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Thread: Frank the Red is changing the Lord's Prayer

  1. #1

    Exclamation Frank the Red is changing the Lord's Prayer

    Changes to Lord’s Prayer to Be Made Official in Italy

    https://www.breitbart.com/national-s...fficial-italy/

    14 Aug 2018711

    The Italian bishops conference announced Tuesday that changes to the Lord’s Prayer proposed by Pope Francis will take effect in Italy this November.

    Last December, Pope Francis proposed changing the text of the Lord’s Prayer, or “Our Father,” saying the current translations are flawed because they suggest that God could be the source of temptation.

    “This is not a good translation,” the pope said in an interview on Italian television, referring to the Italian text of the line: “Lead us not into temptation.”

    A better rendering of the petition would be: “Do not let me fall into temptation,” Francis said.

    “I am the one who falls, but God isn’t the one who throws me into temptation and then looks on to see how I fell. A father does not do this; a father helps us get up immediately,” he said.

    The new Italian text of the prayer will no longer read, “lead us not into temptation,” but “do not abandon us into temptation,” the Italian bishops said.

    The fourth century Latin Vulgate version of the Lord’s Prayer, which has been the point of reference for the Church’s translations into different local languages, reads “ne nos inducas in tentationem” or “lead us not into temptation.” The Latin text is attributed to Saint Jerome, who translated much of the Old Testament from Hebrew and the New Testament from Greek.

    A new French version of the prayer no longer uses the words “ne nous soumets pas à la tentation,” but has replaced them with “ne nous laisse pas entrer en tentation” (do not let us enter into temptation).

    “The fundamental idea is that God cannot lead us into temptation,” said the archbishop of Chieti, Bruno Forte, a theologian from the Italian bishops conference. “The expression must be understood in the correct way, also referred to by the Pope, that is, in the sense of ‘keeping us from doing evil,’ because God never abandons his own children, but always supports them with his infinite love.”
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11



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  3. #2
    "...18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. 20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen. "
    FLIP THOSE FLAGS, THE NATION IS IN DISTRESS!


    why I should worship the state (who apparently is the only party that can possess guns without question).
    The state's only purpose is to kill and control. Why do you worship it? - Sola_Fide

    Baptiste said.
    At which point will Americans realize that creating an unaccountable institution that is able to pass its liability on to tax-payers is immoral and attracts sociopaths?

  4. #3
    Frank should just stick to reigning in his pedo-priests.

  5. #4
    At least this time the words were changed and not meaning unlike the 1000s of other times the word of god were altered by men.


  6. #5
    Traditions of men who make VOID the word of God. It speaks of it many places in God's Word.


    Mark 7:13 (KJV)

    13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


    Jesus was asked by his disciples how to do they pray; this was the prayer He told them:

    Matthew 6:9-13 (KJV)

    9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

    10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

    11 Give us this day our daily bread.

    12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

    13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.


    Luke 11 (KJV)

    11 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.

    2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

    3 Give us day by day our daily bread.

    4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  7. #6
    Love this line from the video the most

    If the Bible had been written by a supreme being, then it wouldn’t contain the mistakes that it does. If it was written by a truly superior being, and meant to be read as a literal history, then the Bible wouldn’t contain anything that it does.

    As a moral guide, it utterly fails, because much of the original Hebrew scriptures were written by ignorant and bigoted savages who condoned and promoted animal cruelty, incest, slavery, abuse of slaves, spousal abuse, child abuse, child molestation, abortion, pillage, murder, cannibalism, genocide, and prejudice against race, nationality, religion, sex, and sexual orientation. Why? To justify their own inhumanity by claiming to do the will of God.
    plus

    They cannot accept that God could exist but the Bible be wrong because they can’t distinguish doctrine from deity. So it is a form of idolatry wherein the believers worship man-made compilations as though those books were God himself -because they think it is HIS word. But God never wrote or dictated any of the scriptures of any religion. Everything men chose to reject from or include in their supposedly “inalterable word” of whatever god was conceived, composed, compiled, translated, interpreted, edited, and often deliberately altered and enhanced by mere fallible men.
    Aronra

    http://darwinwasright.homestead.com/2ndffoc.html

    Tinkering, editing, redacting and rewriting so called words of god did not start with this generation. This has been going on centuries now so why get mad at this?

