Boom. You can't out tariff us. Period. This Trump knows.

[devil21]

All driven by the "I want my cheap $#@!, and I want it now" globalibertarians.

There's a kind of important part you're missing there....the currency continues to lose value and purchase less, while wages stagnate and prices rise. What is someone supposed to do? Pay more and like it? Nothing will be fixed as long as the monetary unit is controlled by bankers that constantly devalue the currency. Everything else is a symptom of that problem. You do understand that it was our own government that started the Chinese product trade, yes? Kissinger as SecState and then Nixon as Pres. It wasn't "globalibertarians" that went to China in the 70's to set this into motion.

Ron Paul tried to explain all of this but it seems some still want to blame the users of the devaluing currency instead of the currency system itself and the ones pulling the strings behind the curtain.

[TheCount]

What encourages the Chinese to refuse to negotiate is the lamentations and cries from the crony corporatists and the US Chamber of Commerce. As long as they publically cry uncle and undermine negotiations, the Chinese will not give an inch. They see the weakness.

Those bastards. Can't they understand that taxes are for their own good and the good of the Nation?

If they were real Patriots, like @TheTexan they would relish every opportunity that they have to give money to the government.

[Ender]

There's a kind of important part you're missing there....the currency continues to lose value and purchase less, while wages stagnate and prices rise. What is someone supposed to do? Pay more and like it? Nothing will be fixed as long as the monetary unit is controlled by bankers that constantly devalue the currency. Everything else is a symptom of that problem. You do understand that it was our own government that started the Chinese product trade, yes? Kissinger as SecState and then Nixon as Pres. It wasn't "globalibertarians" that went to China in the 70's to set this into motion.

Ron Paul tried to explain all of this but it seems some still want to blame the users of the devaluing currency instead of the currency system itself and the ones pulling the strings behind the curtain.

1000%!

Heaven forbid we should develop free trade & REAL capitalism.

[osan]

You sell to us five to one. This is a WAR they will not win. They know they can't. But, they had to try. Now it is a matter of allowing them to "save face" and renegotiate.

In this, most Asians are weak, silly creatures - Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, and so forth. The whole notion of "face" is infantile and we should be thankful that God, or whomever, planted that idiocy into the cultures of the Asian hordes. Otherwise, they'd be a bigger problem.

So I say play to it. Let them have it, so long as we get what we want and don't give away anything essential. Whatever Trump may be truly about when all the bull$#@! of politics are swept aside, let him continue to work toward American advantage. As I always repeat, abundant are our failings and other problems, but the fact is that ninety percent or more of the advances in the human condition have come to the world courtesy of American ingenuity and drive, and that is no exaggeration. Despite at least 100 years for which it may be credibly claimed that the rest of the world has had the opportunity to follow suit and fly high, not even Europe has matched us for sheer creativity, capacity, and drive to bring to the world that which makes life better. Without us, the world would still be living in 1820 conditions, whether for better or worse.

I hope Trump undoes all the giveaways that past presidents traitorous handed to China on a platter. Think of it - has we not literally handed EVERYTHING to the Chinese, they would yet exist as they did in 1940. WE made China, not the Chinese.

[osan]

There's a kind of important part you're missing there....the currency continues to lose value and purchase less, while wages stagnate and prices rise. What is someone supposed to do? Pay more and like it? Nothing will be fixed as long as the monetary unit is controlled by bankers that constantly devalue the currency. Everything else is a symptom of that problem. You do understand that it was our own government that started the Chinese product trade, yes? Kissinger as SecState and then Nixon as Pres. It wasn't "globalibertarians" that went to China in the 70's to set this into motion.

Valid points, all.

At the philosophical extreme, we are all to blame for this because "we" sat idly as that vile subhuman degenerate Henry Kissinger gave the keys to the world economy to China on a silver platter. In more direct terms, the progressives traitorously fed American prosperity to China in piecemeal fashion as they similarly trimmed away the prosperity that Americans built for themselves over the previous 200 years without the help of anyone. Our standard of living has been wicked away by devils as your points suggest. We may thank ourselves for expecting the snake not to bite.

