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Thread: SCOTUS: Online/Internet shoppers can be forced (legally separated) to pay sales tax

  1. #1

    SCOTUS: Online/Internet shoppers can be forced (legally separated) to pay sales tax

    WASHINGTON (AP) — States will be able to force shoppers to pay sales tax when they make online purchases under a Supreme Court decision Thursday that will leave shoppers with lighter wallets but is a big win for states.

    More than 40 states had asked the high court to overrule two, decades-old Supreme Court decisions that they said cost them billions of dollars in lost revenue annually. The decisions made it more difficult for states to collect sales tax on certain online purchases.

    On Thursday, the Supreme Court agreed to overturn those decisions in a 5-4 ruling. The cases the court overturned said that if a business was shipping a customer's purchase to a state where the business didn't have a physical presence such as a warehouse or office, the business didn't have to collect the state's sales tax. Customers were generally responsible for paying the sales tax to the state themselves if they weren't charged it, but most didn't realize they owed it and few paid.

    Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote that the previous decisions were flawed.

    "Each year the physical presence rule becomes further removed from economic reality and results in significant revenue losses to the States. These critiques underscore that the physical presence rule, both as first formulated and as applied today, is an incorrect interpretation of the Commerce Clause," he wrote in an opinion joined by Justices Clarence Thomas, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Samuel Alito and Neil Gorsuch.

    In addition to being a win for states, the ruling is also a win for large retailers, who argued the physical presence rule was unfair. Large retailers including Apple, Macy's, Target and Walmart, which have brick-and-mortar stores nationwide, already generally collect sales tax from their customers who buy online. That's because they typically have a physical store in whatever state the purchase is being shipped to. Amazon.com, with its network of warehouses, also collects sales tax in every state that charges it, though third party sellers who use the site to sell goods don't have to.

    But sellers that only have a physical presence in a single state or a few states have been able to avoid charging customers sales tax when they shipped to addresses outside those states. Online sellers that haven't been charging sales tax on goods shipped to every state range from jewelry website Blue Nile to pet products site Chewy.com to clothing retailer L.L. Bean. Sellers who use eBay and Etsy, which provide platforms for smaller sellers, also haven't been collecting sales tax nationwide.

    Under the Supreme Court's decision Thursday, states can pass laws requiring sellers without a physical presence in the state to collect the state's sales tax from customers and send it to the state.

    Chief Justice John Roberts and three of his colleagues would have kept the court's previous decisions in place. Roberts wrote that Congress, not the court, should change the rules if necessary.

    "Any alteration to those rules with the potential to disrupt the development of such a critical segment of the economy should be undertaken by Congress," Roberts wrote in a dissent joined by Justices Stephen Breyer, Elena Kagan and Sonia Sotomayor.

    The case the court ruled in has to do with a law passed by South Dakota in 2016. South Dakota's governor has said his state has been losing out on an estimated $50 million a year in sales tax that doesn't get collected by out-of-state sellers. Lawmakers in the state, which has no income tax, passed a law designed to directly challenge the Supreme Court's 1992 decision. The law requires out-of-state sellers who do more than $100,000 of business in the state or more than 200 transactions annually with state residents to collect sales tax and turn it over to the state.

    South Dakota wanted out-of-state retailers to begin collecting the tax and sued several of them: Overstock.com, electronics retailer Newegg and home goods company Wayfair. The state conceded in court, however, that it could only win by persuading the Supreme Court to do away with its physical presence rule. After the decision was announced, shares in Wayfair and Overstock both fell, with Wayfair down more than 3 percent and Overstock down more than 2 percent.

