Our Economy Is Failing Our Society

[Swordsmyth]

Not true. That's why metallic standard-based bills came about. People *tend* strongly to prefer carrying paper in their wallets over coins. FRNs have value to the extent that other people want them. (Even your gold can be said to have no value if nobody but you wants to accept your gold as payment, barter, etc)

The only value early bills had was the gold and silver they could be converted for and the only value unbacked bills have is their fiat currency status, gold and silver still have value even after they are no longer legal tender because people assign them value for other purposes.

[heavenlyboy34]

The only value early bills had was the gold and silver they could be converted for and the only value unbacked bills have is their fiat currency status, gold and silver still have value even after they are no longer legal tender because people assign them value for other purposes.

Not quite. They also had the value of greater portability and lighter weight, which is why people gravitate to them. #subjectivevalue You're right that gold and silver have utility for other things, but that doesn't help your argument any. It's a utilitarian point, not Austrian.

[kfarnan]

You are arguing about what is money v. currency. Fiat status could be money or currency.

[Swordsmyth]

Not quite. They also had the value of greater portability and lighter weight, which is why people gravitate to them. #subjectivevalue You're right that gold and silver have utility for other things, but that doesn't help your argument any. It's a utilitarian point, not Austrian.

Portability would have no value without either gold backing or legal tender laws, without those they are just paper and not in any demand, gold and silver are still quite valuable after being deprived of currency status.

Value may be subjective but not all value is created equal, fiat has value ONLY because it is fiat, an intrinsic value currency had value before it was used for money and retains it after it is no longer money.

[Swordsmyth]

You are arguing about what is money v. currency. Fiat status could be money or currency.

We are arguing about whether an item used as a universal trade good is fiat when it had value before it was used as a universal trade good and retains it when it is no longer used as a universal trade good.

[heavenlyboy34]

Portability would have no value without either gold backing or legal tender laws, without those they are just paper and not in any demand, gold and silver are still quite valuable after being deprived of currency status.

Value may be subjective but not all value is created equal, fiat has value ONLY because it is fiat, an intrinsic value currency had value before it was used for money and retains it after it is no longer money.

Except gold doesn't have "intrinsic value". The concept implies objective value, which Menger and the Austrians disproved. Remember also that metallic and metal-backed currency can also be fiat if government issued.

[Swordsmyth]

Except gold doesn't have "intrinsic value". The concept implies objective value, which Menger and the Austrians disproved. Remember also that metallic and metal-backed currency can also be fiat if government issued.

Some things do have intrinsic value, air, food and water for example, in any case gold and silver have "intrinsic" value because people wanted them before they were money and continue to want them afterwards, paper money has no "intrinsic" value because nobody wants it when it isn't money.

Gold and silver coins can only be fiat money if government is altering their composition while enforcing their face value or monopolizing the coining of money and giving it a face value in excess of the value of the metal.

[Swordsmyth]

Except gold doesn't have "intrinsic value". The concept implies objective value, which Menger and the Austrians disproved. Remember also that metallic and metal-backed currency can also be fiat if government issued.

From your link:

Fiat money is a currency without intrinsic value that has been established as money, often by government regulation. Fiat money does not have use value,

[VIDEODROME]

Does it seem peculiar to take something with a utility use like Gold or Silver and apply it in a role where that utility will never be used? Or it sits in brick form in storage instead of being put to use such as in electronics?

It seems like that would remove its perceived utility value.