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by jkr View Post
    "...18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. 20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen. "
    You're misapplying scripture.

    First, as the section you quoted clearly says, the wanring applies to "the prophecy of this scroll"- i.e. The Revelation/Apocalypse of John. Nothing else.

    Second, if the translation Francis favors is a better translation then it is clarifying what was truly meant and going with anything else is misleading and adding to the words ideas they weren't meant to carry.

  9. #8

    Exclamation French Bishops

    Media Spin, Fake News.
    Stay away from French Catholics, and you'll be fine.

    No, Pope Francis Is Not Changing the Lord’s Prayer

    This is a classic case of the pope saying something and the media distorting it.
    Jimmy Akin

    Newspapers and websites erupted over the weekend with headlines like:


    Shame on all of them.
    The pope didn’t call for any changes.
    This is a classic case of the pope saying something and the media going hog-wild and completely distorting it.

    How did all this start?
    Italian television aired an hourlong interview with Pope Francis in which he was asked about a new version of the Lord’s Prayer in France.
    You can watch the interview (in Italian) here.

    What did the French church do?
    They adopted a new translation of the Lord’s Prayer for use in the liturgy. It went into effect on the first Sunday of Advent (which is why Pope Francis was being asked about it).
    Basically, they changed the line that in English reads “and lead us not into temptation” to one that means “do not let us fall into temptation.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only show up to attack Trump when he is wrong
    Make America the Land of the Free & the Home of the Brave again



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  11. #9
    Pope Francis has challenged the traditional wording of the Lord’s Prayer, suggesting that it be changed. The news media, as usual, has obscured the fact that the Pope is not wanting to alter the Lord’s words or the Biblical text, just saying that the familiar rendition in the various languages is not a good translation and that we need a version that is clearer. Nevertheless, the approach to the issue demonstrates the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism.

    Here is what the Pope said on the matter in an interview with an Italian journalist, referring to the petition “Lead us not into temptation.” From The Guardian:

    “It is not a good translation because it speaks of a God who induces temptation.”

    He added: “I am the one who falls; it’s not him pushing me into temptation to then see how I have fallen.

    “A father doesn’t do that, a father helps you to get up immediately. It’s Satan who leads us into temptation, that’s his department.”

    The Pope favors the version newly adopted in the French church: “do not let us fall into temptation.”

    Under Catholicism, the authority of the church leader is such that he can say of a Biblical translation “this is misleading, let’s change it.” The Protestant approach to an issue of translation first asks, “what does the Biblical text say?”

    Joseph Hartropp points out that the original Greek of Matthew 6:9-13 clearly supports the traditional translation:

    Biblical scholars might take issue with his translation though. After all, the current renderings are the fruit of hundreds of scholars pouring hours of deep study into ancient languages to communicate to the words of Scripture accurately. Others might simply be surprised that the Pope has taken such a clear line against a particular phrasing – one that doesn’t necessarily imply God actively ‘pushing’ people into sin. . . .

    The word in contention is the Greek verb eisenenkēs, meaning to ‘lead into’ or ‘bring in’. Grammatically, it is a second-person singular verb, in the active voice and the subjunctive (‘expressing wish or desire’) mood. That means, given that the prayer is directed to ‘our Father’ (who is grammatically singular), that God is the obvious actor of the verb ‘to lead’. That makes it difficult to argue that it is only Satan who ‘leads’ into temptation – the Greek text at least doesn’t suggest that.

