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Thread: Fox News host, Tucker Carlson, advocates mob rule government

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Note the tense of those verbs. The rules are made by those who currently make the rules, not by those who at one time made the rules. ...it would be super if, once we had a moral government, they could magically bind their successors, but that isn't so. Jefferson is dead; he isn't doing anything. As do all rulers (when else would they make their decisions, before they came up...?) Yes, as I said, both democratic rulers and kings may require the cooperation of supporters to some extent. I'm not arguing that one does and one doesn't. The difference is, again, not between monarchy and democracy, but between either and constitutional government. There is no such thing as the latter. Constitutional democracy is democracy; constitutional oligarchy, oligarchy; constitutional monarchy, monarchy. The presence or absence of a piece of paper purporting to limit the decision-making of the ruler(s) does not in fact limit his/their decision-making. The decision-making of the ruler(s) is determined by his/their incentives.
    Your premise is wrong, it is quite possible to make decisions ahead of time, suppose a petition arrives at the palace from the citizens, the Prime minister can check the Constitution that he has committed to follow to find out what it says or he can check with the king he has committed to follow to find out what he says, there is no difference.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Your premise is wrong, it is quite possible to make decisions ahead of time, suppose a petition arrives at the palace from the citizens, the Prime minister can check the Constitution that he has committed to follow to find out what it says or he can check with the king he has committed to follow to find out what he says, there is no difference.
    I'm not sure what your point is.

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    I'm not sure what your point is.
    That the king and the Constitution are interchangeable.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That the king and the Constitution are interchangeable.
    Well, that's your conclusion, but I'm not seeing how you reached it.

    What does the timing of decisions have to do with it...?

    I must be dense. Break it down for me like I'm a small child.



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Well, that's your conclusion, but I'm not seeing how you reached it.

    What does the timing of decisions have to do with it...?

    I must be dense. Break it down for me like I'm a small child.
    The Ruler of the land is the entity whose decisions are submitted to by those who carry them out, if those who carry them out submit to decisions that have been pre-made in a constitution that is no different than if they submit to decisions that are made as they come up by a king except for the timing of the decisions.
    One way the Constitution is the ruler and the other way the king is the ruler.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The Ruler of the land is the entity whose decisions are submitted to by those who carry them out, if those who carry them out submit to decisions that have been pre-made in a constitution that is no different than if they submit to decisions that are made as they come up by a king except for the timing of the decisions.

    One way the Constitution is the ruler and the other way the king is the ruler.
    Ah, now I understand.

    Here's your problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Your premise is wrong, it is quite possible to make decisions ahead of time, suppose a petition arrives at the palace from the citizens, the Prime minister can check the Constitution that he has committed to follow to find out what it says or he can check with the king he has committed to follow to find out what he says, there is no difference.
    The difference is that, if the PM crosses the constitution, nothing happens (whereas, if he crosses the king, he gets removed, or worse).

    Note that, if you take what you say seriously, about the equivalence of responsibility to persons and papers, there would be no reason for democracy at all, would there be? Just install the Congress permanently and have a constitution to which they can be responsible (in lieu of voters), no?

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Ah, now I understand.

    Here's your problem.



    The difference is that, if the PM crosses the constitution, nothing happens (whereas, if he crosses the king, he gets removed, or worse).

    Note that, if you take what you say seriously, about the equivalence of responsibility to persons and papers, there would be no reason for democracy at all, would there be? Just install the Congress permanently and have a constitution to which they can be responsible (in lieu of voters), no?
    But that is only a problem because our current Constitution lacks an enforcement clause, unless you require your king to always be young and strong enough to kill or imprison the PM himself he will be reliant on the same security and judicial personnel to punish the PM that a Constitution could rely on.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    But that is only a problem because our current Constitution lacks an enforcement clause
    You mean a corner of the 8.5x11 sheet which comes to life, puts on a cape, and deals swiftly, but justly, with violators?

    unless you require your king to always be young and strong enough to kill or imprison the PM himself he will be reliant on the same security and judicial personnel to punish the PM that a Constitution could rely on.
    The king is in a position to control his subordinates in the same way as a President, or any other official vis a vis his subordinates.

    Constitutions have nothing to do with it in any case.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    You mean a corner of the 8.5x11 sheet which comes to life, puts on a cape, and deals swiftly, but justly, with violators?



    The king is in a position to control his subordinates in the same way as a President, or any other official vis a vis his subordinates.

    Constitutions have nothing to do with it in any case.
    So you are requiring your king to be young and strong and punish his PM personally?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    So you are requiring your king to be young and strong and punish his PM personally?
    What, like take him out back and spank him with a paddle...?

    No...

    I expect the king to be able to control his subordinates in the same way that any President/PM/etc does.

