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Thread: Don't Fool Yourself, the Left is Still Winning

  1. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Conveniently I already answered your questions the first time that you asked them.
    I have always said the Boers were not perfect, the question under discussion was whether they were better than what took over from them or than most other countries.

    Do you think things got better when the Boers lost power or do you think they got worse?

    Don't bother bringing up slavery because it was common throughout history and it came to an end, we are discussing post-slavery times.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    So then what would you change?
    Change about what?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.



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  5. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Change about what?
    The current political system in South Africa.

  6. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I have always said the Boers were not perfect, the question under discussion was whether they were better than what took over from them or than most other countries.
    Define better.


    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Do you think things got better when the Boers lost power or do you think they got worse?
    Better for whom?


    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Don't bother bringing up slavery because it was common throughout history and it came to an end, we are discussing post-slavery times.
    Too bad.

    The thing that's hilariously ironic about your position, and the whole reason why I bring it up in the first place, is that you view a group which enslaved their neighbors as better for liberty to a group that has been generally corrupt and overall $#@! at self-government.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  7. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    The current political system in South Africa.
    Is the system the problem?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  8. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I have always said the Boers were not perfect, the question under discussion was whether they were better than what took over from them or than most other countries.

    Do you think things got better when the Boers lost power or do you think they got worse?

    Don't bother bringing up slavery because it was common throughout history and it came to an end, we are discussing post-slavery times.
    He kept saying that they have slaves and he made it sound current. I looked it up, slavery ended in 1830 in South Africa. It's hard to find unbiased information on recent apartheid South Africa. The media says it was a cruel slave state. I heard an interview with a Boer who said blacks don't have to serve in the military and they don't have to pay taxes. I heard they could own property but were not allowed to own it in certain areas. It would be interesting to get an accurate account of what the rights were of the blacks living in South Africa. One thing I know is that the black population exploded. I'm going to guess that there was a net positive emigration of blacks into South Africa during apartheid and a net negative in the surrounding countries.

  9. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Define better.
    The opposite of worse.




    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Better for whom?
    For the citizens of the country.





    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Too bad.

    The thing that's hilariously ironic about your position, and the whole reason why I bring it up in the first place, is that you view a group which enslaved their neighbors as better for liberty to a group that has been generally corrupt and overall $#@! at self-government.
    Black Africans have also enslaved or genocided their neighbors, almost no group on the planet has a perfectly pure history, what is relevant is what the Boers had created before they lost power vs. what those who replaced them in power have created.

    Zimbabwe created genocide and dictatorship and S. Africa is following it down the same path.

    Everyone was better off under the Boer regime as it was before the communist Blacks took over, even some Blacks say so:

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  10. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    He kept saying that they have slaves and he made it sound current. I looked it up, slavery ended in 1830 in South Africa. It's hard to find unbiased information on recent apartheid South Africa. The media says it was a cruel slave state. I heard an interview with a Boer who said blacks don't have to serve in the military and they don't have to pay taxes. I heard they could own property but were not allowed to own it in certain areas. It would be interesting to get an accurate account of what the rights were of the blacks living in South Africa. One thing I know is that the black population exploded. I'm going to guess that there was a net positive emigration of blacks into South Africa during apartheid and a net negative in the surrounding countries.
    I owe you Rep.

    Many Blacks moved to S. Africa and Rhodesia under the Boers.

    The Vampire is a typical crypto-communist who tries to pretend that slavery was a uniquely white sin and that all whites are forever guilty of it.
    Last edited by Swordsmyth; 08-05-2018 at 06:55 PM.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Is the system the problem?
    Alright I'm tired of this game. I already know how you think so I'll lay it out. You think the apartheid system was horrible and that unlimited democracy was perfectly ok, because you are a socialist. You are highly offended when poor blacks have their rights violated but it doesn't bother you at all when it's rich whites because they "had it coming". I know this because you've slipped up and exposed yourself a few times. Like when I said tax cuts for the rich don't increase the deficit (spending does). You had a cow over that. Or the time you argued that tariffs are just as immoral as progressive taxation. You're a classic, class warfare advocate.
    Last edited by Madison320; 08-05-2018 at 07:01 PM.

  12. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    He kept saying that they have slaves and he made it sound current. I looked it up, slavery ended in 1830 in South Africa.
    Forced labor on farms in Rhodesia.


