Cognitive Dissonance (Some *food* for thought)

[tod evans]

No moral trepidation or internal mental struggle here.

Animals are resources. They are not cute, anthropomorphized "furry people".

I'll eat a fluffy bunny, an adorable piglet, my own dog if it came down to it.

Especially kittens!

The Chinese got it right serving them on rice.

[Brian4Liberty]

One person's cognitive dissonance is another person's ying and yang. Sometimes there are two imperatives for survival that are both necessary, but sometimes come into conflict.

Humans completely aside, almost all animals are social, and take care of their young. This compassion is imperative to survival, especially in the case of offspring. But if an animal wants themselves and those offspring to survive, they must eat. Thus, both the compassion and the need to eat are built in.

Many animals extend that compassion to others outside of their family unit, and to other species. There are many examples of this. Some species are vegetarian, but they still might kill other animals for other reasons.

Why kill? There is a fairly straight forward list:

- Food.
- Threat.
- Competition.
- Practice.
- Pleasure.

Think of a cat. They might kill for any and all of those reasons. Why not kill? Once again, compassion is one reason not to, another might be conservation of energy. No reason to do it if it takes effort. Plus some species can cooperate to a certain extent, even if indirectly in mutual defense. Herbivores might not kill for food, but competition and threat defense are both survival imperatives.

Cognitive dissonance is not really the issue, it's just sometimes conflicting imperatives for survival and priorities. Some people lose sight of the big picture and go out of balance one way or another. Radical animal rights groups have gone full compassion, choosing to attempt to bypass other natural instincts. Neoconservatives focus so much on threats and competition that they become paranoid.

[lilymc]

No, you didn't answer the question.. Where is the money coming from? Did he win the lottery? In other words, where did the guy get enough money that he could buy a farm, raise animals and not sell them for meat? A lot of people buy farms, raise animals, sell the meat and still go out of business. So you have yet to explain how this is a sustainable business model..

And for the fifth time, I NEVER said the animals would go out of existence completely, I said they 99.99% of them would go out of existence. Count the number of animal sanctuaries and pet goats that exist now, then count the number of animals being raised for slaughter and you will find 99.999% exist on a for-profit basis.

I guess you didn’t click on the video embedded in that tweet? He converted his family farm which was handed down to him, into an animal sanctuary. The amazing and cool thing is that in recent years, more and more farms are converting into animal sanctuaries. I personally believe this is part of a global awakening, which is happening now in regard to animals and the food we eat, and fits in with what the Bible says, on how it will be when the earth goes back to the way it was meant to be. (see Isaiah 11:6-9)

As for how he keeps it funded, I answered that in post #50. He gets regular donations from like-minded people, and his “ministry” (for lack of a better word) is growing every day. I’m sure he also partially funds it out of his own pocket too.

[tod evans]

The people who run the sanctuaries. Are you asking how they fund it? Many of them are funded by like-minded people who want to see the animals live in a safe, clean, loving and peaceful environment.

This guy is awesome. He does an amazing job with the sanctuary, and I love following his page on Instagram or Facebook, because it feels like you’re right there with him in giving those animals a good life, who otherwise would be trapped in the horrors of the animal industries.

I could post tons of examples of people who rescue animals, and prove that farm animals are really not much different than dogs, they all have unique personalities, they all have the same desire to live, be happy, and enjoy life, just like you and me.

Tuesday and Thursday the local auction barn has literally hundreds of cattle pass across the auction block, feel free to send semi's and cash, market price is $1.06.

I'm sure the locals would cut you a deal if to bought 100 head or more.

[tod evans]

Yeah, what's up with rabbit being less foody than horse? Rabbit is great. And they are none too hot as pets, IMO.

I like rabbit.

Their poop makes great fertilizer for your garden too...

[Swordsmyth]

I guess you didn’t click on the video embedded in that tweet? He converted his family farm which was handed down to him, into an animal sanctuary. The amazing and cool thing is that in recent years, more and more farms are converting into animal sanctuaries. I personally believe this is part of a global awakening, which is happening now in regard to animals and the food we eat, and fits in with what the Bible says, on how it will be when the earth goes back to the way it was meant to be. (see Isaiah 11:6-9)

As for how he keeps it funded, I answered that in post #50. He gets regular donations from like-minded people, and his “ministry” (for lack of a better word) is growing every day. I’m sure he also partially funds it out of his own pocket too.