So long as we look to, and comply with "government", the agents of which cannot be trusted to the ends of our noses even on the best of days, we will continue our slide into less-than status as the rest of the world laughs at how complacent, stoopid, and timid we have become.

[Brian4Liberty]

All driven by the "I want my cheap $#@!, and I want it now" globalibertarians.

“Free trade” and “libertarianism” are simply “principles” of convenience for the powerful corporatists and their lobby groups and think tanks.

Slowly but surely over the past 40 years or so, the main business of the major corporations has changed. It helps to realize what their actual business has become. They are importers and US salesmen. Their business is global in that they import to the US. Their business is mostly US domestic on the sales side.

That is why their true interests are in zero US import tariffs, but they don’t care what the Chinese tariffs are, as they don’t move product to China. This is not economically sustainable, as it causes a loss of wealth for the US consumers and working classes, who are producing less and less, and buying imported goods. At some point, there has to be something produced in the US, and not just sold and served.

Now there is one glaring exception. The US still produces food and exports it. Which is exactly why the Chinese focus has been on tariffs on US food and feed. It’s the only place they have leverage.

Can the only product produced in the US be food? Can the only productive jobs in the US be farming? This explains the loss of wealth for the bottom 50% and destruction of the middle class.

And of course, behind it all, the Fed, US debt and monetary inflation have helped to create and sustain this whole trend. US debt, the other great “export” from America.

Edit: And we can’t forget US arms sales as an “export”. But how much of that production is actually outsourced now too?

[AZJoe]

Tariffs all around says the commissar of trade. The Soviet trade minister will save us with tariff welfare, tariff socialism, taxation. More government - yeah, that's the ticket!
So the solution to government created problems must be more government.
Always the siren's call of the of the devoted fanatical worshipper of the religious cult of the almighty state.

[Brian4Liberty]

Tariffs all around says the commissar of trade. The Soviet trade minister will save us with tariff welfare, tariff socialism, taxation. More government - yeah, that's the ticket!
So the solution to government created problems must be more government.
Always the siren's call of the of the devoted fanatical worshipper of the religious cult of the almighty state.

Straw man. No one here wants permanent higher tariffs.

The stated intent of the current tariffs is to negotiate lower tariffs and freer trade all around. Open up the closed markets. Guess we’ll have to see what the new agreements look like when it’s all over.

Now if you want to just dream about a world that will never exist in reality, we can go back to what Ron Paul proposed in 2007, which is to completely eliminate income tax, and instead fund government with low, flat tariffs. It would be nice relative to what we have today, but it isn’t going to happen.

[Zippyjuan]

Straw man. No one here wants permanent higher tariffs.

The stated intent of the current tariffs is to negotiate lower tariffs and freer trade all around. Open up the closed markets. Guess we’ll have to see what the new agreements look like when it’s all over.

Now if you want to just dream about a world that will never exist in reality, we can go back to what Ron Paul proposed in 2007, which is to completely eliminate income tax, and instead fund government with low, flat tariffs. It would be nice relative to what we have today, but it isn’t going to happen.

NAFTA II (the USMC Agreement) was basically NAFTA I (the "worst agreement in history") except Canada will now buy a few more gallons of milk from the US and Mexico will pay auto workers at least $15 an hour. And the tariffs on Canada and Mexico are still in place.

[Brian4Liberty]

NAFTA II (the USMC Agreement) was basically NAFTA I (the "worst agreement in history") except Canada will now buy a few more gallons of milk from the US and Mexico will pay auto workers at least $15 an hour. And the tariffs on Canada and Mexico are still in place.

Yeah, we’ll take your word on that.

[TheCount]

Yeah, we’ll take your word on that.

Whose word will you take?

[nobody's_hero]

The problem with trying to convince people "tariffs are taxes" is that you're only going to convince people who consume, specifically those who consume foreign goods. You aren't likely to convince the savers, investors, or producers, who see themselves largely unaffected by these tariffs. Those folks have been getting the $#@!-end of the stick for decades.