    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    I heard an interview with a Boer who said blacks don't have to serve in the military
    C'mon, man, try to apply just the least bit of critical thinking.

    Why, in a country of ethnic minority rule, do you suppose that the government would conscript only members of that ethnic minority, and does that represent a positive or a negative thing for those who are not members of that minority?
    Last edited by TheCount; 08-06-2018 at 09:57 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.



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  14. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    Alright I'm tired of this game. I already know how you think so I'll lay it out. You think the apartheid system was horrible and that unlimited democracy was perfectly ok, because you are a socialist. You are highly offended when poor blacks have their rights violated but it doesn't bother you at all when it's rich whites because they "had it coming". I know this because you've slipped up and exposed yourself a few times. Like when I said tax cuts for the rich don't increase the deficit (spending does). You had a cow over that. Or the time you argued that tariffs are just as immoral as progressive taxation. You're a classic, class warfare advocate.
    You are, as usual, wrong on all points. I'm not defending either system. In fact, I challenge you to point out the positive things that I supposedly argued in favor of current black rule in South Africa. The positive claim came from Swordsmyth, who believes that white slavers who disenfranchised and abused their neighbors have a stronger ethnic culture of liberty than their black countrymen. All I have done is point out the complete lack of logic involved, partly because it's a hilariously stupid position to hold, and partly because the indefensible nature of the assertion based on 'genetic liberty culture' reveals that there is another factor involved in making the Boers 'better' than their black counterparts and it is clearly ethnicity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  15. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    You are, as usual, wrong on all points. I'm not defending either system. In fact, I challenge you to point out the positive things that I supposedly argued in favor of current black rule in South Africa. The positive claim came from Swordsmyth, who believes that white slavers who disenfranchised and abused their neighbors have a stronger ethnic culture of liberty than their black countrymen. All I have done is point out the complete lack of logic involved, partly because it's a hilariously stupid position to hold, and partly because the indefensible nature of the assertion based on 'genetic liberty culture' reveals that there is another factor involved in making the Boers 'better' than their black counterparts and it is clearly ethnicity.
    If you're not defending the current system in South Africa, specifically unrestricted democracy, then how would you change it? If you are in favor of keeping the current system of unlimited democracy then it follows that you are supporting it.

    An acceptable position would be that while you realize that unlimited democracy is a bad system you're not sure the best replacement. But as far as I can tell you think it's the best system available.

  16. #403
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    If you're not defending the current system in South Africa, specifically unrestricted democracy, then how would you change it? If you are in favor of keeping the current system of unlimited democracy then it follows that you are supporting it.

    An acceptable position would be that while you realize that unlimited democracy is a bad system you're not sure the best replacement. But as far as I can tell you think it's the best system available.
    I don't think that the problems in South Africa are related to "unlimited democracy." Also, I don't really care what you think is or is not an acceptable position.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  17. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    You are, as usual, wrong on all points. I'm not defending either system. In fact, I challenge you to point out the positive things that I supposedly argued in favor of current black rule in South Africa. The positive claim came from Swordsmyth, who believes that white slavers who disenfranchised and abused their neighbors have a stronger ethnic culture of liberty than their black countrymen. All I have done is point out the complete lack of logic involved, partly because it's a hilariously stupid position to hold, and partly because the indefensible nature of the assertion based on 'genetic liberty culture' reveals that there is another factor involved in making the Boers 'better' than their black counterparts and it is clearly ethnicity.
    More lies, I never said anything about an "ethnic culture" or a "genetic culture" and Blacks have enslaved one another and done just about everything wrong that the Boers ever did, they are now turning countries that had more liberty than most into countries with less than most.

    As I have said over and over ethnicity doesn't matter, culture does.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    I don't think that the problems in South Africa are related to "unlimited democracy." Also, I don't really care what you think is or is not an acceptable position.
    So you are admitting to supporting mob rule/unlimited democracy?

    This site promotes limited government and individual rights, why do you post here?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    I don't think that the problems in South Africa are related to "unlimited democracy."
    I rest my case.

