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Thread: Where anarchists can meet minarchists

  1. #1

    Where anarchists can meet minarchists

    I was reading this article in reason about the divisions between anarchists and minarchists. I think we all generally know how that goes, but here is a link:

    http://reason.com/archives/2018/09/0...n-anarchist-no

    I was out pondering this in the woods this weekend, and I was thinking the following about anarchists.

    If we all agree that we should follow the non-aggression principle, then I think what both minarchists and anarchists can agree on is that government violates this principle. As things stand, government is the chief violator of this principle in the world.

    However, we can also all probably agree it is not the only violator of the non-aggression principle. Individuals and gangs and other entities have been known to violate this as well.

    It seems to me, for the pure anarchist, you could reduce the size and scope of government to a point where the greater violator of the non-aggression principle in the world are individuals and other non-government entities.

    At that point, if you cannot erase violations of the non-aggression principle by individuals and other non-government entities, why struggle to stop this type of conduct in government before stopping it in individuals and non-government entities? At least government has the advantage of also providing a recourse against violators of the non-aggression principle?



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  3. #2
    Morally, anarchism/voluntaryism is the only way to go. If one is being honest and logical, you can't arrive at any other conclusion. That being said, I am all for using the tools available to move in that direction. Currently those tools are things like the LP, Minarchism, Agorism, education and advocacy. What I have a problem with is that people fail logical tests when advocating for the existence of a State that has any component of force/coercion. If a minarchy could exist as a purely voluntary society, I would not be opposed to it, idealogically...
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  4. #3
    It seems to me, for the pure anarchist, you could reduce the size and scope of government to a point where the greater violator of the non-aggression principle in the world are individuals and other non-government entities.


    I think most of us (I could be wrong) would be pleased to see this happen, unfortunately it doesn't seem to be going that direction.
    "The Patriarch"

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post

    Not going to happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    The man did not think clearly. It was almost as if he had brain cancer of something.

  5. #4
    How about voluntarily providing resources to help build something that somewhat resemble government institutions that are supposed to help uphold NAP?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    How about voluntarily providing resources to help build something that somewhat resemble government institutions that are supposed to help uphold NAP?
    Would they let us do that?
    "The Patriarch"

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post

    Not going to happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    The man did not think clearly. It was almost as if he had brain cancer of something.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    How about voluntarily providing resources to help build something that somewhat resemble government institutions that are supposed to help uphold NAP?
    It would become biased in favor of its donors and become corrupt and tyrannical.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #7
    The problem with anarchy is that corrupt individuals would create a government to aid their theft, the only way to prevent that is to create a government designed to be limited.

    Eventually any society will decay into tyranny unless the tendency is actively reversed from time to time but minarchy delays the process and increases the odds of periodic reversals.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It would become biased in favor of its donors and become corrupt and tyrannical.
    Compared to what?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Compared to what?
    Compared to an ordinary minarchy, the donor class would become an unofficial nobility and might eventually become a formal nobility.

    Just think about what would happen the first time a major donor lost a court case. (civil or criminal)
    They would stop donating and so might their allies and send the budget into a tailspin, if the court didn't anticipate such a move and cater to them then no future court would dare rule against any other donors, the original donor and any allies could even resume donations after a sufficient crisis period to take advantage of the "lesson" they demonstrated.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The problem with anarchy is that corrupt individuals would create a government to aid their theft, the only way to prevent that is to create a government designed to be limited.

    Eventually any society will decay into tyranny unless the tendency is actively reversed from time to time but minarchy delays the process and increases the odds of periodic reversals.
    That's it, it's just too much. You have to be a satirical account.
    "The Patriarch"

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post

    Not going to happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    The man did not think clearly. It was almost as if he had brain cancer of something.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    That's it, it's just too much. You have to be a satirical account.
    That is what I am beginning to think about you.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    That's it, it's just too much. You have to be a satirical account.

    I used to think he was a troll, but now I believe he's actually sincere. Unfortunately, all he really does here is regurgitate JBS talking points while lacking any real, mature, in-depth understanding of the topics he comments on.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    I used to think he was a troll, but now I believe he's actually sincere. Unfortunately, all he really does here is regurgitate JBS talking points while lacking any real, mature, in-depth understanding of the topics he comments on.
    Simple minds think everyone else is dubmerer than them.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    Morally, anarchism/voluntaryism is the only way to go. If one is being honest and logical, you can't arrive at any other conclusion.
    Is there a free market in the rules in tennis? You need one to set up the playing field, establish rules, and someone to enforce the rules. Once that is done you can do whatever you want within those constraints.

    All a government is doing is establishing rules of the game and enforcing penalties for breaking the rules. It isn't moral or immoral. It just is. Lack of rules and enforcement means chaos and suffering. It means tribalism and poverty.

    I try and try to read the explanations for voluntary government from different authors and I always get slightly dumber doing it.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Is there a free market in the rules in tennis? You need one to set up the playing field, establish rules, and someone to enforce the rules. Once that is done you can do whatever you want within those constraints.

    All a government is doing is establishing rules of the game and enforcing penalties for breaking the rules. It isn't moral or immoral. It just is. Lack of rules and enforcement means chaos and suffering. It means tribalism and poverty.

    I try and try to read the explanations for voluntary government from different authors and I always get slightly dumber doing it.
    So, life is like a tennis game?

    "The Patriarch"

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post

    Not going to happen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Schifference View Post
    The man did not think clearly. It was almost as if he had brain cancer of something.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Would they let us do that?
    Without government, who would build the government?
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe






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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    Without government, who would build the government?
    The same kind of people who built it the first time.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankindÖitís people I canít stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #18
    Anarchists, in my experience, frequently do not understand the minarchist position.

    For example:

    Quote Originally Posted by amartin315 View Post
    If we all agree that we should follow the non-aggression principle, then I think what both minarchists and anarchists can agree on is that government violates this principle. As things stand, government is the chief violator of this principle in the world.

    However, we can also all probably agree it is not the only violator of the non-aggression principle. Individuals and gangs and other entities have been known to violate this as well.
    The implication here is that there is a choice between the state and private aggressors.

    ...and boy aren't minarchists dumb for not making the right choice.

    But the minarchist critique is precisely that private aggressors, sans a state to check them, will simply become the state.

    Minarchists fully understand the moral arguments of anarchists (they are not complex), and agree with them, but recognize that they are moot.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 09-09-2018 at 07:42 PM.

  22. #19
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