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Thread: It's Time For America To Cut Loose Our Useless So-Called "Allies"

  1. #1

    It's Time For America To Cut Loose Our Useless So-Called "Allies"

    Let’s get one thing straight: the United States has no real allies. There are countries we dominate and control, more properly termed client states or even satellites. (True, given Israel’s and Saudi Arabia’s lock-stock-and-barrel ownership of the American political class, it seems rather that we are their clients, not the other way around...) Conversely, on an almost one-to-one correspondence, countries that are not satellites are our enemies, either currently (Russia, North Korea, Iran, Syria) or prospectively (China).
    But do we have any actual allies – that is, countries that provide mutual security for the United States, and whose contributions actually make us Americans safer and more secure in our own country?
    Try to name one.
    Let’s start with the granddaddy of our alliances, NATO. How does having a mutual defense pact with, say, virulently anti-Russian Poland and the Baltic States make America more secure? How does, say, tiny corrupt Montenegro, contribute to US security? Are these countries going to defend America in any conceivable way? Even if they wanted to, how could they possibly?
    For that matter, against what ‘threat’ would they defend us? Is Latvia going to help build Trump’s Wall on the Mexican border?
    ‘Our NATO allies help out in Afghanistan,’ we are told. NATO-Schmato – it’s Americans who do almost all the fighting and dying. It’s our treasure being wasted there. Maybe without the fig leaf of an alliance mission, we might long since have reevaluated what we still are doing there after 17 years.
    But comes the answer, ‘Russia!’ Except that Russia isn’t a threat to the United States. Despite their hype even the most antagonistic Russophobic countries in NATO themselves don’t really believe they’re about to be invaded. And even if they were, that still doesn’t make Russia a threat to us – or wouldn’t except for the very existence of NATO and a forward American presence on Russia’s borders and in the Black and Baltic seas littorals. How does gratuitously risking conflict with the one country on the planet whose strategic arsenal can annihilate us make Americans safer?
    As Professor Richard Sakwa has observed, ‘NATO exists to manage the risks created by its existence.’
    Let’s look at other supposedly valuable alliances.
    Why do we need South Korea and Japan? ‘China!’ But except for a nuclear stockpile much smaller than our intercontinental deterrent China doesn’t present a military threat to us. ‘Yes, but Beijing poses a danger to South Korea and Japan.’ Maybe, maybe not. But even if that is so why is it our problem?
    Why do we need Israel, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and bunch of other Middle Eastern countries? We aren’t dependent on energy from the region as we arguably were when Jimmy Carter proclaimed a vital national interest there four decades ago. ‘Well then, Iran!’ But the Iranians can’t do anything to us. ‘Yes, but they hate Israel, Saudi Arabia, etc., etc.’ Again, what’s that got to do with us?
    In each case the argument of a US interest is a tautology.
    The US ‘needs’ allies for the sole purpose of defense against purported threats not to us but to those very same allies. It’s a self-licking ice cream cone.
    It would be bad enough if these faux alliance relationships were only detrimental in terms of getting embroiled in quarrels in which we have no interest, wasting money and manpower in areas of the world where our security is not at stake. But there’s also a direct economic cost right here at home.
    Based on the claimed need for “allies” US trade policy since World War II could almost have been designed to undermine the economic interests of American workers and American producers. Starting with Germany and Japan, our defeated enemies, we offered them virtually tariff-free, nonreciprocal access to our huge domestic market to assist with their economies’ recovery from wartime destruction; in return, we would take their sovereignty: control of their foreign and security policies, as well as their military and intelligence establishments, plus permanent bases on their territory.
    This arrangement became the standard with other countries in non-communist Europe, as well as some in the Far East, notably South Korea. As much or more than puffed-up claims of military threats (and companies that benefit from inflated military spending) lopsided trade is the glue that keeps the satellites in place. In effect, our “allies” cede geostrategic control of their own countries and are rewarded at the expense of domestic American economic interests. Already of questionable value in its heyday, this pattern not only survived the end of Cold War 1 but continued to grow, contributing to the rise of Cold War 2.
    Put into that context, this is where Trump’s tariffs dovetail with his other blasphemies, like expecting the deadbeats to pony up for their own defense. He challenges them to reduce tariffs and barriers to zero on a reciprocal bilateral basis – knowing full well they won’t do so because it would spoil their cozy arrangement at the expense of American workers. He threatens the sanctity of the North Atlantic Treaty’s vaunted Article 5 obligation of mutual defense on whether countries meet a two percent of GDP level of military spending – knowing that few of them will since they don’t in fact face any external military threat and would rather keep the money.
    In his own unvarnished, zigzaggy way, Trump is doing what he said he would: putting America and Americans first. As he has said, that does not mean hostility towards other countries, whose leaders have aduty to put their countries and peoples first as well. It means both stopping our allies’ sandbagging us, while restoring to them their unsought-for – and for many of them, undesirable – sovereignty and independence.