    Democracy Is Not Freedom

    by Rep. Ron Paul, MD

    "...man is not free unless government is limited. There's a clear cause and effect here that is as neat and predictable as a law of physics: As government expands, liberty contracts." Ronald Reagan


    We've all heard the words democracy and freedom used countless times, especially in the context of our invasion of Iraq. They are used interchangeably in modern political discourse, yet their true meanings are very different.

    George Orwell wrote about "meaningless words" that are endlessly repeated in the political arena.* Words like "freedom," "democracy," and "justice," Orwell explained, have been abused so long that their original meanings have been eviscerated. In Orwell's view, political words were "Often used in a consciously dishonest way."

    Without precise meanings behind words, politicians and elites can obscure reality and condition people to reflexively associate certain words with positive or negative perceptions. In other words, unpleasant facts can be hidden behind purposely meaningless language. As a result, Americans have been conditioned to accept the word "democracy" as a synonym for freedom, and thus to believe that democracy is unquestionably good.

    The problem is that democracy is not freedom. Democracy is simply majoritarianism, which is inherently incompatible with real freedom. Our founding fathers clearly understood this, as evidenced not only by our republican constitutional system, but also by their writings in the Federalist Papers and elsewhere.

    James Madison cautioned that under a democratic government, "There is nothing to check the inducement to sacrifice the weaker party or the obnoxious individual." John Adams argued that democracies merely grant revocable rights to citizens depending on the whims of the masses, while a republic exists to secure and protect pre-existing rights.

    Yet how many Americans know that the word "democracy" is found neither in the Constitution nor the Declaration of Independence, our very founding documents?

    A truly democratic election in Iraq, without U.S. interference and U.S. puppet candidates, almost certainly would result in the creation of a Shiite theocracy. Shiite majority rule in Iraq might well mean the complete political, economic, and social subjugation of the minority Kurd and Sunni Arab populations. Such an outcome would be democratic, but would it be free?

    Would the Kurds and Sunnis consider themselves free? The administration talks about democracy in Iraq, but is it prepared to accept a democratically-elected Iraqi government no matter what its attitude toward the U.S. occupation? Hardly. For all our talk about freedom and democracy, the truth is we have no idea whether Iraqis will be free in the future.

    They're certainly not free while a foreign army occupies their country. The real test is not whether Iraq adopts a democratic, pro-western government, but rather whether ordinary Iraqis can lead their personal, religious, social, and business lives without interference from government.

    Simply put, freedom is the absence of government coercion. Our Founding Fathers understood this, and created the least coercive government in the history of the world. The Constitution established a very limited, decentralized government to provide national defense and little else. States, not the federal government, were charged with protecting individuals against criminal force and fraud.

    For the first time, a government was created solely to protect the rights, liberties, and property of its citizens. Any government coercion beyond that necessary to secure those rights was forbidden, both through the Bill of Rights and the doctrine of strictly enumerated powers. This reflected the founders' belief that democratic government could be as tyrannical as any King.

    Few Americans understand that all government action is inherently coercive. If nothing else, government action requires taxes. If taxes were freely paid, they wouldn't be called taxes, they'd be called donations. If we intend to use the word freedom in an honest way, we should have the simple integrity to give it real meaning: Freedom is living without government coercion. So when a politician talks about freedom for this group or that, ask yourself whether he is advocating more government action or less.

    The political left equates freedom with liberation from material wants, always via a large and benevolent government that exists to create equality on earth. To modern liberals, men are free only when the laws of economics and scarcity are suspended, the landlord is rebuffed, the doctor presents no bill, and groceries are given away.

    But philosopher Ayn Rand (and many others before her) demolished this argument by explaining how such "freedom" for some is possible only when government takes freedoms away from others. In other words, government claims on the lives and property of those who are expected to provide housing, medical care, food, etc. for others are coercive - and thus incompatible with freedom. "Liberalism," which once stood for civil, political, and economic liberties, has become a synonym for omnipotent coercive government.

    The political right equates freedom with national greatness brought about through military strength. Like the left, modern conservatives favor an all-powerful central state - but for militarism, corporatism, and faith-based welfarism.

    Unlike the Taft-Goldwater conservatives of yesteryear, today's Republicans are eager to expand government spending, increase the federal police apparatus, and intervene militarily around the world. The last tenuous links between conservatives and support for smaller government have been severed. "Conservatism," which once meant respect for tradition and distrust of active government, has transformed into big-government utopian grandiosity.

