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Thread: Ketogenic diet

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by opal View Post
    Ya know. .there is a way that this set of results would be almost valid.

    Several years ago, hubby had the flu.. 4 days of misery. He drank a little water and a little pediolite. (sp?) The first thing he wanted when he felt better was a porterhouse.
    He's diabetic and while he was sick, his numbers were outstanding. 80-95 or so. After he ate the porterhouse.. the whole thing, he waited the prerequisite hour and tested his sugar. It was over 300.. just from conventionally farmed cow.. no sauce.. no sides.

    The cow eats sugary grains .. you eat sugary grains.

    Grass fed meat does not do this.
    Great point!

    Same applies to dairy, I found.
    My website: https://www.theherbsofthefield.com/

    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.” ~ Charles Dickens



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    That wasn't the claim. At least from what I heard. The claim was that there was an increased risk of diabetes, as the level of animal products increases.

    And I've heard that before, from a number of sources. Here is a study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3942738/ "Meat consumption is consistently associated with diabetes risk."

    Here's something else to look at: https://www.webmd.com/diabetes/news/...s-risk-study#1

    And this: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/0...etes-risk.html

    An excerpt:
    "Several previous studies have found that higher intake of total protein, especially animal protein, are associated with long-term risk of developing diabetes," said Dr. Frank Hu, from the Harvard School of Public Health in Boston. Hu, who was not involved in the new study, researches prevention of diabetes through diet and lifestyle.

    "Substantial amounts of animal protein come from red meat and processed meat, which have been consistently associated with increased risk of diabetes," he told Reuters Health in an email.

    Keto may have short-term results, but I have zero doubt that in the long term, it is dangerous.
    You didn't link to the study. You linked to a biased article about the study. The study is here. It doesn't say what you or the article writer want it to say.

    Among other things, it defends dairy and non-beef fleshmeat (esp. fish)
    Besides total and animal protein, prior research suggests that the protein source could be of relevance. Type 2 diabetes risk is associated with higher meat consumption, particularly red and processed meat (1113). Type 2 diabetes risk is reported to be lower in subjects with high dairy use (1417) and/or high plant product consumption, especially of legumes (18) and nuts (19). Data on the relation between fish consumption and type 2 diabetes reached mixed conclusions (2022), and a recent study in the EPIC-InterAct case cohort reported no association (23). It is unclear whether it is the protein or other nutrients in such food groups that explain the association with type 2 diabetes.
    Notice also the participant choice and method are flawed:

    Participants

    We used a case-cohort design, including incident diabetes cases (n = 12,403) and a representative subcohort (n = 16,154, including 778 cases of incident type 2 diabetes) selected from the EPIC cohort (24). After exclusion of participants with missing information on dietary data (n = 117; 70 case subjects, 47 subcohort) or other missing covariates, i.e., physical activity, educational, and smoking status (n = 790; 357 case subjects, 433 subcohort), and participants who fell in the top or bottom 1% of the “energy intake/energy requirement ratio” (n = 619; 339 case subjects, 280 subcohort), our analysis included 26,253 participants (10,901 incident type 2 diabetes case subjects and a subcohort of 15,352 participants including 736 cases of incident type 2 diabetes).
    All EPIC study participants gave written informed consent, and the study was approved by the national ethics committees and the International Agency for Research on Cancer.

    Protein Intake and Other Variables

    Dietary intake, over the 12 months before enrollment, was assessed by self- or interviewer-administered dietary questionnaires (mainly food frequency questionnaires [FFQ]), developed and validated within each country, to estimate the usual individual food intakes of the study participants (for more detail, see Riboli et al. [25]). Protein intake (g/day) was adjusted for total energy intake by the residual method (26) and categorized in quintiles according to the data of the subcohort. As part of EPIC, standardized information on lifestyle exposures was collected by self-administered national questionnaires at baseline (25). Physical activity during work and leisure time was classified in four categories according to the Cambridge Physical Activity Index (27). Weight, height, and waist circumference were recorded using a standard protocol during a visit at the research center, except in Oxford (U.K.) and France, where only self-reported height and weight were available (25).

    I suggest finding something better as evidence. ~hugs~
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    You didn't link to the study. You linked to a biased article about the study. The study is here. It doesn't say what you or the article writer want it to say.