[lilymc]

I know you’re kind of joking, but if you really believe that I think it’s very sad that you think it’s foolish to go from treating animals as commodities destined for death, to providing them a safe environment for people to be a part of, and for him to follow his conscience. And by the way, that guy is clearly living a happy, successful life, and he is loved by tons of people… all you have to do is read the comments on his videos on Facebook or Instagram, he gets multiple marriage proposals a day and tons of positive feedback from pretty much everyone.

[Swordsmyth]

I know you’re kind of joking, but if you really believe that I think it’s very sad that you think it’s foolish to go from treating animals as commodities destined for death, to providing them a safe environment for people to be a part of, and for him to follow his conscience. And by the way, that guy is clearly living a happy, successful life, and he is loved by tons of people… all you have to do is read the comments on his videos on Facebook or Instagram, he gets multiple marriage proposals a day and tons of positive feedback from pretty much everyone.

The fools are those who donate money so he can have more pets than Elly May Clampett.

He a has a pretty sweet racket going.

[heavenlyboy34]

Almost everything he said was either demonstrably false or a misunderstanding. It is asinine to think that the only reason they exist is because people eat them...which not only implies that we have to eat them in order to keep them existing, but that their short miserable life is worth it for them? As I said to him, we can raise animals in a safe loving environment, not for the purpose of exploiting and eating them, but simply to let them live a good life. And that is what is happening more and more.

Of course the numbers will go down, because we are currently bringing into existence billions of animals for the sole purpose of exploiting and killing them. But they will still exist, and to claim otherwise is foolish.

What he said isn't nuanced, but there's science to domestication. http://theconversation.com/how-did-w...e-answer-46907 "cute" pigs are around mostly because people bred and made them that way.

[tod evans]

The fools are those who donate money so he can have more pets than Elly May Clampett.

He a has a pretty sweet racket going.

One of the few who keep their family farm in today's world that's a good thing no matter how he does it...

Some folks sell beef others get paid not to sell it.

Wonder if the donations go up when the market does?

[merkelstan]

I keep trying to give danno more rep but i am forbidden! Forbidden, I say!

[lilymc]

The fools are those who donate money so he can have more pets than Elly May Clampett.

He a has a pretty sweet racket going.

That’s a horrible thing to say, you don’t know the guy, you probably have never visited his pages. You are projecting onto him your mindset which evidently doesn’t allow you to believe that people can do something good for animals, for the right reasons, not for self-serving reasons.

And the people who donate to him are not fools. Because they too love animals and want others to see what he is trying to show people… that they’re not what we’ve been brainwashed to think.. they are sentient beings, not very different from dogs, they want to be loved, happy, and they actually do love human beings once they realize they can trust them.

[RJB]

If a pig is an intellectual giant, then let the pig use logic to defend itself.

After thinking it over from a relativity aspect, I am willing to change my position: If militant PETA activists are considered intelligent enough for rights, pigs should definitely be considered as well. Not only do pigs seem more intelligent, but they have better manners from what I've seen from demonstrations on YouTube.

[Krugminator2]

I watched until the end and didn't see any worthwhile questions.

I would think nothing of running over a chicken if it was in the way. I would not hesitate for a second if there were multiple chickens in the road that were slowing me down to just run them over. Not even a hesitation. I would fine the guy who called 911 over a chicken in the road in jail, as well as anyone else who calls 911 over a stuck animal.

I used to kill seagulls with golf balls. I still enjoy cornering chipmunks and shooting them with a pellet gun. It's fun. No ethical qualms. They're animals. They have no rights.

[Swordsmyth]

One of the few who keep their family farm in today's world that's a good thing no matter how he does it...

Some folks sell beef others get paid not to sell it.

Wonder if the donations go up when the market does?

When the collapse comes I doubt he will keep feeding all those critters for nothing.

[tod evans]

That’s a horrible thing to say, you don’t know the guy, you probably have never visited his pages. You are projecting onto him your mindset which evidently doesn’t allow you to believe that people can do something good for animals, for the right reasons, not for self-serving reasons.

And the people who donate to him are not fools. Because they too love animals and want others to see what he is trying to show people… that they’re not what we’ve been brainwashed to think.. they are sentient beings, not very different from dogs, they want to be loved, happy, and they actually do love human beings once they realize they can trust them.

My next door neighbor has about 50 head and 1/2 dozen pigs, would the feelgood folks like to out bid the market?

I'm pretty certain he's all for highest bidder, heck he'd probably keep 'em all on his dirt for a sweet monthly stipend that exceeded his current profit margin...

[Swordsmyth]

That’s a horrible thing to say, you don’t know the guy, you probably have never visited his pages. You are projecting onto him your mindset which evidently doesn’t allow you to believe that people can do something good for animals, for the right reasons, not for self-serving reasons.