    Orwell certainly was right about the use of meaningless words in politics. If we hope to remain free, we must cut through the fog and attach concrete meanings to the words politicians use to deceive us.

    We must reassert that America is a republic, not a democracy, and remind ourselves that the Constitution places limits on government that no majority can overrule. We must resist any use of the word "freedom" to describe state action. We must reject the current meaningless designations of "liberals" and "conservatives," in favor of an accurate term for both: statists.

    Every politician on earth claims to support freedom. The problem is so few of them understand the simple meaning of the word.


    http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/y2k/christ_toon.htm
    Last edited by Madison320; 08-07-2018 at 08:01 AM.

  20. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    So you are admitting to supporting mob rule/unlimited democracy?

    This site promotes limited government and individual rights, why do you post here?
    I think we should welcome opposing viewpoints, I just wish he'd be honest about his postion.

  21. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    I rest my case.
    Which group involved would increase liberty if granted rule over their neighbors?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.



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  23. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    So you are admitting to supporting mob rule/unlimited democracy?

    This site promotes limited government and individual rights, why do you post here?
    In which instance did limited voting rights produce limited government and individual rights?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  24. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    In which instance did limited voting rights produce limited government and individual rights?
    The US.

  25. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Which group involved would increase liberty if granted rule over their neighbors?
    Liberty minded groups.

    Even if you limit the pool of voters, you still have to have a majority to make changes. Why would a smaller pool of liberty minded voters be more likely to pass laws to rule over their neighbors, than letting everyone vote? We already know what happens when you let everyone vote. The majority vote to steal from the productive minority. There's a lot more unproductive people than productive people. So it's flows logically that the politicians are going promise to steal from the productive few and give to the unproductive many. And the hypothesis is confirmed over and over in reality. That's why the top producers pay 40% of their income and the lower ones pay nothing. That's why you can sue you employer for racism but the employer can't sue you. Etc, etc.

    Do you think convicted criminals should be allowed to vote? Children?
    Last edited by Madison320; 08-07-2018 at 12:41 PM.

  26. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    I think we should welcome opposing viewpoints, I just wish he'd be honest about his postion.
    I agree that we should be tolerant of a wide spectrum of viewpoints but some are so wrong that if people continue to promote them after being shown the error of their ways they become an impediment to the movement and a liability to the site, however I was not necessarily suggesting that The Vampire be banned, I was asking him to explain why he comes here since his views are so contrary to ours.

    The answer that he won't admit to is that he comes here to disrupt the movement and seduce weak members and potential converts to his philosophy.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  27. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I agree that we should be tolerant of a wide spectrum of viewpoints but some are so wrong that if people continue to promote them after being shown the error of their ways they become an impediment to the movement and a liability to the site, however I was not necessarily suggesting that The Vampire be banned, I was asking him to explain why he comes here since his views are so contrary to ours.

    The answer that he won't admit to is that he comes here to disrupt the movement and seduce weak members and potential converts to his philosophy.
    Yeah, it is strange that he would want to post here for so long and so frequently. I can't imagine joining democratic underground and posting there at all, let alone for years.

  28. #414
    Maybe it's time to learn a bit about the REAL history of South Africa.

    The Apartheid was NOT good and it was NOT better than now- both suck. But the suckiness was initially caused by land-grabbing Europeans- then continued by diamonds and gold-grabbing Europeans.


    It's an issue that has led to fears of chaos ravaging South Africa, with Australia even offering to fast-track humanitarian visas for persecuted white farmers.

    But the incendiary issue of land reform is as vast and complex as South Africa itself. So complex that the final two words in the nation’s anthem — “our land” — show how sensitive it is.

    The issue raised its head again in South Africa in February this year, when Julius Malema, the ever-controversial leader of the radical political party Economic Freedom Fighters, tabled a motion in parliament to allow the seizing of land without compensation.

    Debates immediately broke out among politicians, members of the media and ordinary citizens, on the internet, on radio and television stations, and in offices and backyards throughout the country.

    Land ownership, land reform, land redistribution and land restitution — these are vast, complex issues, as vast and complex as South Africa itself.

    If you truly want to understand why the mere mention of “land reform” is like a spark to kindling, you must take a look at the history of this beautiful and tormented land.

