.com/article/here-a...raudulent-ico/

    These are the warning signs of a fraudulent ICO

    <snip>

    It might sound odd, but if an ICO website is spotless and looks extremely professional, this may indicate a scam.

    Often, fraudsters will spend a small fortune on a professional-looking website and marketing materials such as a white paper, but this money is spent purely to promote trust in would-be investors.
    If a company website, whitepaper, or project descriptions are also full of nothing more than fluff, buzzwords, and portray a lack of substance, this is a clear warning sign that all may not be as it seems.
    In addition, you should be aware that some fraudsters may open their own forum accounts and run social media campaigns in order to promote discussion, increase the exposure of a fake ICO, and make a project appear legitimate.

    and from their website:

    Kinesis Cayman is a registered company in the Cayman Islands. Registered address: C/O Stuarts Corporate Services , 36A Dr. Roy’s Drive, Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands, KY1-1104 Company No: 338455

    The information on this site is not directed at residents of the United States and is not intended for distribution to, or use by, any person in any country or jurisdiction where such distribution or use would be contrary to local law or regulation.
    https://kinesis.money/en/referrals/

    Their directors are also the same directors as ABX- their "metals source". https://abx.com/about/leadership/
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 10-18-2018 at 01:33 PM.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

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