I admire his enterprise.

And the people who donate to him are not fools. Because they too love animals and want others to see what he is trying to show people… that they’re not what we’ve been brainwashed to think.. they are sentient beings, not very different from dogs, they want to be loved, happy, and they actually do love human beings once they realize they can trust them.

If animals are people then they should earn their keep, the people donating are giving their hard earned money away to support welfare bums.
If animals are animals then the people are donating money so he can keep more pets than he can afford on his own.

[lilymc]

It’s very ironic to me that pretty much the only replier to this thread who restored my faith in humanity (even though we don’t fully agree) is an atheist.

[Swordsmyth]

After thinking it over from a relativity aspect, I am willing to change my position: If militant PETA activists are considered intelligent enough for rights, pigs should definitely be considered as well. Not only do pigs seem more intelligent, but they have better manners from what I've seen from demonstrations on YouTube.

Since PETA people value animals more than humans I would say they have defected to the animal kingdom and that as you say some animals have more rights than they do since they behave better and serve a useful purpose.

[Swordsmyth]

It’s very ironic to me that pretty much the only replier to this thread who restored my faith in humanity (even though we don’t fully agree) is an atheist.

That is because atheists believe we are random chemicals that accidentally got together and that therefore there is no fundamental difference between animals and humans.

[lilymc]

I admire his enterprise.


If animals are people then they should earn their keep, the people donating are giving their hard earned money away to support welfare bums.
If animals are animals then the people are donating money so he can keep more pets than he can afford on his own.

No one said animals are people, enough with the strawmen and silly trollish comments.

As for the second thing you said, once again you are projecting your mindset onto him.

There’s a huge difference between simply having a pet, and doing something for the purpose of helping animals, educating the public, and inspiring and encouraging others to make better choices.

Here, I am going to paste the mission & vision from the barn sanctuary website:

Mission

Barn Sanctuary is a hands-on animal sanctuary dedicated to rescuing, rehabilitating and caring for farm animal refugees. This includes any animals that have been abused, abandoned, sentenced to death or are victims of natural disasters. We educate the public about the horrific treatment of animals raised and slaughtered by modern day farm factories, and the positive impact that a plant-based diet can have on the environment and our health.

Vision

We envision a world in which animals are treated with empathy and compassion; a world where interacting with animals inspires people to make healthier dietary choices for the sake of animals and the environment. We strive to a lead a new and diverse generation of people towards a vegan lifestyle.

[Swordsmyth]

No one said animals are people, enough with the strawmen and silly trollish comments.

As for the second thing you said, once again you are projecting your mindset onto him.

There’s a huge difference between simply having a pet, and doing something for the purpose of helping animals, educating the public, and inspiring and encouraging others to make better choices.

Here, I am going to paste the mission & vision from the barn sanctuary website:

Mission

Barn Sanctuary is a hands-on animal sanctuary dedicated to rescuing, rehabilitating and caring for farm animal refugees. This includes any animals that have been abused, abandoned, sentenced to death or are victims of natural disasters. We educate the public about the horrific treatment of animals raised and slaughtered by modern day farm factories, and the positive impact that a plant-based diet can have on the environment and our health.

Vision

We envision a world in which animals are treated with empathy and compassion; a world where interacting with animals inspires people to make healthier dietary choices for the sake of animals and the environment. We strive to a lead a new and diverse generation of people towards a vegan lifestyle.

So he is enslaving himself to lesser lifeforms and wishes others to join him?
If they aren't pets and they aren't food then they can fend for themselves.

[lilymc]

That is because atheists believe we are random chemicals that accidentally got together and that therefore there is no fundamental difference between animals and humans.

Um hello, he (VIDEODROME) said that he eats meat, so I highly doubt he thinks there is no difference between humans and animals.

But I’ll let him speak for himself.

Besides, you are implying something about the biblical worldview which is simply not true... yes, it is true that humans and animals are not the same, that humans are created in the image of God and that we are above the animals. I have said that all along. But it does not follow that because we are above the animals, we can exploit them, and treat them cruelly, and think of them as nothing more than commodities.

As I said from the start, I wanted to stick with the topic of cognitive dissonance, and not get into big debates on veganism… But I do want to share this quote about dominion, because I believe that tons of Christians have it completely wrong.

[lilymc]

So he is enslaving himself to lesser lifeforms and wishes others to join him?
If they aren't pets and they aren't food then they can fend for themselves.

Oh my gosh. I am honestly surprised that you said that. I had more faith in you than that.

Anyway, I have to go… I’ve spent way too much time here today, and have neglected some things that I need to do today.