    ...this is to be contrasted with the utter inability of a piece of paper to control anybody.

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    What, like take him out back and spank him with a paddle...?

    No...

    I expect the king to be able to control his subordinates in the same way that any President/PM/etc does.

    ...this is to be contrasted with the utter inability of a piece of paper to control anybody.
    Then your king is relying on others to enforce his will, just think of a constitution as an old and frail king whose will is enforced by those same people.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Then your king is relying on others to enforce his will
    Yes, again, like any ruler of any kind for any form of government.

    just think of a constitution as an old and frail king whose will is enforced by those same people.
    ...except it is in fact a piece of paper and any action is actually carried out by people, not it.

    .................

    You never responded to this: any thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    Note that, if you take what you say seriously, about the equivalence of responsibility to persons and papers, there would be no reason for democracy at all, would there be? Just install the Congress [or king] permanently and have a constitution to which they can be responsible (in lieu of voters), no?
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 09-17-2018 at 07:36 PM.



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Yes, again, like any ruler of any kind for any form of government.



    ...except it is in fact a piece of paper and any action is actually carried out by people, not it.
    Just as you agree is the case with the king in your first sentence.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Just as you agree is the case with the king in your first sentence.
    In a monarchy, "action is actually carried out by people" (i.e. the king)?

    Well, yes, obviously: as, in a democracy, any action is actually carried out by the voters/representatives (contra a paper).

    ...as has been my point.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    In a monarchy, "action is actually carried out by people" (i.e. the king)?

    Well, yes, obviously: as, in a democracy, any action is actually carried out by the voters/representatives (contra a paper).

    ...as has been my point.

    And...?
    Not the king, that is what you just agreed to:

    Originally Posted by Swordsmyth

    Then your king is relying on others to enforce his will
    Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0

    Yes, again, like any ruler of any kind for any form of government.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Not the king, that is what you just agreed to:
    ...?

    We've been in agreement for half a dozen posts back and forth that no ruler rules alone, that all require some sort of cooperation.

    I don't know why you think this in any way refutes my point (that no paper, contra person, ever rules at all).

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    ...?

    We've been in agreement for half a dozen posts back and forth that no ruler rules alone, that all require some sort of cooperation.

    I don't know why you think this in any way refutes my point (that no paper, contra person, ever rules at all).
    Since the king relies on others who have committed to obey him to carry out his will and the constitution also relies on others who have committed to obey it to carry out its will please explain the difference.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Since the king relies on others who have committed to obey him to carry out his will and the constitution also relies on others who have committed to obey it to carry out its will please explain the difference.
    The king is a person capable of controlling his agents, as a President/PM is a person capable of controlling his agents.

    ...a person, mind you.

    The constitution, on the other hand, is a piece of paper (wood pulp, cotton, hemp, ...not sure) sitting in a drawer.

    It is an inanimate object. It does nothing.

    For emphasis:

    the constitution also relies on others
    The constitution relies on nothing, tries to do nothing, thinks nothing.

    It does not tell the disobedient minister/secretary that he's fired, nor does it select his replacement.

    On another note, I'd like a response to this (3rd time I've asked):

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    Note that, if you take what you say seriously, about the equivalence of responsibility to persons and papers, there would be no reason for democracy at all, would there be? Just install the Congress [or king] permanently and have a constitution to which they can be responsible (in lieu of voters), no?

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The king is a person capable of controlling his agents, as a President/PM is a person capable of controlling his agents.

    ...a person, mind you.

    The constitution, on the other hand, is a piece of paper (wood pulp, cotton, hemp, ...not sure) sitting in a drawer.

    It is an inanimate object. It does nothing.

    For emphasis:



    The constitution relies on nothing, tries to do nothing, thinks nothing.

    It does not tell the disobedient minister/secretary that he's fired, nor does it select his replacement.
    The Constitution can empower one or more persons to fire the offending government official and choose a replacement so unless you are going to expect your king to arrest or evict the offender personally there is no significant difference.


    On another note, I'd like a response to this (3rd time I've asked):




    Note that, if you take what you say seriously, about the equivalence of responsibility to persons and papers, there would be no reason for democracy at all, would there be? Just install the Congress [or king] permanently and have a constitution to which they can be responsible (in lieu of voters), no?

    Since a Constitution's drafters can't envision all necessary laws and decisions hundreds or even thousands of years in advance then an elected legislature/legislator is required in a Republic to make or change laws not foreseen by the founders within the limits imposed by the Constitution and a more difficult amendment process is advisable as well to provide the same functionality as a king in a monarchy.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The Constitution can empower one or more persons to fire the offending government official and choose a replacement
    ...and so those persons, not the piece of paper, rule.

    so unless you are going to expect your king to arrest or evict the offender personally there is no significant difference.
    "Personally" has nothing to do with it.

