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Thread: Amash on Trump-Putin Press Conference

  1. #1

    Amash on Trump-Putin Press Conference

    Now he's actually criticizing Rand and Ron




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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by milgram View Post
    Now he's actually criticizing Rand and Ron

    The press conference was bizarre but in the end it's just words. I think Amash is overreacting.
    Support Justin Amash for Congress
    Michigan Congressional District 3

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by EBounding View Post
    The press conference was bizarre but in the end it's just words. I think Amash is overreacting.
    What’s the full context? Did Amash give a press conference? What policy exactly is he talking about?
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    What’s the full context? Did Amash give a press conference? What policy exactly is he talking about?
    Sorry, he's talking about the Trump and Putin press conference in Helsinki:



    Here's a copy of the whole thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Amash
    A thread for my fellow libertarians on the #HelsinkiSummit:

    We say diplomacy and dialogue are good. Few Americans would disagree with that. Peace and prosperity can’t be secured without communication and engagement.

    For my part, I have urged presidents to meet with the leaders of Russia, North Korea, Cuba, and other countries to build better relationships. These interactions make it possible to change behavior, to turn foes into friends.

    I believe that this aspect of libertarianism—the desire to seek friendship and peace whenever possible—is among its most appealing qualities.

    We must not, however, fall for the logical fallacy that because diplomacy and dialogue are good, @POTUS’s performance at the press conference was good.

    Yet, that’s precisely the false conclusion some are making. I’ve heard it said that anyone who disapproves of what took place at the press conference is pro-war or anti-Trump. No, some of us are just concerned about the bizarre behavior of our president at a press conference.

    I suspect that many of the people defending the press conference performance did not watch it in its entirety—or at all. If they had, they would know that it didn’t achieve the desired effect of bringing America and Russia closer; in fact, it did just the opposite.

    The impression it left on me, a strong supporter of the meeting, is that “something is not right here.” The president went out of his way to appear subordinate. He spoke more like the head of a vassal state.

    Perhaps it was just the president showing insecurity, once again, over the legitimacy of his election. Perhaps it was a sign of a more troubling entanglement with Putin. Whatever the case, the press conference was counterproductive to the goal of improving relations.

    Even the president ultimately recognized that the press conference did not go well, as he tried to correct his remarks that exonerated Russia. Oddly, it took him more than a day to do so. One wonders why the White House didn’t act more quickly if it were simply a misstatement.

    To suggest that anyone critical of the president’s conduct opposes diplomacy is to employ a strawman argument. It’s virtue signaling, not libertarianism.

    The virtue being signaled is opposition to all things “neocon.” If someone doesn’t like how the meeting transpired, it must be because that person is a Deep State anti-Trump neocon warmonger, etc.

    When a libertarian’s political prime directive becomes “owning the neocons” (or “owning the libs”) rather than advancing libertarian ideals, then that person undermines libertarianism as a philosophy.

    The general public are not more likely to see themselves as libertarian when, for the sake of “owning the necons,” prominent figures associated with libertarianism conflate libertarian-style governance and Trump-style governance.

    People then connect our principles to the president’s failings, which have nothing to do with libertarianism.

    Nor are libertarian values advanced when the effect of the president’s press conference—set aside the intent—is to further isolate our country from Russia.

    The widespread reaction on Capitol Hill, for example, has been to rally around the intelligence community. People are proposing resolutions of support for the FBI, despite its dubious track record and unconstitutional activities, particularly with respect to the #4thAmendment.


    Worse yet, thanks to the press conference, we’re likely to see more ineffectual sanctions bills and resolutions of condemnation against Russia, which will serve primarily to stunt further efforts at diplomacy and dialogue.

    We libertarians need to be smarter and more effective in our approach. Acting like partisans—pushing demagoguery and tribalism—is a self-defeating proposition. Stand strong on your principles; you’ll find most Americans standing with you.
    Support Justin Amash for Congress
    Michigan Congressional District 3

  6. #5
    He's either a little confused or just playing to his base in his district.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
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  7. #6
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    Amash lives on a different planet.

  8. #7
    off the meds?
    FLIP THOSE FLAGS, THE NATION IS IN DISTRESS!


    why I should worship the state (who apparently is the only party that can possess guns without question).
    The state's only purpose is to kill and control. Why do you worship it? - Sola_Fide

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  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    Amash lives on a different planet.
    Trump is a big government authoritarian, there is no doubt about that. Thus there is strong reason for a libertarian to oppose him in general.