    More at: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...-called-allies
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #2
    Japan is an ally.

    Beyond that I am sure of none.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Japan is an ally.

    Beyond that I am sure of none.
    What do they do for us?
    What do we need them for?

    Make sure your answer doesn't end up being that we need their help to protect them.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    What do they do for us?
    Make sure your answer doesn't end up being that we need their help to protect them.


    A picture is worth a thousand words here.



    Japan has our back when we need it in our foreign affairs, political and economic. That's what an ally does.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    A picture is worth a thousand words here.



    Japan has our back when we need it in our foreign affairs, political and economic. That's what an ally does.
    It is possible, if they agree to a fair trade relationship and to fund their own defense.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    What do they do for us?
    What do we need them for?

    Make sure your answer doesn't end up being that we need their help to protect them.
    I'm sure the terms of surrender after WW2 has an enormous impact on that. I think there's a clause that prevents Japan from militarizing.

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    I'm sure the terms of surrender after WW2 has an enormous impact on that. I think there's a clause that prevents Japan from militarizing.
    That was a horrible mistake and we need to work with them to rectify it, defending Japan may actually be our responsibility until we do.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    I'm sure the terms of surrender after WW2 has an enormous impact on that. I think there's a clause that prevents Japan from militarizing.
    Not really - Japan Moves to Allow Military Combat for First Time in 70 Years - https://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...me-in-70-Years



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That was a horrible mistake and we need to work with them to rectify it, defending Japan may actually be our responsibility until we do.
    Good luck, no way in hell North Korea denuclearizes if Japan is allowed to build a militarize.

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    Good luck, no way in hell North Korea denuclearizes if Japan is allowed to build a militarize.
    I'm pretty sure our forces in Japan are a bigger threat than anything the Japs would keep on their own if we left.
    Plus we can remove our forces in S. Korea and other bases in the region as well.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Not really - Japan Moves to Allow Military Combat for First Time in 70 Years - https://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...me-in-70-Years
    Baby steps, they won't pay for a real military until we negotiate our withdrawal.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Not really - Japan Moves to Allow Military Combat for First Time in 70 Years - https://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...me-in-70-Years
    Yeah, but those are "limited" what that means who knows. Japan still largely uses its military for defensive purposes. But, that could change.

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I'm pretty sure our forces in Japan are a bigger threat than anything the Japs would keep on their own if we left.
    Plus we can remove our forces in S. Korea and other bases in the region as well.
    Agreed, however, the history between Japan and Korea is different than American forces. Japan enslaved Koreans prior to and during WW2.

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    Agreed, however, the history between Japan and Korea is different than American forces. Japan enslaved Koreans prior to and during WW2.
    We killed untold numbers of Koreans and bombed them into the stone age, I don't think they see much difference between our forces and the Japanese.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We killed untold numbers of Koreans and bombed them into the stone age, I don't think they see much difference between our forces and the Japanese.
    The killing went both ways. The Japanese humiliated Koreans.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...s-8923279.html

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    The killing went both ways. The Japanese humiliated Koreans.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...s-8923279.html
    With Japan's aging and shrinking population and lack of nukes I don't think they can be seen as much of a threat on their own and the US has been the primary enemy for 60 years, I don't think that Japan would be too much of a problem in our deal with the Norks as long as we pulled out of the region.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    With Japan's aging and shrinking population and lack of nukes I don't think they can be seen as much of a threat on their own and the US has been the primary enemy for 60 years, I don't think that Japan would be too much of a problem in our deal with the Norks as long as we pulled out of the region.
    Trump took the first step by standing down joint exercises. A step in the right direction, baby steps in the right direction. The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    With Japan's aging and shrinking population and lack of nukes I don't think they can be seen as much of a threat on their own and the US has been the primary enemy for 60 years, I don't think that Japan would be too much of a problem in our deal with the Norks as long as we pulled out of the region.
    Trump took the first step by standing down joint exercises. A step in the right direction, baby steps in the right direction. The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.

    We're being governed ruled by a geriatric Alzheimer patient/puppet whose strings are being pulled by an elitist oligarchy who believe they can manage the world... imagine the utter maniacal, sociopathic hubris!

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Pauls' Revere View Post
    Japan still largely uses its military for defensive purposes.
    If only we could follow their example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  23. #20
    my feelings are that there is only 3 countries that america can depend on in a real emergency - canada - australia - britain .

    none in the middle east including israel , they all hate us and just use us .

  24. #21
    I trust none of them but would trade with them . Certainly no need to fund anything for any of them .
    Do something Danke

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by ILUVRP View Post
    my feelings are that there is only 3 countries that america can depend on in a real emergency - canada - australia - britain .
    LOL
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It's Time For America To Cut Loose Our Useless So-Called "Allies"
    Let’s get one thing straight: the United States has no real allies. There are countries we dominate and control, more properly termed client states or even satellites. (True, given Israel’s and Saudi Arabia’s lock-stock-and-barrel ownership of the American political class, it seems rather that we are their clients, not the other way around...)