    Among other things, it defends dairy and non-beef fleshmeat (esp. fish)

    Notice also the participant choice and method are flawed:



    I suggest finding something better as evidence. ~hugs~
    I posted 4 studies (in addition to the video that went over 9 different studies) so I don't know which one you're talking about. But it was probably about red meat, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to mention that it defended dairy and fish. If anything, that shows that it wasn't a biased study conducted by vegans.

    Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't feel like going on and on with this debate. The Keto thing will die out eventually, because it's not sustainable (unless it's vegan Keto, which is a thing) and the long-term effects are not going to be pretty… Not unless one is eating a lot of plant-based foods with it, instead of primarily animal products. And the future is vegan. It's growing like crazy, plus it is prophesied.
    Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

    Romans 12:2

  6. #34
    edit:dupe post :/
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 06-24-2018 at 03:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I posted 4 studies (in addition to the video that went over 9 different studies) so I don't know which one you're talking about. But it was probably about red meat, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to mention that it defended dairy and fish. If anything, that shows that it wasn't a biased study conducted by vegans.

    Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't feel like going on and on with this debate. The Keto thing will die out eventually, because it's not sustainable (unless it's vegan Keto, which is a thing) and the long-term effects are not going to be pretty… Not unless one is eating a lot of plant-based foods with it, instead of primarily animal products. And the future is vegan. It's growing like crazy, plus it is prophesied.

    Brian Wilson makes a good point about that.
    https://www.ketovangelist.com/is-keto-sustainable/
    Is keto sustainable?

    By Brian Williamson

    I recently had a conversation with a doctor, an eye doctor, who is keto-friendly. During this conversation, he made the statement that keto (the Ketogenic Diet and Lifestyle) is unsustainable.

    My only response to that was, “We disagree about that.” And I was ready to let it go.

    Not because I didn’t feel comfortable with the subject matter, but because I didn’t want to get into an argument while he was checking my eyesight.

    But it got me thinking about that particular line of argument. When someone says, “It’s not sustainable,” what are they really saying?

    What does “sustainable” really mean?

    As best as I can tell, based upon the people who ask the question, it means, “Can you be keto for the rest of your life?” Can you, for the rest of your life, eat high-fat, moderate-protein, and very low-carb food? And on the surface, this might seem like a fair question.
    But it’s not a fair question.
    It’s a stupid one.

    First of all, it’s asking if you can predict the future. Can you say, with all certainty that you will stick to the strictest ketogenic definition of food for the remainder of your life? Or will you have to, on occasion, make due with some fat-free cheese? Or some white meat chicken? Or a salad without any fat in it? Sometimes we have to make the best of a bad situation. Sometimes we don’t have a say in what gets served. We always have a choice about whether or not we eat it, though, but that’s another discussion.

    So it’s a stupid question, because you can’t predict the future. But you can be as keto-prepared as possible.
    Second, it’s asking if you’ll ever eat non-keto foods. So, let’s pretend that you’re at a restaurant, and you ask all the right questions about the meal you’re ordering: real butter, no sugar, no breading, etc. And you eat and enjoy.

    But then you find out later that there was, in fact, canola oil, sugar, and breading in the meal. So now what? Are you still keto? Do the skeptics win? Is the sky falling?

    Clearly, you’re still keto. Did it knock you out of ketosis? Maybe. So what? You do the best you can. You’re intentional about your efforts and you stay disciplined. Sometimes crap happens, but you do the best you can.

    So it’s a stupid question, because you cannot control misinformation. But you can be as keto-prepared as possible.

    Third, it’s asking if you can do without sugar and bread for the rest of your life. I mean, really, that’s probably the main point of the question. People are so convinced that they cannot live without sweet stuff and bread that they refused to accept any reality wherein those things are not staples.

    Because of the proliferation of stevia, erythritol, soul bread, and the like, one can be keto and enjoy some facsimile of sugar and bread. But the truth is, you don’t need (knead?) any of it. You can absolutely live without sweet stuff or bread stuff. I eat sweet stuff and occasional bread stuff. But if someone else didn’t make it, I wouldn’t care. I don’t need it and it’s not necessary.