    SOUTH AFRICA’S TROUBLED HISTORY

    Ever since the Dutch colonialist Jan van Riebeeck first set his clogs on the shores of southern Africa in 1652, the issue of land ownership has been a cause of conflict — a stark, tense thread running throughout the tapestry of South Africa’s history.

    Van Riebeeck, an employee of the VOC (Dutch East India Company), was sent to the Cape to establish a refreshment station for passing VOC ships.

    The Dutch settlement was immediately at odds with locals: the pastoral Khoikhoi, and later the foraging San.

    Through impositions of Western-style bureaucracy by the Dutch and a series of wars, the Europeans gained control of large swathes of fertile Cape land.

    The arrival of the British in 1795, followed 25 years later by the first of the 1820 Settlers, only worsened the situation as the 4000 mainly artisanal British workers were granted land for farms in the Eastern Cape.

    The intention was for them to act as a buffer zone between the eastern border of the British colony and the local Xhosa population. Naturally, this led to warfare — over land.

    As the British population increased and the colonial government imposed laws that the now-homegrown population of Dutch-descended farmers did not particularly like, a series of journeys inland, known as treks, began to take place.

    This movement of around 14,000 Boer (farmer) families between 1835 and 1846 is known as the Great Trek (we like the names of things to mean what they say).

    As these thousands of people moved into the interior, they inevitably came into contact with the local people: Ndebele, Xhosa, Zulu, Sotho, Pedi.

    Although some of these encounters were peaceful, fighting was most often the result.

    Then in 1852 and 1854, the independent Boer countries of the South African Republic and the Orange Free State were, respectively, agreed to by the British, who were feeling satisfied that the Boers were now too far to bother with and that their land had nothing they wanted anyway.

    That is, until the discovery of diamonds and gold, which brought the British back in a hurry. After — you guessed it — more warfare, the British finally triumphed in the second South African War (1899-1902, also known as the Boer War) and established the Union of South Africa in 1910.

    And what about the indigenous population during this time? Although they did achieve victory in some battles with the Europeans, they were ultimately overwhelmed by more advanced military technology and ruthless bureaucracy.

    The most severe insult yet came with the passing of the Natives Land Act in 1913, which restricted black property ownership to just 7 per cent of the land of South Africa.

    Although this amount was later increased to 13 per cent, the land black people were allowed to own was restricted to rural “native reserves”.

    Under the Apartheid regime, the Group Areas Act of 1950 brought the system of apartheid (literally “separateness”) to urban areas: assigning the different racial groups to different residential and business zones.

    If black people had to work in the white areas (and, let’s face it, of course they did), they had to carry a pass, identifying themselves and their employer.


    This worked out well for the ruling whites, as they got all the benefits of black labour without any of the annoying business of having to provide services or infrastructure for them.

    A devastating consequence of the Group Areas Act were the forced removals of black populations from areas that had been designated “white”, such as District Six in Cape Town and Sophiatown in Johannesburg.

    Iconic images of graffiti reading “WE WONT MOVE” (sic) and black and white photographs of razed buildings and people being borne away on the backs of trucks, clutching all their worldly possessions, bear testament to those times.

    This legacy of apartheid, to use a well-worn phrase, is clearly visible in towns and cities throughout South Africa.


    Spend any time driving around and you will notice the stark differences between areas — no longer regulated by race, but by income, which, as a result of the racial policies which divided South Africa for so long, has largely been determined by race in terms of historical access to resources.

    “White privilege” is a real thing.

    THE TRUTH ABOUT LAND REFORM

    In the new democratic dispensation, to use another well-worn phrase, the principle of land reform is provided for in the Constitution, but with important caveats: It states land may be expropriated when it is within the public interest to do so, and that the amount, time and manner of the compensation made must be “just and equitable”.

    While the policy of the ruling African National Congress (ANC) has been market-driven “willing buyer, willing seller”, this is not in fact part of the Constitution, and many critics, more than 20 years after the end of apartheid, agree that it has not particularly been a success.

    This brings us all the way up to the present.

    Many people tend to have a knee-jerk reaction of fear to any discussion of land reform. Images of Zimbabwe-style farm invasions — which took place 20 years ago under then-president Robert Mugabe’s rule and turned the breadbasket of the southern African region into a basket case — fill people’s minds with panic and impulses to flee the country.