If I can, I’ll try to come back to this thread tonight.

[Swordsmyth]

Um hello, he said that he eats meat, so I highly doubt he thinks there is no difference between humans and animals.

But I’ll let him speak for himself.

Animals eat animals, humans eat animals, animals eat humans, there isn't much difference there for an atheist.
The only difference is survival of the fittest, humans are more fit.

Besides, you are implying something about the biblical worldview which is simply not true... yes, it is true that humans and animals are not the same, that humans are created in the image of God and that we are above the animals. I have said that all along. But it does not follow that because we are above the animals, we can exploit them, and treat them cruelly, and think of them as nothing more than commodities.

As I said from the start, I wanted to stick with the topic of cognitive dissonance, and not get into big debates on veganism… But I do want to share this quote about dominion, because I believe that tons of Christians have it completely wrong.

GOD gave Adam and Eve clothes made from animal skins so I think he does intend them to be a resource, he also told Noah to bring more "clean" beasts than "unclean" beasts so he had either already given mankind rules about what animals to eat or he was preparing to do so after the flood.

However we are responsible to treat animals decently and will be held accountable for any abuse.

[Swordsmyth]

Oh my gosh. I am honestly surprised that you said that. I had more faith in you than that.

Anyway, I have to go… I’ve spent way too much time here today, and have neglected some things that I need to do today.

If I can, I’ll try to come back to this thread tonight.

TTFN

[VIDEODROME]

One of my concerns is whether a Vegan type diet is an incomplete diet and can throw of nutrition as well as even digestion.

I think moderate meat or other animal products like Free Range Eggs is okay from a diet perspective unless after reading more I have reason to change my mind. I think there have been anecdotes of vegans having deficiencies in nutrition like B12 or Iron. In other cases, the vegan diet comes with recommendations for supplements to prevent these deficiencies.

In a way, were stuck with this because it's how things evolved. As I said before though, I'm open to the idea of trying to be more mindful of where food comes from. I don't think there is any reason for harsh treatment of the animal or poor conditions of confinement when trying to get eggs or dairy products. They should also be killed as humanely or quickly as possible and the guy in the video I posted was trying his best to do that.

With that said, I'm am open to trying a Lab Grown Burger if that every becomes a viable product.

[lilymc]

One of my concerns is whether a Vegan type diet is an incomplete diet and can throw of nutrition as well as even digestion.

I think moderate meat or other animal products like Free Range Eggs is okay from a diet perspective unless after reading more I have reason to change my mind. I think there have been anecdotes of vegans having deficiencies in nutrition like B12 or Iron. In other cases, the vegan diet comes with recommendations for supplements to prevent these deficiencies.

Since you brought that up… Here's the thing. We've been lied to, or indoctrinated to believe that animal products are necessary and healthy. The reality is, not only can you get everything you need from a healthy, balanced vegan diet, but there is lots of evidence that it is the healthiest diet, as it not only prevents disease, but has been known to reverse disease.

But just so you don't have to take my word on it, I'm going to post quotes from a number of health organizations and doctors.

Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics

It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage. Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity.

https://jandonline.org/article/S2212...192-3/fulltext


The Mayo Clinic

A well-planned vegetarian diet (see context) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.


Harvard Medical School

Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.


Dietitians of Canada

A healthy vegan diet can meet all your nutrient needs at any stage of life including when you are pregnant, breastfeeding or for older adults.


British Dietetic Association

Well planned vegetarian diets (see context) can be nutritious and healthy. They are associated with lower risks of heart disease, high blood pressure, Type 2 diabetes, obesity, certain cancers and lower cholesterol levels. This could be because such diets are lower in saturated fat, contain fewer calories and more fiber and phytonutrients/phytochemicals (these can have protective properties) than non-vegetarian diets. (...) Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of life and have many benefits.


The British National Health Service

With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.

There's more like those, but now I'm going to post some quotes by doctors. Oh, but before I do, you brought up B12. B12 is made by bacteria, but because soil is not as good as it used to be, what a lot of people don't know is that livestock are often injected with B12... So meat eaters are not getting it from the animal but from the injection that was given to the animal… Why not skip the middleman and just take a supplement or eat plant-based foods fortified with B12?

More quotes…

Cardiologist Kim Williams, M.D, who was president of the American College of Cardiology:




“Western culture is hell-bent on ignoring, disbelieving, and, in some cases, actively twisting the truth about what we should be eating—so much so that it can be hard for us to believe that we’ve been lied to all these years.”