    Helpfully that verb aligns with the next one used, also clearly referring to God as its agent. The Greek verb rhysai, meaning ‘to deliver’ appears only twice in the New Testament, here and in the Gospel of Luke’s version of the prayer (11:4). It is also in the second person singular form, though here it takes the ‘imperative’ mood – so that while being led into evil is sought against, being ‘delivered’ from evil is positively, emphatically urged by the intercessor.

    Besides, “lead us not into temptation” does not mean that God tempts us to sin or is, in the Pope’s words, “pushing me into temptation to then see how I have fallen.”

    What does this mean? That’s a catechism question. Here is what that petition means, according to Luther’s Small Catechism:
    The Sixth Petition: And lead us not into temptation.

    What does this mean? God tempts no one. We pray in this petition that God would guard and keep us so that the devil, the world, and our sinful nature may not deceive us or mislead us into false belief, despair, and other great shame and vice. Although we are attacked by these things, we pray that we may finally overcome them and win the victory.

    When something in the Bible is confusing or unclear, the solution for Reformation churches is catechesis. Also, as with other Protestants, Bible study. And expository preaching of God’s Word.

    The Bible is the authority that Protestants have to start with and to work from. Catholics start with and work from the authority of the Church, as embodied in the teaching office of the Pope. They do acknowledge the authority of the Bible, but it must be interpreted, which means in practice filtered through the teachings of the Church.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/genevei...-lords-prayer/
    Creating a better translation is not a change. It is the opposite. If the current translation favored is inferior that means it was the one changed and the better translation restores the true meaning. The debate then is whether this is a better translation or not.

    I personally think that obsessing over the first part of the sentence separately form the second -"but deliver us from evil' is bound to lead one into error. Meaning can only be drawn from the entire sentence, not part of it.

  12. #10
    God most certainly can lead you into temptation.

    Look at Job.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    God most certainly can lead you into temptation.

    Look at Job.
    Matthew 4:1-11: "Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil."

    Basically, what the Pope is saying that it be the Devil tempting you and not God judging you. Therefore, don't judge yourself so harshly. It was the Devil made you did it. Not God judging your measure in the face of temptation by design.
    Last edited by phill4paul; 08-15-2018 at 07:07 PM.

  14. #12
    Still not sure if he is the one, or if he passes the torch to the one.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    God most certainly can lead you into temptation.

    Look at Job.
    I Have.

    and I think something was lost in translation.. 'Lead us not into trial/testing, but deliver us from evil.

    It was the devil that vexed Job,,, even though God did take responsibility for it.

    Much of the devils deeds are blamed on God,, With God taking responsibility/credit for it.

    In all this, Job did not sin or charge God with wrongdoing.
    Don't Blame God..

    I have to remember this always as I observe this world.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    I Have.

    and I think something was lost in translation.. 'Lead us not into trial/testing, but deliver us from evil.

    It was the devil that vexed Job,,, even though God did take responsibility for it.

    Much of the devils deeds are blamed on God,, With God taking responsibility/credit for it.



    Don't Blame God..

    I have to remember this always as I observe this world.
    From a Christian perspective you have not enough understanding to be able to judge God. That's kind of the point of belief, isn't it. But, God has led others into temptation, according to some scripture. He did it with Job and he did it with his son.

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Matthew 4:1-11: "Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil."

    Basically, what the Pope is saying that it be the Devil tempting you and not God judging you. Therefore, don't judge yourself so harshly. It was the Devil made you did it. Not God judging your measure in the face of temptation by design.
    God has tempted. He has certainly allowed temptation in his Kingdom at the least. But, I don't think for a moment that the Christian God would not tempt. He has done it before. To find a mans/womans measure. And he allows Lucifer to do it. Which at the least is culpable.
    Last edited by phill4paul; 08-15-2018 at 08:06 PM.

  17. #15
    1 Corinthians 10:13 (KJV)

    13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    God most certainly can lead you into temptation.

    Look at Job.
    Job is a poetic work meant to explore human suffering. Even if believe the Bible to be historic, Job was meant to be understood as a work of fiction.

