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Thread: Do you have natural rights? If so, what are the root elements of them?

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    Do you have natural rights? If so, what are the root elements of them?

    Per the title, do you have natural rights? If so, what are they and what are the root elements of them? Most specifically, I'm interested to break down the ideas and concepts into their most fundamental pieces.

    For example, saying we have the right to liberty can be viewed as a right, but how can this be further quantified? How can you break this down? Does this mean you have the freedom of movement? But is that really a sub-element of the freedom of self-determination? As well, there are some limits to the freedom of movement.

    Thanks for any viewpoints.



    BTW, natural rights have certainly been discussed here in the past but nothing to this detail that I can find. Some threads:
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/tags.ph...natural+rights
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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    Per the title, do you have natural rights? If so, what are they and what are the root elements of them? Most specifically, I'm interested to break down the ideas and concepts into their most fundamental pieces.

    For example, saying we have the right to liberty can be viewed as a right, but how can this be further quantified? How can you break this down? Does this mean you have the freedom of movement? But is that really a sub-element of the freedom of self-determination? As well, there are some limits to the freedom of movement.

    Thanks for any viewpoints.



    BTW, natural rights have certainly been discussed here in the past but nothing to this detail that I can find. Some threads:
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/tags.ph...natural+rights
    I'm not certain whether you are looking for detail or axiom.
    All rights are an extension of self-ownership.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  4. #3
    The OP raises two issues:

    -How are individual rights, in the libertarian sense, to be defined?

    -How are those rights to be justified?

    As to the first issue, back when Bryan was trying to set up a sort of RPF wiki, IIRC, I posted an article on this topic. I won't go looking for it just now, maybe someone else knows where it is, but, paraphrasing Mises, the program of liberalism, if reduced to a single word, would read: property. A property right is a right to use some thing (car, land, Reuben sandwich, human body). The essence of libertarianism is a set of principles governing the distribution of property rights, chief among which is the principle of voluntary exchange. Locke's formula of "life, liberty, and property," understood from this point of view, is a redundancy (like "copper, iron, and metal"). It's all a matter of property rights, in different specific applications. The overarching goal of liberalism/libertarianism must be to maximize the security of property (or, what is the same thing, minimize the incidence of aggression).

    As to the second issue, justifying these ethical principles, there is the economic justification (i.e. a society which respects these rules will be maximally prosperous [the problem of cardinal value aside]), and then there is the deontological justification (which amounts to an intuitive sense that these rules are just). In either case, the justification rests on subjective values (i.e. that prosperity is good, or that such and such ethical rule is just); there is no possibility of "proving" ethical claims, contra the foolishness of Hoppe's argumentation ethics or similar dead-ends.

  5. #4
    We have no natural rights. That is a humanist ideology which ignores the fact that everything we have has been given to us by our Creator.

    Any ‘rights’ we think we have is a gift given to us by God, not because we deserve it or because we are born human. It is solely because of God’s love that we have anything at all, including life.

    Simply being born does not give us any rights.

    Being obedient to our Creator, however, gives us sonship and access to the Kingdom of God.

    While these temporal political ideologies like Constitutional republics seek to bring order in this fallen world, the goal and final destination is infact a Kingdom. Any rights we have is according to the will of our King, that is, God.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  6. #5
    This might be an opportune moment to add that, for the libertarian, it should make no difference whatsoever how another person comes to libertarianism. If someone insists that Hoppean argumentation ethics is a "proof" of ethics, or makes an analogous error with respect to some other school of secular ethics, or if a religious person claims that it is the will of the deity that property rights be respected, that all works fine. It doesn't really matter why people are libertarians.

  7. #6
    Nothing a person owns is truly theirs. Everything has been given to us as a loan. It is up to us on how we use the talents which truly counts. Locking them up and storing them away will count for naught when we are asked to give an account on how we used the things that were given to us.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  8. #7
    @TER, as you are our resident expert in the affairs on the Constantinopolitan Church, I have a non-rhetorical question for you:

    (I'll be brief, no need to move this to the religion sub-forum)

    In English translation of the Bible, we have the phrase "give unto to Caesar what is Caesar's," or something to that effect.

    What is the original Greek word being translated as "Caesar"? Basileus, tyrannos, or something else?

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Nothing a person owns is truly theirs. Everything has been given to us as a loan. It is up to us on how we use the talents which truly counts. Locking them up and storing them away will count for naught when we are asked to give an account on how we used the things that were given to us.
    What if we are just a mistake which struggles to perpetuate itself for no reason whatsoever?

    Last edited by timosman; 08-12-2018 at 09:15 PM.



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  11. #9
    Just as Thomas Jefferson wrote in the DOI we have unalienable rights endowed by our Creator.

    UNALIENABLE. The state of a thing or right which cannot be sold.
    2. Things which are not in commerce, as public roads, are in their nature unalienable. Some things are unalienable, in consequence of particular provisions in the law forbidding their sale or transfer, as pensions granted by the government. The natural rights of life and liberty are unalienable.
    https://legal-dictionary.thefreedict...om/unalienable
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    What if we are just a mistake which struggles to perpetuate itself for no reason whatsoever?