Cutting income (productivity) taxes and taxing consumption is sort of a reversal of what we've seen, where government has seemingly geared all trade and tax policy towards increasing dependency and encouraging slothfulness. It's by design, I'm sure. A proud, independent, self-sustainable people cannot be easily controlled, but if you can scare them into believing they'll lack shiny new trinkets to buy with their food stamps and credit card debt . . . well, this seems to be the narrative of the MSM. I wonder why.

The idea that not being able to consume, consume, consume is gonna crash our economy all seems very Keynesian to me.

[TheCount]

The problem with trying to convince people "tariffs are taxes" is that you're only going to convince people who consume, specifically those who consume foreign goods. You aren't likely to convince the savers, investors, or producers, who see themselves largely unaffected by these tariffs. Those folks have been getting the $#@!-end of the stick for decades.

They may see themselves as being largely unaffected, but that's completely false. The tariffs are on raw and unfinished materials such as steel and wood in addition to finished goods. That means that these taxes do not only affect those who consume foreign goods, but affect any producer who uses raw and unfinished materials, the savers and investors who get a piece of those producers' profits, the workers involved in the production of finished goods, and the consumers who purchase those American made finished goods. Construction, for example, is affected by tariffs on Canadian wood, and steel tariffs have hit a number of companies.

[Ender]

Whose word will you take?

How about Ron Paul's?

Tariffs Are Not the Answer
By Ron Paul

Ron Paul Institute

March 13, 2018

President Trump’s planned 25 percent tariff on steel imports and 10 percent tariff on aluminum imports may provide a temporary boost for those industries, but the tariffs will do tremendous long-term damage to the American and global economies. Tariffs raise the price of, and reduce demand for, imported goods. Tariffs ensure the preferences of politicians, instead of the preferences of consumers, determine how resources are allocated. This reduces economic efficiency and living standards.

Some justify these economic inefficiencies as being worth it to save American jobs. This ignores how tariffs increase costs of production for industries reliant on imported materials to produce their products. These increased costs lead to job losses in those industries. For example, President Trump’s proposed steel tariff could cost nearly 40,000 jobs in the steel-dependent auto manufacturing industry. Tariffs also cause job losses in industries reliant on exports. This is especially true if — as is likely to be the case — other countries respond to President Trump’s actions by increasing tariffs on US products.

Many of President Trump’s critics do not themselves support true free trade, which is the voluntary exchange of goods and services across borders. Instead, they support the managed (by government) trade of NAFTA and the World Trade Organization (WTO). NAFTA and the WTO promote world government and crony capitalism, not free markets. Any libertarian or free-market conservative who thinks the WTO promotes economic liberty should remember that the WTO once ordered Congress to raise taxes!

Foreign manufacturers may make convenient scapegoats for the problems facing US industry. However, the truth is that most of the problems plaguing American businesses stem from the US government. American businesses are burdened by thousands of federal regulations controlling every aspect of their operations. The tax system also burdens businesses. Until last year’s tax reform bill, the US had the highest corporate tax rates in the developed word. The tax reform bill lowered corporate taxes, but the US corporate tax rate is still higher than that of many other developed countries.

The United States not only spends more on “defense” than the combined budgets of the next eight biggest spending countries, but also spends billions subsidizing the defense of developed counties like Germany, Japan, and South Korea. Bringing US troops home from these countries is an excellent place to start reducing spending on militarism.

The biggest cause of our economic problems is the Federal Reserve. America’s experiment with fiat currency has enabled a system based on private and public debt. This makes trade imbalances inevitable as the US government needs foreign investors to purchase its debt. Foreign investors get the money to purchase the US government’s debt by selling products to American consumers. A trade war could cause foreign investors to stop buying US debt instruments and could end the dollar’s world reserves currency status. This would cause a major economic crisis — but at least it would stop our shores from being flooded with “cheap foreign goods.”

President Trump’s claim that trade wars can be easily won is as credible as the neoconservative claim that the Iraq War would be a cakewalk. A trade war would likely push the global economy into a recession or worse. Instead of imposing costs on American businesses and consumers and putting those whose livelihoods depend on imports out of a job, President Trump should address the real causes of our economic problems: the welfare-warfare state, the IRS, and the Federal Reserve.

[TheCount]

How about Ron Paul's?