    Yet most of the issues around land today have to do with access to well-located land within cities.

    The recent land invasions that have taken place have been in cities and towns: Pretoria, Midrand, Hermanus.

    People are fed up with unequal access to urban land which sees many lower-income families relegated to the outskirts of the cities, and having to spend 40 per cent of their income on unreliable public transport to get to their places of employment.

    Land reform is a difficult, complex topic — it touches the people of South Africa right on their heritage and identity.

    The 1955 Freedom Charter included the clause: “The land shall be shared among those who work it!”

    The final declaration of the national anthem is “South Africa — our land!”

    The very concept of belonging is tied to the land. When one looks at the history, it is easy to see that we have a historical wrong that urgently needs to be righted.

    But the best way to do that? The debate will rage on.

    Tarryn Harbour is a former journalist and South African resident.
    https://www.news.com.au/finance/econ...6b6c70e03290a1

    Tarryn is also a white woman, which should also give some perspective.
    There is no spoon.

  29. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Maybe it's time to learn a bit about the REAL history of South Africa.

    The Apartheid was NOT good and it was NOT better than now- both suck. But the suckiness was initially caused by land-grabbing Europeans- then continued by diamonds and gold-grabbing Europeans.



    https://www.news.com.au/finance/econ...6b6c70e03290a1

    Tarryn is also a white woman, which should also give some perspective.
    That's a nice one sided leftist perspective you have there.
    Even if we take it at face value the Boer regime was still better than the communist one that followed it, we are about to see genocide and mass starvation like what happened in Zimbabwe.
    Do you favor giving all the land in America back to the Injuns?
    Do you support Israeli Zionism?
    Do you support the communist regimes in S. Africa and Zimbabwe?
    What makes you think you know better than this guy?

    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  30. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That's a nice one sided leftist perspective you have there.
    Even if we take it at face value the Boer regime was still better than the communist one that followed it, we are about to see genocide and mass starvation like what happened in Zimbabwe.
    Do you favor giving all the land in America back to the Injuns?
    Do you support Israeli Zionism?
    Do you support the communist regimes in S. Africa and Zimbabwe?
    What makes you think you know better than this guy?

    According to the Prince, this article is not exactly what was said- and stop your silly ASS-uming & calling names.

    But royal household spokesperson Prince Thulani Zulu told News24 that the king was quoted out of context.

    “He said he was born in 1948 and he had lived through apartheid and he knew the good and the bad of the system.

    “He said there were good and bad things that were done during apartheid and he was reflecting [on] some of those issues.”

    Zulu said because he was born in that era, he is able to reflect on both the apartheid and democratic governments.

    “The king also speaks out when there is good and bad in the democratic government because it too is not perfect.”
    https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...ng-it-20151207
    There is no spoon.



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  32. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    According to the Prince, this article is not exactly what was said- and stop your silly ASS-uming & calling names.


    https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/N...ng-it-20151207
    So he crawfished under pressure, the new statement doesn't really contradict the old one.

    I didn't call you names I called your source leftist but if the shoe fits so well that you want to wear it be my guest.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  33. #418
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post

    The Apartheid was NOT good and it was NOT better than now- both suck.
    So then do you agree that they need a better system, that unlimited democracy is not working? I'm not saying that some foreign power needs to intervene. Just from a theoretical standpoint.

  34. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    So then do you agree that they need a better system, that unlimited democracy is not working? I'm not saying that some foreign power needs to intervene. Just from a theoretical standpoint.
    I have stated many times that democracy is dangerous:

    -Two wolves & one lamb deciding what's for dinner.

    The original constitutional republic, that was supposed to govern the US was:

    -Two wolves & one lamb deciding what's for dinner, but lamb's not on the menu.

    Unfortunately, we have pretty much lost that.
    There is no spoon.

  35. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    The US.
    Except for, yknow, that slavery thing. Which ended around the same time as the limited voting rights.

    But, if your contention is that those with voting rights voted themselves individual rights and freedom, yep, that's how it works.

    And then they gradually voted in more and more government power to protect themselves from the people who had no voting rights.
    Last edited by TheCount; 08-08-2018 at 11:19 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

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