    That would be an apt description of internet trolls, no?

  13. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    I'm not certain whether you are looking for detail or axiom.
    Just looking for thoughtful analysis and discussion, we'll see where it goes.


    All rights are an extension of self-ownership.
    When does this self-ownership begin?

    Is it possible to derive the right to own property from self-ownership? Or is that a separate matter?

    Thanks!
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    Members must read and follow our Community Guidelines.

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  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Just as Thomas Jefferson wrote in the DOI we have unalienable rights endowed by our Creator.


    https://legal-dictionary.thefreedict...om/unalienable
    Thomas Jefferson also edited the NT to deny Christ’s miracles. He was not a Christian. The majority of the founders were Freemasons.

    The Declaration of Independence was not the Word of the God. It was a political declaration. .

    Show me where in the Bible it says or even alludes that we are born with inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
    Last edited by TER; 08-12-2018 at 09:46 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  15. #13
    The discussion of this nature is not complete without the answer to the most fundamental question - Why are we here?

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    @TER, as you are our resident expert in the affairs on the Constantinopolitan Church, I have a non-rhetorical question for you:

    (I'll be brief, no need to move this to the religion sub-forum)

    In English translation of the Bible, we have the phrase "give unto to Caesar what is Caesar's," or something to that effect.

    What is the original Greek word being translated as "Caesar"? Basileus, tyrannos, or something else?
    The Biblical and apostolic teachings I am mentioning above was established long before Constantinople was founded.

    As for the original Greek word used in that verse, the word used was Καίσαρος, which translates to Cćsar.
    Last edited by TER; 08-12-2018 at 10:06 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    The discussion of this nature is not complete without the answer to the most fundamental question - Why are we here?
    Well said.

    If the answer is ‘for the accumulation of material possessions’, then it is a very carnal and weak answer.

    Nothing we have is ours. Everything, even our life and the air we breath has been given to us
    Last edited by TER; 08-12-2018 at 10:05 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  18. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    The OP raises two issues:

    -How are individual rights, in the libertarian sense, to be defined?

    -How are those rights to be justified?

    As to the first issue, back when Bryan was trying to set up a sort of RPF wiki,
    I still am. This is part of that. The project has certainly been on hiatus for too long but it will never be a past tense issue.

    IIRC, I posted an article on this topic. I won't go looking for it just now, maybe someone else knows where it is, but, paraphrasing Mises, the program of liberalism, if reduced to a single word, would read: property. A property right is a right to use some thing (car, land, Reuben sandwich, human body). The essence of libertarianism is a set of principles governing the distribution of property rights, chief among which is the principle of voluntary exchange. Locke's formula of "life, liberty, and property," understood from this point of view, is a redundancy (like "copper, iron, and metal"). It's all a matter of property rights, in different specific applications. The overarching goal of liberalism/libertarianism must be to maximize the security of property (or, what is the same thing, minimize the incidence of aggression).
    How do you see property rights in relation to air? Do you have a natural right to air? Air can be viewed as property, you can contain, trade and consume air. If you were on a Mars colony it would be obvious you don't have a right to air. Is it different on Earth? Can one still argue you do not have a right to air and if you didn't own any property you could end up in a situation where you owned no air. Sounds bizarre, but what are the counter arguments?


    As to the second issue, justifying these ethical principles, there is the economic justification (i.e. a society which respects these rules will be maximally prosperous [the problem of cardinal value aside]), and then there is the deontological justification (which amounts to an intuitive sense that these rules are just). In either case, the justification rests on subjective values (i.e. that prosperity is good, or that such and such ethical rule is just); there is no possibility of "proving" ethical claims, contra the foolishness of Hoppe's argumentation ethics or similar dead-ends.
    Technically, I didn't mention justification, just what they were. To your point however, I agree that justification rests on subjective values. In the big picture of my work, I'm taking a difference approach that works to avoid these dead ends. But that's a different topic.

    Thank you!
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  20. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    We have no natural rights. That is a humanist ideology which ignores the fact that everything we have has been given to us by our Creator.
    What specifically has been given to us?


    Any ‘rights’ we think we have is a gift given to us by God, not because we deserve it or because we are born human. It is solely because of God’s love that we have anything at all, including life.

    Simply being born does not give us any rights.

    Being obedient to our Creator, however, gives us sonship and access to the Kingdom of God.

    While these temporal political ideologies like Constitutional republics seek to bring order in this fallen world, the goal and final destination is infact a Kingdom. Any rights we have is according to the will of our King, that is, God.
    Thank you for your writing!!
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    Members must read and follow our Community Guidelines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    In English translation of the Bible, we have the phrase "give unto to Caesar what is Caesar's," or something to that effect.
    As an aside, this is an important principle. If you have borrowed something from Caesar then you should give it back, it is his. Conversely, the fruits of your labor are your and yours alone. If Caesar has earned goodwill then it's good to give it to him.
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  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    What specifically has been given to us?
    We have been given life and existence. We have been given personhood. We have been given a great gift which is to share in God’s creation.