Haven't you heard? He's a crony capitalist bent on undermining and weakening America and preventing it from becoming Great Again.

What encourages the Chinese to refuse to negotiate is the lamentations and cries from the crony corporatists and the US Chamber of Commerce. As long as they publically cry uncle and undermine negotiations, theChinese will not give an inch. They see the weakness.

[Brian4Liberty]

And the closest offer ever proposed to what beltway libertarians claim to want...

President Trump offered European nations and other countries a zero-tariff deal as a way out of an escalating trade war, but so far he has no takers ...
...
“Ultimately that’s what you want. You want tariff-free, no barriers, and you want no subsides because you have some countries subsidizing industries, and that’s not fair,” he told them. “So you go tariff-free, you go barrier-free, you go subsidy-free. That’s the way you learned at the Wharton School of Finance.”
...
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...iff-trade-off/

[nobody's_hero]

They may see themselves as being largely unaffected, but that's completely false. The tariffs are on raw and unfinished materials such as steel and wood in addition to finished goods. That means that these taxes do not only affect those who consume foreign goods, but affect any producer who uses raw and unfinished materials, the savers and investors who get a piece of those producers' profits, the workers involved in the production of finished goods, and the consumers who purchase those American made finished goods. Construction, for example, is affected by tariffs on Canadian wood, and steel tariffs have hit a number of companies.

Again, it's really like we're trying to force people to see that they're affected, but despite the claims, the apocalypse isn't likely to happen. Quite the contrary. American lumber companies might see opportunity where none existed before. American steel/aluminum producers as well. Just because there are tariffs, does not mean the laws of supply/demand cease to exist and people just give up meeting demand. It is a smaller market, yes, but if your mind is geared more towards production than worshiping at the altar of consumerism, then it's a great time to open a steel plant or harvest some trees.


Instead of freaking out over 'where'd muh cheap crap go?', the attitude has shifted towards "I smell money." I'd say that's a much healthier attitude for Americans to have.

[Swordsmyth]

There's a kind of important part you're missing there....the currency continues to lose value and purchase less, while wages stagnate and prices rise. What is someone supposed to do? Pay more and like it? Nothing will be fixed as long as the monetary unit is controlled by bankers that constantly devalue the currency. Everything else is a symptom of that problem. You do understand that it was our own government that started the Chinese product trade, yes? Kissinger as SecState and then Nixon as Pres. It wasn't "globalibertarians" that went to China in the 70's to set this into motion.

Ron Paul tried to explain all of this but it seems some still want to blame the users of the devaluing currency instead of the currency system itself and the ones pulling the strings behind the curtain.

So we should disguise the loss of wealth by addicting ourselves to welfare from our enemies?
That is how to boil a frog, eventually the people can't afford anything anyway and they are now dependent on foreign enemies for their needs.

[Swordsmyth]

Foreign government intervention is as bad or worse than domestic government intervention and you can't have free trade and a regulatory state.

[Danke]

Assuming government needs some funding (like courts and military). I'll take a flat tariff tax and eliminate income taxes.

[devil21]

So we should disguise the loss of wealth by addicting ourselves to welfare from our enemies?

As opposed to what? Losing wealth by spending more on goods, instead of less? It is a no-win situation and the system of constantly devaluing currency is designed that way, intentionally to strip wealth and concentrate it back into the hands of those that issued the "money" in the first place. And the notion that tariffs coming from the Trump administration are supposed to fix anything is ridiculous since he has surrounded himself with the very people that take orders from those that were responsible for current state-of-affairs in the first place.

That is how to boil a frog, eventually the people can't afford anything anyway and they are now dependent on foreign enemies for their needs.

As it was designed to do and has been a smashing success. No one legally owns anything in this country since few alive have ever been able to pay for anything. I don't expect you to understand what I'm talking about though...

[Swordsmyth]

As opposed to what? Losing wealth by spending more on goods, instead of less? It is a no-win situation and the system of constantly devaluing currency is designed that way, intentionally to strip wealth and concentrate it back into the hands of those that issued the "money" in the first place. And the notion that tariffs coming from the Trump administration are supposed to fix anything is ridiculous since he has surrounded himself with the very people that take orders from those that were responsible for current state-of-affairs in the first place.