    The mistake Amash is making is confusing praise for things Trump does that may coincide with “libertarian” ideas, and praise for Trump as a whole. Ron and Rand have both criticized and opposed Trump on many issues, and supported him with he moves in a direction in which they agree. They are making the best of the situation, and it does position Rand to have influence with Trump, which has paid off in actions like health insurance associations.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    He's either a little confused or just playing to his base in his district.
    Yeah I think he is partially playing to his base--Amash got more votes than Trump in his district. And I think he's responding to people online and not necessarily Rand or Ron.
    Support Justin Amash for Congress
    Michigan Congressional District 3

  12. #10
    So, I must live on the Amash planet, then.

    I, too, thought Trump did the exact right thing, but masterfully f'd it up. And to make it worse, he looked like a hostage reading his backtracking statement. I thought Ron and Rand were right to give Trump praise for doing the right thing, but they ignored the mistakes he made. Glad to see Amash isn't doing that.


    You don't go into a press conference looking like Putin's lapdog. You don't let him off the hook for "meddling" in the internal affairs of our country. If anything, you say, "Putin and I discussed ways to get the nations of the world to stop meddling in the affairs of other countries - something that ALL of our intelligence agencies do. Putin says they didn't do it?? Pfft. We ALL do it!"

    Would he take heat for that statement? Of course. But it's FAAAAAARRRR more accurate and it would prevent this ridiculous "rally 'round our intel community" thing you've got going on. In total, I think this is a big nothing and on the whole, it was a good thing if you take the long view. But it could have been so much better. Kudos to Amash for giving the praise and the concern.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    So, I must live on the Amash planet, then.

    I, too, thought Trump did the exact right thing, but masterfully f'd it up. And to make it worse, he looked like a hostage reading his backtracking statement. I thought Ron and Rand were right to give Trump praise for doing the right thing, but they ignored the mistakes he made. Glad to see Amash isn't doing that.


    You don't go into a press conference looking like Putin's lapdog. You don't let him off the hook for "meddling" in the internal affairs of our country. If anything, you say, "Putin and I discussed ways to get the nations of the world to stop meddling in the affairs of other countries - something that ALL of our intelligence agencies do. Putin says they didn't do it?? Pfft. We ALL do it!"

    Would he take heat for that statement? Of course. But it's FAAAAAARRRR more accurate and it would prevent this ridiculous "rally 'round our intel community" thing you've got going on. In total, I think this is a big nothing and on the whole, it was a good thing if you take the long view. But it could have been so much better. Kudos to Amash for giving the praise and the concern.
    The only thing Trump did wrong was that he didn't come right out and accuse our intelligence agencies of being liars and crooks, Amash has it backwards, he is either a TDS/Russiaphobia victim or he is selling his soul to pander to those who are.

    This is not the first bizarre thing Amash has done and I'm not just talking about Trump issues, he isn't reliable.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
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    A Zero Hedge comment

  14. #12
    We libertarians need to be smarter and more effective in our approach. Acting like partisans—pushing demagoguery and tribalism—is a self-defeating proposition. Stand strong on your principles; you’ll find most Americans standing with you.
    yea Amash wouldnt fit in on these forums

  15. #13
    I'm with Rand. Trump is either going to imperfectly push for peace or embrace interventionism, he has flirted with both. Criticizing his performance if you support diplomacy doesn't push him more into the Amash camp, it tells him to listen to Bolton if he wants to be popular. If Ron or Rand were president they would have met with Putin and received this same flak. About time to err on the side of humility in foreign relations.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    I'm with Rand. Trump is either going to imperfectly push for peace or embrace interventionism, he has flirted with both. Criticizing his performance if you support diplomacy doesn't push him more into the Amash camp, it tells him to listen to Bolton if he wants to be popular. If Ron or Rand were president they would have met with Putin and received this same flak. About time to err on the side of humility in foreign relations.
    ^^^THIS^^^
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #15
    Is he going to do a clarifying tweet hours before Putin is in d.c? Am curious...