    ..
    Why do we need Israel, Saudi Arabia, UAE, and bunch of other Middle Eastern countries? We aren’t dependent on energy from the region as we arguably were when Jimmy Carter proclaimed a vital national interest there four decades ago. ‘Well then, Iran!’ But the Iranians can’t do anything to us. ‘Yes, but they hate Israel, Saudi Arabia, etc., etc.’ Again, what’s that got to do with us?

    ...
    Relations with ultra conservatives in Saudi Arabia (who also oppose gay weddings, abortion, pre-marital romances etc) could be energy interests based but is this writer implying that our ties to Israel (though mostly liberal/commie culture based) are also based on oil interests and US won't have been a staunch supporter of Israel's birth and maintenance had massive oil reserves not been discovered in that region?

    That frankly would be insult to a large part of GOP base/Evangelical Christians. Many Biblical leaders like CUFI's John Hagee and millions of GOP basers deserve an apology if it is being implied that such Christian-Zionists channel their material interests & wordly greed through biblical messaging when it comes to shaping US foreign policy regarding chosen vs non-chosen races.



    Christians' Israel Support Is Biblically Based

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/...upport-israel/
    Mar 6, 2018




    Israel is not only our closest taxpayers funded ally but also the only non-racist democracy in mideast that did not cause blowbacks like 9/11 and resulting Iraq war at the cost of millions of American Lives/Limbs and Trillions in debt for future grandchildren.

    It is no wonder that current historic leader is putting Israel First on foreign policy fronts at the cost of alienating other non-chosen allies.


    US blocks UN call for independent probe of Gaza protests
    16h ago





    Trump is a Friend of Zion




    Trump's Biggest Donor Pushed for Jerusalem Embassy Move
    https://lobelog.com/trumps-biggest-d...-embassy-move/
    Dec 4, 2017 - His biggest campaign contributor, billionaire casino magnate Sheldon Adelson, is showing growing impatience with Trump's slowness in ...

  27. #24
    Calling a country an ally of US is just for their benefit so they can save face about being subjugated to our will
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
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    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    Israel is not only our closest taxpayers funded ally but also the only non-racist democracy in mideast that did not cause blowbacks like 9/11 and resulting Iraq war at the cost of millions of American Lives/Limbs and Trillions in debt for future grandchildren.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Calling a country an ally of US is just for their benefit so they can save face about being subjugated to our will
    Sure, but how do you extract money from the system? You give it to your friends who give kickbacks to you.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This data is 5 years old, later data had war injured/disabled count over a million.

    Iraq/Afghanistan wars disabled 624,000 US troops , Divorces up 42%, Foreclosures up 217%

    Military divorce rate increased as families struggle to heal - Kerr ...
    Jul 9, 2013 -Approximately 38 percent of military marriages fail within six months of a veteran returning from a deployment.

    Foreclosures in Military Towns Surge at Four Times U.S. Rate ...
    Foreclosure filings in 10 towns and cities within 10 miles of military facilities, including Norfolk, Virginia, home of the Navy's largest base, rose ...

    Suicide Rate Among Vets and Active Duty Military Jumps - Now 22 A Day
    forbes
    Feb 5, 2013 - Veterans now commit suicide at the rate of 22 a day, or almost one an hour. Almost once an hour – every 65 minutes to be precise – a military veteran commits suicide, says a new investigation by the Department of Veterans Affairs.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced_deficit View Post
    This data is 5 years old, later data had war injured/disabled count over a million.

    Iraq/Afghanistan wars disabled 624,000 US troops , Divorces up 42%, Foreclosures up 217%

    Military divorce rate increased as families struggle to heal - Kerr ...
    Jul 9, 2013 -Approximately 38 percent of military marriages fail within six months of a veteran returning from a deployment.

    Foreclosures in Military Towns Surge at Four Times U.S. Rate ...
    Foreclosure filings in 10 towns and cities within 10 miles of military facilities, including Norfolk, Virginia, home of the Navy's largest base, rose ...

    Suicide Rate Among Vets and Active Duty Military Jumps - Now 22 A Day
    forbes
    Feb 5, 2013 - Veterans now commit suicide at the rate of 22 a day, or almost one an hour. Almost once an hour – every 65 minutes to be precise – a military veteran commits suicide, says a new investigation by the Department of Veterans Affairs.
    My point was Israel had nothing to do with it.

  33. #29

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Japan is an ally.

    Beyond that I am sure of none.
    Did Japan send troops and stood with us in our hour of need during Iraqi Freedom invasion?

    UK/Australia were the only allies who sent troops to stand with America on frontlines during very costly Iraqi freedom war. That may be why many see them as our closest allies.

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