As it was designed to do and has been a smashing success. No one legally owns anything in this country since few alive have ever been able to pay for anything. I don't expect you to understand what I'm talking about though...

[TheCount]

Again, it's really like we're trying to force people to see that they're affected, but despite the claims, the apocalypse isn't likely to happen. Quite the contrary. American lumber companies might see opportunity where none existed before. American steel/aluminum producers as well. Just because there are tariffs, does not mean the laws of supply/demand cease to exist and people just give up meeting demand. It is a smaller market, yes, but if your mind is geared more towards production than worshiping at the altar of consumerism, then it's a great time to open a steel plant or harvest some trees.

Great time to open a steel plant? With someone else's money, sure. The profitability of that plant is entirely reliant on government aid. What happens when the tides of populism shift?

Instead of freaking out over 'where'd muh cheap crap go?', the attitude has shifted towards "I smell money." I'd say that's a much healthier attitude for Americans to have.

Where do you suppose this extra money is coming from, and who do you suppose is getting it?

Government is directly picking winners and losers. It's not roses all around for everyone.

[Swordsmyth]

Great time to open a steel plant? With someone else's money, sure. The profitability of that plant is entirely reliant on government aid. What happens when the tides of populism shift?



Where do you suppose this extra money is coming from, and who is earning it?

Government is directly picking winners and losers. It's not roses all around for everyone.[/COLOR]

As opposed to the Chinese government picking winners and losers?

[TheCount]

As opposed to the Chinese government picking winners and losers?

I'm fully aware that your ideal American government resembles the Chinese government.

[Swordsmyth]

I'm fully aware that your ideal American government resembles the Chinese government.

Not hardly.

That would be you.

Of course your real preference is for a global government run by the ChiComs.

[nobody's_hero]

As opposed to what? Losing wealth by spending more on goods, instead of less? It is a no-win situation and the system of constantly devaluing currency is designed that way, intentionally to strip wealth and concentrate it back into the hands of those that issued the "money" in the first place. And the notion that tariffs coming from the Trump administration are supposed to fix anything is ridiculous since he has surrounded himself with the very people that take orders from those that were responsible for current state-of-affairs in the first place.

Or gaining wealth from production.

But why is it only viewed from the consumer's standpoint? No one ever got rich by consuming. Production creates wealth. If consumption creates wealth then people drowning in credit card debt must be living the dream.

That's what's so frustrating about the whole debate. As long as people get cheap crap, no one really cares what happens to the producers, The entrepreneurs, The workers. We've gone from one extreme to the other since the days of Smoot-Hawley protectionism, to this new-age notion that you don't actually have to work hard or risk anything to increase your lot in life, and being able to buy a bunch of junk = wealth(?).

[nobody's_hero]

Great time to open a steel plant? With someone else's money, sure. The profitability of that plant is entirely reliant on government aid.

Apparently, so was the Chinese industry. That's why their economy is collapsing right now. Of course, this would have never been realized if we hadn't elected a president who was gonna fight back in a trade war that's been raging on one side for decades. Otherwise the illusion would have just continued on it's merry way.

[TheCount]

Apparently, so was the Chinese industry.

I'm glad that you can see the similarities between what you want and the Chinese system. In other words, you're arguing for Chinese-style central economic control.

That's why their economy is collapsing right now.

If 6% growth is a collapse, sign me up!

Of course, this would have never been realized if we hadn't elected a president who was gonna fight back in a trade war that's been raging on one side for decades.

Yes, if only we'd known that we could tax ourselves to prosperity earlier! This strategy has certainly never been tried before in the history of the nation... Why if, for example, we'd known that we could protect American car manufacturers from international competition in the 70s and 80s, we might have tried that, and I'm sure that it would have worked out great for everyone involved if we had!

[TheCount]

Not hardly.

That would be you.

Of course your real preference is for a global government run by the ChiComs.

Ooh, good answer; is this the famed "I know you are but what am I" defense?

One of us argues for government control of the economy, information, and "culture." The other does not. "Nuh uh" doesn't change that.