“A plant-based diet is more likely to produce good health and to reduce sharply the risk of heart problems, cancer, diabetes, osteoporosis, gallstones, and kidney disease.”

– T. Colin Campbell, PhD


“Collectively, the media; the meat, oil, and dairy industries; most prominent chefs and cookbook authors; and our own government are not presenting accurate advice about the healthiest way to eat.”

– Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn, MD


“The most ethical diet just so happens to be the most environmentally sound diet and just so happens to be the healthiest.”

― Dr. Michael Greger


“The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this century, all natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined. If beef is your idea of “real food for real people” you’d better live real close to a real good hospital.”

– Neal Barnard, MD

And this is from a cross-section of 96 studies:

"The overall analysis among cross-sectional studies reported significant reduced levels of body mass index, total cholesterol, LDL-cholesterol, and glucose levels in vegetarians and vegans versus omnivores."

"This comprehensive meta-analysis reports a significant protective effect of a vegetarian diet versus the incidence and/or mortality from ischemic heart disease (−25%) and incidence from total cancer (−8%). Vegan diet conferred a significant reduced risk (−15%) of incidence from total cancer."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26853923

And more.. peer-reviewed research articles:

"Numerous reputable studies (e.g. EPIC Oxford, Adventist health Study 1&2, and GEICO Study) described distinct advantages of vegetarian or vegan diets compared to diets containing meat and other foods of animal origin (Appleby et al. 1999; Davey et al. 2003; Le and Sabaté 2014; Mishra et al. 2013; Tonstad et al. 2013).


Health related benefits of vegetarian diets range from lower mortality from all-causes (Li 2014; Orlich et al. 2013) to lower body weight (BW), Body-Mass-Index (BMI) (Williams 1997), blood pressure (Yang et al. 2011), risk of obesity, and incidence of type 2 diabetes (Chiu et al. 2014; Zhang et al. 2010), as well as an enhanced antioxidant status capable of reducing exercise-induced oxidative stress (Kim et al. 2012; Trapp et al. 2010).

In a way, were stuck with this because it's how things evolved. As I said before though, I'm open to the idea of trying to be more mindful of where food comes from. I don't think there is any reason for harsh treatment of the animal or poor conditions of confinement when trying to get eggs or dairy products. They should also be killed as humanely or quickly as possible and the guy in the video I posted was trying his best to do that.

With that said, I'm am open to trying a Lab Grown Burger if that every becomes a viable product.

Well, as a believer I have an entirely different view. Mankind started off not eating eat, for quite a long time, and meat eating came later, but not due to evolution, in my view. We are definitely not stuck with this, because it is completely unnecessary for the overwhelming majority of the world's population, the only reason people do it is because of taste, habit, tradition and still holding onto outdated false beliefs that it is necessary.

Lab grown meat is most likely going to be part of the future, because so many people don't want to give up eating meat, but like you, do not want to participate in the cruelty that goes on every day. Of course there are people who think it's weird, so time will tell on how popular that will be. But one thing is for sure, the market for plant-based 'faux' meat is growing like crazy, as more and more people are waking up to the horrors of the animal industries, and the realization that plant-based is healthier and much better for the environment.

[lilymc]

Also, there are lots of older people who have been vegan for decades, and are active and super healthy.

Here's an example, a 103-year-old young former doctor who has been vegan for more than 50 years, still lives an active life, and he retired at age 95!




And since you mentioned the concern for deficiencies earlier, here is pro surfer Tia Blanco sharing her blood test results after four years as a vegan:




Here's another after seven years being vegan...

[VIDEODROME]

Well, the weird thing is my video was also sourced from The Mayo Clinic while your source from The Mayo Clinic says the diet can work if well planned and to see a context that isn't linked. I'm curious if perhaps their Context includes supplements?

I bring that up not necessarily to challenge your view, but as an example of how much grey area there is for individuals to sift through. I guess for me, it's not quite settled and there are many anecdotal stories going either way, but I can consider revisiting the issue and researching it more. I did see another YouTube video of a Vegan who claimed to have experienced nutrition deficiency mostly related to B12.

I will say that I do think Americans probably way over consume meat and I consider it a good idea to cut back. It would be nice if reduced meat consumption could lead to less frantic meat processing trying to shove and many animals as possible through some crazy throat slicer like with the chickens. Maybe that wouldn't be as necessary if meat consumption and production could slow down at least. I think meat production at the scale we have is hard on the environment and probably really hard on the employees who have to oversee all this.

Otherwise, I also have to meal plan as a Truck Driver which is another added challenge. I work locally at the moment, but some days I'm so busy I can hardly get away from the truck.