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    I'm with Rand. Trump is either going to imperfectly push for peace or embrace interventionism, he has flirted with both. Criticizing his performance if you support diplomacy doesn't push him more into the Amash camp, it tells him to listen to Bolton if he wants to be popular. If Ron or Rand were president they would have met with Putin and received this same flak. About time to err on the side of humility in foreign relations.
    I get it - and I think Amash gets it, too. In the long view, Trump is doing the right thing here and Amash said as much. But I find it troubling how very few of us are acknowledging how "imperfect" his push for peace really is. Ron and Rand would have done the right thing, too, and would have received much of the same flavor of criticism, but the ensuing conversation would be MUCH different. The fact is this: Trump placated Russia in an obvious denial of the truth. Neither Ron nor Rand would have done that.

    Does Russia try to influence our elections? Of course they do. (notice I use "influence" or "meddle" and not the media's term, "interfere") All major nations try to influence elections in other countries. Hell, we have Radio Free Europe and Radio Free Asia to do that very thing! And that says nothing about our clandestine activities! The idea that Russia didn't try to influence us by sharing information is laughable. And yet, when given the opportunity to talk about this, he totally whiffed. If Obama would have done this, most of us would be able to recognize it. Amash is just giving us a reminder to take off the partisan blinders. Ron and Rand are choosing to ignore it for the larger picture - that it's better than trying to ramp up tensions like the media wants us to do.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire



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  20. #17
    I guess I don't know what Amash thinks should be done at this point. Yes the prez gave strange, conflicting comments to placate Putin --now what? Is Amash going to file articles of impeachment? Subpoena the interpreter? Or is this just something to post on Twitter for fun?
    Last edited by EBounding; 07-20-2018 at 06:55 AM.
    Support Justin Amash for Congress
    Michigan Congressional District 3

  21. #18
    loveshiscountry
    Member

    How does he vote.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    I get it - and I think Amash gets it, too. In the long view, Trump is doing the right thing here and Amash said as much. But I find it troubling how very few of us are acknowledging how "imperfect" his push for peace really is. Ron and Rand would have done the right thing, too, and would have received much of the same flavor of criticism, but the ensuing conversation would be MUCH different. The fact is this: Trump placated Russia in an obvious denial of the truth. Neither Ron nor Rand would have done that.

    Does Russia try to influence our elections? Of course they do. (notice I use "influence" or "meddle" and not the media's term, "interfere") All major nations try to influence elections in other countries. Hell, we have Radio Free Europe and Radio Free Asia to do that very thing! And that says nothing about our clandestine activities! The idea that Russia didn't try to influence us by sharing information is laughable. And yet, when given the opportunity to talk about this, he totally whiffed. If Obama would have done this, most of us would be able to recognize it. Amash is just giving us a reminder to take off the partisan blinders. Ron and Rand are choosing to ignore it for the larger picture - that it's better than trying to ramp up tensions like the media wants us to do.
    Beggers can't be choosers. For once a president did the right thing and Amash is bitching about perfection, I'm sorry, I agree with Amash most of the time but he should sthu here. Nothing Trump did regarding meeting Russia undermined our liberty or peace, so I give him a 100% grade on that summit. I'm not saying he's Dr Paul but effectively speaking at that meeting he did the same thing. Now he's threatening Iran, Amash should have saved his criticism for that kind of thing and given praise when deserved. Instead he's being a whiny princess and the pea who won't be happy with anything, still support the guy but he's really being annoying.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by EBounding View Post
    I guess I don't know what Amash thinks should be done at this point. Yes the prez gave strange, conflicting comments to placate Putin --now what? Is Amash going to file articles of impeachment? Subpoena the interpreter? Or is this just something to post on Twitter for fun?
    It's just something to post on twitter for fun. Lately he's leaning towards giving his opinions on things that are really pointless and a waste of time in the grand scheme. Such as whether tax breaks = subsidies.
    This person doesn’t believe in economics. State budgets are balanced. A special tax break for one entity means other taxpayers must pay higher taxes for the same services or receive fewer services for the same tax dollars. A special break is economically equivalent to a subsidy.
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...x-break-debate
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    It's just something to post on twitter for fun. Lately he's leaning towards giving his opinions on things that are really pointless and a waste of time in the grand scheme. Such as whether tax breaks = subsidies. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...x-break-debate
    Yeah, I think Amash tries a bit too hard to appear as an independent centrist, but if it helps to get him re-elected then great. I have to draw the line though when it comes to undermining potential peace with another nuclear power. His comments just placate #TheResistance™ people on Twitter that don't want to see him get re-elected anyway.
    Support Justin Amash for Congress
    Michigan Congressional District 3



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