    So it’s a stupid question, because it assumes the crap that is making people fat and sick are required for some kind of quality of life.
    Okay, so what’s the point? Is keto actually sustainable?
    Well, only you can determine that. It is for me. It’s healthy. It’s easy. It’s simple.
    Why wouldn’t it be sustainable?

    That’s a great question.
    I don't see the future being vegan outside the Great Fasts unless vegans can come up with a practical and effective way to supplement micronutrients.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    IAnd it is a well-known fact that anything that promotes meat and dairy is almost always funded by the meat and dairy industries.
    That's not a fact. It is completely untrue. There are zillion University studies showing positive benefits of cutting carbs.

    Vegetables are clearly good for you. Eating a vegetarian diet is probably healthy. It isn't a diet that I could follow. I eat nothing but steak, burgers and butter with occasional bacon and some eggs. That's it. That diet has helped me lose weight and it also makes me far more productive. I don't have highs and lows. I think more clearly. And I only need like five and a half hours of sleep. It works for me. I highly recommend it.

    I suspect a lot of your views are based far more on your morality than they are on science.

  9. #37
    Indeed, if you prefer a more structured diet, do not bother spending your budget on your weight loss regimen. The ideal protein diet is your solution. Protein diet plan consists of 4 phases and wants to make your blood sugar levels stable while you lose your extra weight. When your diet is low in fat, then the only available fat will become the body fat. That’s how you start losing weight. The process is called ketosis.

    it is my favorite type of diets that might not best suit everyone. To find your best diet you are most likely to try a lot of them. But it worth it if you find the one.



  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Brian Wilson makes a good point about that.



    Don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows

  11. #39
    The Carnivore Diet and Autoimmune Disorders

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...mune-Disorders
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It is safe and effective short-term, long-term you might want to incorporate some of the principles of the paleo diet like having pasture raised animals and grass fed meats and organic produce as often as possible.

    Paleo gives you more leniency on carbs, you can do a low carb paleo that would also be keto friendly or moderate carb paleo diet that goes off the keto reservation a little. I also like to incorporate dairy into paleo since I'm not lactose intolerant at all..
    Absolutely what he said
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope



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  14. #41
    What about smoked chicken? Do you think it is a good dish for this diet? I would like to try cooking it soon, as I have jsut found a really nice recipe on https://homus.org/how-to-smoke-chicken/ I think you will enjoy it too, give it a shot!
    Last edited by pearsile; 07-27-2018 at 02:21 AM.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by alivecream View Post
    What can you say about the Keto diet? is it really effective? Is it safe?
    I tried it before. I think it works. However, I stopped because I was getting headaches from time to time.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by pearsile View Post
    What about smoked chicken? Do you think it is a good dish for this diet?
    A couple times a week or every day?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  17. #44
    Yes it is safe and effective if you do it correctly. The first thing that comes up to our mind when we hear that "ketogenic diet" is "fat". But not kind of fat you see, coz' there's so called Good Fat. That comes from some plants I think.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by alivecream View Post
    Yes it is safe and effective if you do it correctly. The first thing that comes up to our mind when we hear that "ketogenic diet" is "fat". But not kind of fat you see, coz' there's so called Good Fat. That comes from some plants I think.
    Actually the worst fats come from plants - soybean oil, corn oil, canola oil, etc..

    The best fats come from wild, grass-fed or pastured animals, grass-fed or pastured dairy, wild seafood, coconut oil, olive oil or avocado oil.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  19. #46
    Dannno, have you ever heard of the Kempner rice diet? A Duke University doctor developed a program to treat people with hypertension. Kept it low protein to loosen the load on the kidneys. Diet consisted of refined carb food sources, since they are low in protein. White rice, fruit, fruit juice and table sugar. The diet not only helped with hypertension and kidney disease, it also reversed diabetes. Put that in your pipe and smoke it lol

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by monte View Post
    Dannno, have you ever heard of the Kempner rice diet? A Duke University doctor developed a program to treat people with hypertension. Kept it low protein to loosen the load on the kidneys. Diet consisted of refined carb food sources, since they are low in protein. White rice, fruit, fruit juice and table sugar. The diet not only helped with hypertension and kidney disease, it also reversed diabetes. Put that in your pipe and smoke it lol
    Looked it up. https://www.drmcdougall.com/2013/12/...the-rice-diet/

    It's just a type of purge diet. It's not a sustainable nutrition plan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Actually the worst fats come from plants - soybean oil, corn oil, canola oil, etc..