    The Trump administration had urged the justices to side with South Dakota.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/supreme-c...--finance.html



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  3. #2
    Well that sucks.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  4. #3
    Why would I not just use brick & mortar stores then ? Pretty much what I do anyway and I can get tax exempt status from most those that I actually buy much from under my farm or the wife's business . Thankfully there is no tax on gold and silver coins in my state so if I wanted to buy that online I am tax exempt .
    Last edited by oyarde; 06-21-2018 at 11:03 AM.
    Do something Danke

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Well that sucks.
    Gorsuch sold me out. Damn.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  6. #5
    Sellers who use eBay and Etsy, which provide platforms for smaller sellers, also haven't been collecting sales tax nationwide.
    Having dabbled in ebay retailing, it would be a royal PITA to make sellers taxmen. :P And taxation is theft.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Having dabbled in ebay retailing, it would be a royal PITA to make sellers taxmen. :P And taxation is theft.
    A lot of the proposals would exempt small sellers who sell B2C, but the eBay and Etsy buyers will all pay.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Having dabbled in ebay retailing, it would be a royal PITA to make sellers taxmen. :P And taxation is theft.
    Instead of hiring revenuers they just force businessmen to do it for them. Business people should sue for state pension and benefits.

  9. #8

    Thumbs down SCOTUS enacts Internet Sales Tax

    These guys hate freedom, imagine that.... Next time you buy something online there is a good chance it will cost a lot more money:



    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/21/u...merchants.html
    __________________________________________________ ________________
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  11. #9
    "Justices Clarence Thomas, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Samuel A. Alito Jr. and Neil M. Gorsuch joined the majority opinion."

    We HAFTA vote Trump for JUDGES!
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  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Gorsuch sold me out. Damn.
    Yeah, I don't know the details, but Gursuch seems a bit wrong on this. Seems like legislating from the bench, as Roberts says...

    Chief Justice John Roberts and three of his colleagues would have kept the court's previous decisions in place. Roberts wrote that Congress, not the court, should change the rules if necessary.
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by EBounding View Post
    "Justices Clarence Thomas, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Samuel A. Alito Jr. and Neil M. Gorsuch joined the majority opinion."

    We HAFTA vote Trump for JUDGES!

    What? You can't feel all the freedom? /s
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by EBounding View Post
    "Justices Clarence Thomas, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Samuel A. Alito Jr. and Neil M. Gorsuch joined the majority opinion."

    We HAFTA vote Trump for JUDGES!
    Not stoked on this one, Gorsuch will shine through in other very important areas in the future tho - but either way you will save at least 10x more on income taxes than you will spend on internet sales tax (especially since Amazon already charges it for non-third party sellers). So you voting for Trump ended up being a net positive. Good job.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Instead of hiring revenuers they just force businessmen to do it for them. Business people should sue for state pension and benefits.
    Business already has to for all employees. SSI, misc. payroll taxes. But at least it is all based upon a single state, if the business is in a single state.
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Why would I not just use brick & mortar stores then ? Pretty much what I do anyway and I can get tax exempt status from most those that I actually buy much from under my farm or the wife's business . Thankfully there is no tax on gold and silver coins in my state so if I wanted to buy that online I am tax exempt .
    More selection online.
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Business already has to for all employees. SSI, misc. payroll taxes. But at least it is all based upon a single state, if the business is in a single state.
    Oh, I'm well aware. Which is why I stopped that $#@! long ago.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Oh, I'm well aware. Which is why I stopped that $#@! long ago.
    Nothing better than doing payroll and writing big checks to the FTB.
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Gorsuch sold me out. Damn.
    :snort:

    You trust an attorney???

    Decision is just another side effect of global dollar standard dying and Uncle Sugar's magic printer drying up. States MUST find other avenues for revenue. Trump forgot to mention that MAGA means switching debt and tax burdens from the federal government over to state and local governments. Sales tax hikes and huge state and local bond referendums coming to a city near you soon.

    Crash course in reality:
    Lawyers/attorneys work for the bankers, take their oath to the BAR (administered by the sovereign City of London, nestled inside London proper) and their job is to push the economy via court rulings toward whatever the City wants. Watch some Jordan Maxwell videos on banking.