    Also, God doesn't lead Job into temptation. He merely allows the Devil to do so.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Matthew 4:1-11: "Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil."

    Basically, what the Pope is saying that it be the Devil tempting you and not God judging you. Therefore, don't judge yourself so harshly. It was the Devil made you did it. Not God judging your measure in the face of temptation by design.
    In matthew 4:1 it still isn't God leaidng you into temptation. It is God leading you to wher eyou will be tempted. The Devil is still the one actually tempting you (or Jesus in this case).

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    God most certainly can lead you into temptation.

    Look at Job.

    Job 42:10 (KJV)

    10 And the Lord turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Job is a poetic work meant to explore human suffering. Even if believe the Bible to be historic, Job was meant to be understood as a work of fiction.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    In matthew 4:1 it still isn't God leaidng you into temptation. It is God leading you to wher eyou will be tempted. The Devil is still the one actually tempting you (or Jesus in this case).
    That is GOD leading you into a place of temptation, he has a right to test us by exposing us to temptation and he does.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That is GOD leading you into a place of temptation, he has a right to test us by exposing us to temptation and he does.
    Life is a place of temptation. You don't need God to lead you anywhere. merely being born in it is enough. If you don't understand this, then read Romans. Paul talks about it quite a bit.

    In any case the scripture doesn't say what you assert. God leading you to a place where you can be tempted (as if that place were different from any other place in life) is still not God Himself tempting you. The scripture specifically says the Devil tempted Christ, not God.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Life is a place of temptation. You don't need God to lead you anywhere. merely being born in it is enough. If you don't understand this, then read Romans. Paul talks about it quite a bit.

    In any case the scripture doesn't say what you assert. God leading you to a place where you can be tempted (as if that place were different from any other place in life) is still not God Himself tempting you. The scripture specifically says the Devil tempted Christ, not God.
    Some places have more temptation than others and the prayer does not say GOD does the tempting, it requests that he not lead you into it, we must deal with GOD leading us into temptation when he chooses to do so but we should seek to avoid temptation as much as possible and it is perfectly sensible to request that to whatever degree there is room for choice on GOD's part that he not lead us into it.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Job is a poetic work meant to explore human suffering. Even if believe the Bible to be historic, Job was meant to be understood as a work of fiction.

    Also, God doesn't lead Job into temptation. He merely allows the Devil to do so.
    That's a new wrinkle I hadn't heard before.

    What say the RPF bible scholars: is Job a fictional character, or was his faith really tested, in the form of a living man?

  27. #24
    I frankly am not that concerned, I am not going to pray the altered text, but I personally feel that Frankie the Red should spend less time $#@!ing around with the Lord's Prayer, and instead spend more time cracking down on the legions of pedophile homosexual priests $#@!ing with little boys in his church.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    That's a new wrinkle I hadn't heard before.

    What say the RPF bible scholars: is Job a fictional character, or was his faith really tested, in the form of a living man?
    Real.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  30. #26
    I have major problems with Pope Francis. Major concerns.

    This particular issue however is being overblown I think. He is actually giving a more nuanced and correct translation of the original Greek.

    Funny how so many people are jumping up and down about this, when one can pick up many modern English translations of the Bible and you find varying translations for words and phrases. The problem has to do with language in itself and the difficulty in correctly expressing at times what the original meaning in the original Greek meant.

    1 Corinthians 10:13 - There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

    God is almighty - He keeps the devil from tempting and allows also the devil to tempt. God doesn't do the tempting, but allows the Devil to do the tempting.. ala The Book of Job. Why does He allow this? Because in His great wisdom it can be a pedagogic experience for us, and may strengthen one, just as a contaminated metal is purified and strengthened when placed in a fire. God allows these temptations to happen by the devil so that like atheletes we may be be trained and prepared for when the most difficult trials occur (usually right after we die, when we are accused by the demons for the sins we have done and must pass through the spirits in the air who fight to drag us into the pit.).

