Deep State as the natural state of the State.

[timosman]

Poll attached.

[Swordsmyth]

The oligarchs ye have always with you.

[heavenlyboy34]

A-yup. Read the "Politics Of Obedience: Discourse On Voluntary Servitude". (People like poor Swordsmyth, et al are exactly the poor willing serfs Boetie writes about in there, btw)

[AuH20]

The Deep State ensures it's own destruction because it's appetite can never be fulfilled.

[TheTexan]

I voted.

[Swordsmyth]

A-yup. Read the "Politics Of Obedience: Discourse On Voluntary Servitude". (People like poor Swordsmyth, et al are exactly the poor willing serfs Boetie writes about in there, btw)

[RonZeplin]

[Schifference]

What exactly is the deep state? Is that like the dark web? Is it like a black market? Are we suggesting that the people voted in power are like puppets and cannot move without some entity moving the strings?

[Aratus]

YES assumes parasites or symbionts innately must exist.
NO assumes on occasion, they do not arise or never are.

[r3volution 3.0]

The slogan "deep state" is merely a device used by Trump supporters to excuse Trump's bad behavior.

Slogans aside, it's obviously true that various "rent-seeking" factions control the state, and that this is a feature of this form of government.

[Swordsmyth]

The slogan "deep state" is merely a device used by Trump supporters to excuse Trump's bad behavior.

Slogans aside, it's obviously true that various "rent-seeking" factions control the state, and that this is a feature of this form of government.

Or any form of government, you can limit it somewhat but you can't eliminate it anymore than you can eliminate gravity.

[r3volution 3.0]

Or any form of government, you can limit it somewhat but you can't eliminate it anymore than you can eliminate gravity.

You can't eliminate gravity, true, but some structures are noticeably less resistant to it than others.

[nobody's_hero]

What exactly is the deep state? Is that like the dark web? Is it like a black market? Are we suggesting that the people voted in power are like puppets and cannot move without some entity moving the strings?

Is that a question posed out of legitimate curiosity or do I sense some sarcasm there?

Because honestly if you are still in doubt, you haven't been paying much attention.

[PierzStyx]

A-yup. Read the "Politics Of Obedience: Discourse On Voluntary Servitude". (People like poor Swordsmyth, et al are exactly the poor willing serfs Boetie writes about in there, btw)

The Servile State, written by Hillarie Belloch in 1912, is another good one. A little dry, but solid on his projection of what the developing Progressive state would eventually lead to.

[PierzStyx]

What exactly is the deep state? Is that like the dark web? Is it like a black market? Are we suggesting that the people voted in power are like puppets and cannot move without some entity moving the strings?

I think on some level most people don't understand the Deep State. They imagine it is some secret, unknown force controlling the nation from behind the curtain. It isn't. The Deep State isn't a secret. It is that portion of the government that controls all the vital functions of the state but which are completely unelected. They're mostly either appointed positions or seniority based positions, such as the Joint Chiefs of Staff and other members of the national security apparatus. And the same people tend to hold those positions regardless of who the party is that controls the offices of state like the Presidency. They then direct information and policy through the elected offices, controlling what they do through what they know.

An easy and excellent read on this is "National Security and Double Government," by Michael Glennon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...ble_Government

[Swordsmyth]

You can't eliminate gravity, true, but some structures are noticeably less resistant to it than others.

True, but we disagree as to which structure is most resistant.

[r3volution 3.0]

True, but we disagree as to which structure is most resistant.

So we do.

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

A "deep state" is present when there has been a serious error in statecraft. No one who appears to have power should lack it and no one who has power should appear not to.

[r3volution 3.0]

No one who appears to have power should lack it and no one who has power should appear not to.

The major (perhaps only) issue is who actually has power.

I think there might be a problem with the formalist view, in that it conflates recognizing power structures with creating them.

[idiom]

It has nothing to do with a "state" as such. Humanity has a lot of inertia, there are reactionaries, divergent agendas, etc everywhere.

Corporations have it, churches have it, families have it. Anywhere you try and change something there will be those who oppose the change and use their formal and informal power to oppose it.

[idiom]

A "deep state" is present when there has been a serious error in statecraft. No one who appears to have power should lack it and no one who has power should appear not to.

Righto and law is developed through floor speeches, all nice, rational, and transparent like.

[Swordsmyth]

A "deep state" is present when there has been a serious error in statecraft. No one who appears to have power should lack it and no one who has power should appear not to.

In theory perhaps but reality has never even come close to the theory.

[timosman]

In theory perhaps but reality has never even come close to the theory.

Why even make that argument?

[Swordsmyth]

Why even make that argument?

His or mine?

Practical reality should always be discussed.

[timosman]

His or mine?

Practical reality should always be discussed.

Sorry, I meant that:

No one who appears to have power should lack it and no one who has power should appear not to.

WTF?

[Swordsmyth]

Sorry, I meant that:



WTF?

It's a nice thought but life is far too complex for it to be possible, power comes in too many forms and derives from too many sources.

[timosman]

It's a nice thought but life is far too complex for it to be possible, power comes in too many forms and derives from too many sources.

Life of a sycophant is never easy. Who has the actual power?

[Swordsmyth]

Life of a sycophant is never easy. Who has the actual power?

Which is why they tend to bootlick everyone who might have it.

[timosman]

Which is why they tend to bootlick everyone who might have it.

This is something that always puzzled me. I was always thinking the people in power would prefer them to be more selective.

[Swordsmyth]

This is something that always puzzled me. I was always thinking the people in power would prefer them to be more selective.

That seems to vary, but they are usually safe as long as they make sure to pick the strong side in any visible divides and kick all the designated enemies.