    Last edited by devil21; 06-21-2018 at 01:24 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    The entire internet is the domain of paid shills and bots. If you don't know this by now....

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  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Yeah, I don't know the details, but Gursuch seems a bit wrong on this. Seems like legislating from the bench, as Roberts says...
    The Supreme Court created the physical presence test to begin with, and today's opinion simply undoes what the Court did decades ago.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  22. #19
    I believe in fairness, so I'm fine with this ruling, states are going to get their revenue one way or another.

  23. #20
    Overall I would give everyone an F on this . It will be a large negative in total for economic growth . All of these purchases will not now be made , some will be skipped altogether . People underestimate the laziness of fellow man and just because a guy could use a jack and a lug wrench for his girlfriends trunk it does not mean he will go to the hardware and buy it , before he may have bought it online and it was delivered to his home , but if he lives in Washington , Calif, Tenn etc he may decide he does not want to buy it online and pay the extra 6 bucks in tax on top of the 10 bucks in shipping. No purchase . Our economy is fragile and growth dismal and has been for 11 years . So doing anything to discourage sales and purchases shows a lack of understanding .
    Last edited by oyarde; 06-21-2018 at 01:51 PM.
    Do something Danke

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Having dabbled in ebay retailing, it would be a royal PITA to make sellers taxmen. :P And taxation is theft.
    It will make it more costly for business- they will have to calculate, collect, and remit the various tax rates to all the different states. Lots more bookkeeping for them.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  25. #22
    Each year the physical presence rule becomes further removed from economic reality and results in significant revenue losses to the States.
    That's horrible. This is a grave injustice, that must be fixed.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  26. #23
    For online shopping, the obvious solution is a federal sales tax.

    We could even use it to fund UBI, so I don't have to work anymore. Just a thought.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Gorsuch sold me out. Damn.
    Quote Originally Posted by EBounding View Post
    "Justices Clarence Thomas, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Samuel A. Alito Jr. and Neil M. Gorsuch joined the majority opinion."

    We HAFTA vote Trump for JUDGES!
    I'll trade this decision for everything Garland would have done to us.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  29. #25
    Under the Supreme Court's decision Thursday, states can pass laws requiring sellers without a physical presence in the state to collect the state's sales tax from customers and send it to the state.
    I think I'm going to pass a local law that requires sellers without a physical presence near me to collect a sales tax and send it to me
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    The Supreme Court created the physical presence test to begin with, and today's opinion simply undoes what the Court did decades ago.
    Perhaps. But internet sales are nothing more than technology enabled catalog sales. Did Sears, Roebuck and Co. and Montgomery Ward charge and pay state/local sales taxes everywhere they shipped merchandise?
    Twitter: B4Liberty@USAB4L
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
    They are what they hate.” - B4L


    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by EBounding View Post
    "Justices Clarence Thomas, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Samuel A. Alito Jr. and Neil M. Gorsuch joined the majority opinion."

    We HAFTA vote Trump for JUDGES!
    Like Gorsuch?
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Like Gorsuch?
    Like Gorsuch.
    He may be wrong here but he is still possibly the best justice on the court and he is light-years better than Garland would have been.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Perhaps. But internet sales are nothing more than technology enabled catalog sales. Did Sears, Roebuck and Co. and Montgomery Ward charge and pay state/local sales taxes everywhere they shipped merchandise?
    Sears and Wards had stores in most if not all of the States they shipped to, unlike Amazon, L.L. Bean, and many online sellers. Under the Quill case (which today's decision overturned) that was enough to require them to collect sales taxes on catalog sales.
    We have long had death and taxes as the two standards of inevitability. But there are those who believe that death is the preferable of the two. "At least," as one man said, "there's one advantage about death; it doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
    Erwin N. Griswold

    Taxes: Of life's two certainties, the only one for which you can get an automatic extension.
    Anonymous

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Instead of hiring revenuers they just force businessmen to do it for them. Business people should sue for state pension and benefits.
    +megarep
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

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