    The US Constitution authorizes the President to fire certain officials. He doesn't do it personally: and yet it is done.

    ...and the piece of paper certainly doesn't do it personally (it is not a person!).

    For instance, when Retard wishes to fire someone, he gives an order. If his supporters support him enough, that person will be fired.

    It is the same with Theresa May, or Charles I.

    Constitutions have nothing to do with it in any case, whatever the form of government.

    Since a Constitution's drafters can't envision all necessary laws and decisions hundreds or even thousands of years in advance then an elected legislature/legislator is required in a Republic to make or change laws not foreseen by the founders within the limits imposed by the Constitution and a more difficult amendment process is advisable as well to provide the same functionality as a king in a monarchy.
    Is that meant to be an answer to this?

    Note that, if you take what you say seriously, about the equivalence of responsibility to persons and papers, there would be no reason for democracy at all, would there be? Just install the Congress [or king] permanently and have a constitution to which they can be responsible (in lieu of voters), no?
    If so, you're rather missing the point.



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    ...and so those persons, not the piece of paper, rule.
    Not unless they are not committed to obey the constitution or unless you say that the persons the king relies on to carry out his will rule instead of him.



    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    "Personally" has nothing to do with it.

    The US Constitution authorizes the President to fire certain officials. He doesn't do it personally: and yet it is done.

    ...and the piece of paper certainly doesn't do it personally (it is not a person!).

    For instance, when Retard wishes to fire someone, he gives an order. If his supporters support him enough, that person will be fired.

    It is the same with Theresa May, or Charles I.

    Constitutions have nothing to do with it in any case, whatever the form of government.
    And if the constitution's supporters support it enough they will fire anyone who disobeys it, the fact that the constitution can't arrest or eject the offenders personally is equal to the fact that the king doesn't arrest or eject offenders personally.




    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Is that meat to be an answer to this?



    If so, you're rather missing the point.
    That would be a constitutional monarchy (which you have rejected in past discussions) and would still require the government officials to be loyal to the constitution in case the king violated it, a Republic gives the people a voice in the details of their government by allowing them to choose and replace one or more representatives to govern within constitutional restrictions.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #82
    Okay, @Swordsmyth, let's simplify things.

    Scenario #1 - there is an hereditary monarch, with a constitution saying that the king cannot do certain things.

    Scenario #2 - there is a popularly elected congress, with a constitution saying that they cannot do certain things.

    Per you, "the constitution rules" in both cases, so these governments are identical, or not?

    If not, why not?

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Okay, @Swordsmyth, let's simplify things.

    Scenario #1 - there is an hereditary monarch, with a constitution saying that the king cannot do certain things.

    Scenario #2 - there is a popularly elected congress, with a constitution saying that they cannot do certain things.

    Per you, "the constitution rules" in both cases, so these governments are identical, or not?

    If not, why not?
    In the first the people have no say in government at all, in the second they get to help determine the details.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    In the first the people have no say in government at all, in the second they get to help determine the details.
    The constitution doesn't rule in the second case?

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The constitution doesn't rule in the second case?
    It does but it can only rule on the issues that were anticipated and that were not left up to the people's representatives on purpose.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It does but it can only rule on the issues that were anticipated and that were not left up to the people's representatives on purpose.
    Oh..

    So, "the constitution rules" on certain issues in the second case.

    On which issues does the constitution rule or not in the first case?

  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Oh..

    So, "the constitution rules" on certain issues in the second case.

    On which issues does the constitution rule or not in the first case?
    Whichever issues are enshrined in it as opposed to those which are left to the king.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Whichever issues are enshrined in it as opposed to those which are leftto the king.
    So, in the second case (elected parliament), "the constitution rules" because...

    ...the people should be able to ignore it, for "details."

    ...but the constitution still rules, of course.

    I'm trying not to laugh (some centuries ago I'd have laughed, and all literate opinion would have laughed right along).



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  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    So, in the second case (elected parliament), "the constitution rules" because...

    ...the people should be able to ignore it, for "details."

    ...but the constitution still rules, of course.

    I'm trying not to laugh (some centuries ago I'd have laughed, and all literate opinion would have laughed right along).
    Nobody is allowed to ignore the constitution, it is merely silent on some issues, if you don't say anything and I don't do anything about it that is not me ignoring you.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Nobody is allowed to ignore the constitution
    And yet people do; virtually everything the government does is unconstitutional.

    So...

    ...in what sense then does it rule?

    it is merely silent on some issues, if you don't say anything and I don't do anything about it that is not me ignoring you.
    That silence is disapproval.

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