    So, when we ask to "lead us not in temptation" we are asking Him to not allow the devil to tempt us but to rather "deliver us from the evil one". We are in essence expressing our humility and weakness before God and our dependence on Him so that we can overcome the evil one. It is in fact similar in vein as praying the Jesus Prayer : “Lord have mercy on me”. We are acknowledging our sinfulness and weakness against temptation and praying to God that He would not permit us to be tempted by Satan, but rather to deliver us from the evil one.

    The verb in "mi eisenegkis" in the original text of the Lord’s Prayer in the Gospels (which is commonly translated into the English as “lead us not”) is subjunctive, *not* imperative, and it's what's called a "permissive imperative," i.e. the most literal translation would be "do not permit us to be led into temptation."
    Last edited by TER; 08-17-2018 at 10:52 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    That's a new wrinkle I hadn't heard before.

    What say the RPF bible scholars: is Job a fictional character, or was his faith really tested, in the form of a living man?

    Job was a living man who God had a wall of protection around, and Satan told God you take that wall of protection away from Job, he would break Job's will and turn against God. God knew Satan wouldn't do that because Job was strong in his faith and love of God. (Job 1) These trials and tribulations went on for 38 chapters and Job never caved-in, just as God told Satan, and God rewarded Job with double for his unwavering faith to God.

    Job 42:10 (KJV)
    10 And the Lord turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.

    Job 42:12 (KJV)
    12 So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning:
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    I have major problems with Pope Francis. Major concerns.

    This particular issue however is being overblown I think. He is actually giving a more nuanced and correct translation of the original Greek.

    Funny how so many people are jumping up and down about this, when one can pick up many modern English translations of the Bible and you find varying translations for words and phrases. The problem has to do with language in itself and the difficulty in correctly expressing at times what the original meaning in the original Greek meant.

    1 Corinthians 10:13 - There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

    God is almighty - He keeps the devil from tempting and allows also the devil to tempt. God doesn't do the tempting, but allows the Devil to do the tempting.. ala The Book of Job. Why does He allow this? Because in His great wisdom it can be a pedagogic experience for us, and may strengthen one, just as a contaminated metal is purified and strengthened when placed in a fire. God allows these temptations to happen by the devil so that like atheletes we may be be trained and prepared for when the most difficult trials occur (usually right after we die, when we are accused by the demons for the sins we have done and must pass through the spirits in the air who fight to drag us into the pit.).

    So, when we ask to "lead us not in temptation" we are asking Him to not allow the devil to tempt us but to rather "deliver us from the evil one". We are in essence expressing our humility and weakness before God and our dependence on Him so that we can overcome the evil one. It is in fact similar in vein as praying the Jesus Prayer : “Lord have mercy on me”. We are acknowledging our sinfulness and weakness against temptation and praying to God that He would not permit us to be tempted by Satan, but rather to deliver us from the evil one.

    The verb in "mi eisenegkis" in the original text of the Lord’s Prayer in the Gospels (which is commonly translated into the English as “lead us not”) is subjunctive, *not* imperative, and it's what's called a "permissive imperative," i.e. the most literal translation would be "do not permit us to be led into temptation."
    Thanks for posting.

    What is your view on Job?
    @TER

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    That's a new wrinkle I hadn't heard before.

    What say the RPF bible scholars: is Job a fictional character, or was his faith really tested, in the form of a living man?
    I believe real,, and I look forward to conversation with him.

    I was in the Book and the Book was in my life,, for several years..

    Lessons learned are priceless. and have forced revisions to the way I look at things. Helped me understand and accept the WHY of things.

    The first time I read it,,, Jobs friends seemed to make some valid points. and I heard echos of those same points in people from my life.

    I have read it enough to hear the folly in their voices now. God rebuked them..and Job prayed for them.

    I look forward to meeting him.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Thanks for posting.

    What is your view on Job?
    @TER
    I believe he existed and is one of greatest role models of faith, perseverance, and trust in God.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

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