    We have been given the awesome opportunity to partake of the divine nature, where there is true liberty and freedom.

    These I would say are there greatest things we have been given. Everything else we have (which has also been given), is to aid us in this endeavor.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    As an aside, this is an important principle. If you have borrowed something from Caesar then you should give it back, it is his. Conversely, the fruits of your labor are your and yours alone. If Caesar has earned goodwill then it's good to give it to him.
    To dig deeper, what fruits of our labor are ours and ours alone?
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Thomas Jefferson also edited the NT to deny Christ’s miracles. He was not a Christian. The majority of the founders were Freemasons.

    The Declaration of Independence was not the Word of the God. It was a political declaration. .

    Show me where in the Bible it says or even alludes that we are born with inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
    I didn't say the DOI was the word of God. Thomas Jefferson understood what 'unalienable rights' are. He was the principle author of the DOI and if he didn't believe in God he wouldn't have wrote it into the DOI.

    2 Corinthians 3:17 (KJV)
    Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

    John 8:32 (KJV)
    And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    James 1:25 (KJV)
    But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    Just looking for thoughtful analysis and discussion, we'll see where it goes.



    When does this self-ownership begin?

    Is it possible to derive the right to own property from self-ownership? Or is that a separate matter?

    Thanks!
    A bit different perspective..

    I was Created..My Creator is the only "authority" that I recognize..

    as for ownership,, I voluntarily surrendered that,, though I am autonomous until called.

    I am owned only by my Creator.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    I didn't say the DOI was the word of God. Thomas Jefferson understood what 'unalienable rights' are. He was the principle author of the DOI and if he didn't believe in God he wouldn't have wrote it into the DOI.

    2 Corinthians 3:17 (KJV)
    Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

    John 8:32 (KJV)
    And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    James 1:25 (KJV)
    But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
    None of those verses come close to saying what Thomas Jefferson said, namely that God has given us any inalienable rights.

    BTW, I didn’t say TJ didn’t believe in God.

    He was a Deist. Not a Christian.
    +
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  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    None of those verses come close to saying what Thomas Jefferson said, namely that God has given us any inalienable rights.
    Look up; 'unalienable' which is in the DOI and the Bill of Rights. There is a difference. Unalienable are fixed rights endowed to us by our Creator.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner



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  29. #25
    Interestingly, today’s Gospel reading is very relevant to this discussion.

    I’ll go dig it up...
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  30. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Just as Thomas Jefferson wrote in the DOI we have unalienable rights endowed by our Creator.

    UNALIENABLE. The state of a thing or right which cannot be sold.
    2. Things which are not in commerce, as public roads, are in their nature unalienable. Some things are unalienable, in consequence of particular provisions in the law forbidding their sale or transfer, as pensions granted by the government. The natural rights of life and liberty are unalienable.
    https://legal-dictionary.thefreedict...om/unalienable
    Thank you. So are we then just considering life and liberty? Can we break this down? What does it really mean to say we have a natural right to life? Does that mean we have a right the essence of what is required to sustain life, such as water, air and food? Or does it just mean that no one should take away our life?

    Similarly, how can we quantify liberty? What exactly do we have the liberty to do? For example, do we have the liberty to travel where ever we want?
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  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Look up; 'unalienable' which is in the DOI and the Bill of Rights. There is a difference. Unalienable are fixed rights endowed to us by our Creator.
    Where in the Bible does it say we have such rights?
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  32. #28
    Matthew 18

    The Lord said this parable: "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents; and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, 'Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.' And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, 'Pay what you owe.' So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.' He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt. When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place. Then his lord summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' And in anger his lord delivered him to the torturers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."

    +++

    Some would say that the king was unfair because he should not have punished the servant who demanded his debt be repaid from the other servant. After all, it was the first servant’s money which he has owed, which he worked for and was the fruit of his labor. Why should the king get involved?

    Until one realizes that everything we have, even the fruit of our labor, is ultimately on loan from our king (God).
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    Thank you. So are we then just considering life and liberty? Can we break this down? What does it really mean to say we have a natural right to life? Does that mean we have a right the essence of what is required to sustain life, such as water, air and food? Or does it just mean that no one should take away our life?

    Similarly, how can we quantify liberty? What exactly do we have the liberty to do? For example, do we have the liberty to travel where ever we want?
    Unalienable right is an 'absolute' right. Yes, we have a right to the things that sustain our lives.

    If someone premeditatively takes someone's life, God said, send them to me. (Numbers 35:30 - 35:31 - KJV)

    We should have the liberty to move about freely, government does not grant rights, therefore they should not take them away.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    How do you see property rights in relation to air? Do you have a natural right to air? Air can be viewed as property, you can contain, trade and consume air. If you were on a Mars colony it would be obvious you don't have a right to air. Is it different on Earth? Can one still argue you do not have a right to air and if you didn't own any property you could end up in a situation where you owned no air. Sounds bizarre, but what are the counter arguments?
    I would argue that on earth air is superabundant, unlike most other things there is no scarcity of it (except in small airtight spaces), your consumption will not even potentially deprive anyone else and therefore nobody has a right to deprive you of any amount you consume.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

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