    The best fats come from wild, grass-fed or pastured animals, grass-fed or pastured dairy, wild seafood, coconut oil, olive oil or avocado oil.
    I agree that soybean oil, rapeseed oil etc is no good. But it's also important not to heat fat. Going with grass fed beef for the better omega 3 content, and then cooking it, kinda defeats the purpose. Better to eat raw plant sources of fat, unless you are eating your meat raw, like your dairy.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by monte View Post
    I agree that soybean oil, rapeseed oil etc is no good. But it's also important not to heat fat. Going with grass fed beef for the better omega 3 content, and then cooking it, kinda defeats the purpose. Better to eat raw plant sources of fat, unless you are eating your meat raw, like your dairy.
    Cooking with fat has been a legitimate style of cooking in all cultures I know of for most of human history. It's fine if a good fat appropriate for frying is used.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

  24. #50
    just cook with ghee its the best

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by pcgame View Post
    just cook with ghee its the best
    What's the smoke point for it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    What's the smoke point for it?
    485F according to the link.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    485F according to the link.
    LOL, I overlooked it. #facepalm Can't believe I saw everything but that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

  28. #54
    Balanced diet is the best diet. Eating only one type of food means missing out on some nutrients. We are neither carnivores nor vegetarians. Eat some of each. Just avoid too much of any one thing. Moderation.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    I didn't actually read any of the thread. I now mostly just come here to mess with Zip.
    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Balanced diet is the best diet. Eating only one type of food means missing out on some nutrients. We are neither carnivores nor vegetarians. Eat some of each. Just avoid too much of any one thing. Moderation.

    Good advice for health. Doesn't actually work for weight loss.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Good advice for health. Doesn't actually work for weight loss.
    For weight loss, add exercise.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    I didn't actually read any of the thread. I now mostly just come here to mess with Zip.
    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    For weight loss, add exercise.
    That is common folk wisdom. Doesn't actually work. If you put on muscle you will burn more calories, but exercise really doesn't do much for moving the scale.

    https://www.vox.com/2018/1/3/1684543...-burn-calories

    I've found almost nothing works but keto and intermittent fasting.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    That is common folk wisdom. Doesn't actually work. If you put on muscle you will burn more calories, but exercise really doesn't do much for moving the scale.

    https://www.vox.com/2018/1/3/1684543...-burn-calories

    I've found almost nothing works but keto and intermittent fasting.
    That is why the scale is not the best judge. For weight loss, you need to burn more calories than you are taking in. Usually you gained fat because you were eating too much of something. Dieting or fasting can be counter-productive since your body thinks that food is becoming scarce and it slows down you metabolism- increasing your tendency to retain fat. Dieting alone is doomed to failure over the long haul.

    Increasing lean muscle mass can help because lean muscle mass burns more calories even at rest. That means that heavy leg exercises like leg presses or squats can help more than running.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
    I didn't actually read any of the thread. I now mostly just come here to mess with Zip.
    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Dieting or fasting can be counter-productive since your body thinks that food is becoming scarce and it slows down you metabolism- increasing your tendency to retain fat. Dieting alone is doomed to failure over the long haul.
    Fasting doesn't put your body in starvation mode. That is why it works. I am pretty sure I have seen that 1 day fasts actually speed up metabolism.

    The main benefit of keto is it spikes insulin less which means it is harder to store fat. Dieting with large cuts in calories don't work because it slows down metabolism.

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Fasting doesn't put your body in starvation mode. That is why it works. I am pretty sure I have seen that 1 day fasts actually speed up metabolism.

    The main benefit of keto is it spikes insulin less which means it is harder to store fat. Dieting with large cuts in calories don't work because it slows down metabolism.
    Well, yeah-intermittent fasting specifically. There's lots of science behind that. Really strict long term fasting doesn't have any benefit AFAIK, and is probably harmful. It's more of an ascetic practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RPEphesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

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