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Thread: Unemployment and Welfare

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    What is "below cost"? A negative interest rate (ie if I pay you to borrow money from me?)

    Is a loan "below cost" if both parties agree that the interest rate is acceptable to both parties- the borrower and the lender?

    Wouldn't any restrictions against lending be against free markets?
    Below free market rate. No more QE.



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Below free market rate. No more QE.
    If the lender and the borrower agree that a rate is fair isn't that a market rate? (if they don't both like the terms, the loan would not take place).

    QE ended in 2014.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Nobody should be allowed to borrow money?
    Why do you advocate FOR people borrowing money from other groups of people under specific titles who are loaning what they do NOT have to begin with? Then to add insult to injury, claim there is Risk in loaning what they did not have to begin with as an excuse to charge interest on top of what they created out of thin air? Who is the real Counterfeiter here?
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Why do you advocate FOR people borrowing money from other groups of people under specific titles who are loaning what they do NOT have to begin with? Then to add insult to injury, claim there is Risk in loaning what they did not have to begin with as an excuse to charge interest on top of what they created out of thin air? Who is the real Counterfeiter here?
    Just to be sure what you are talking about- who is loaning money to who in your case? Should all loans be interest free (would you be willing to loan money out at zero interest- besides to a well known friend?)

    If I want to borrow money to buy a house or a car from a lender, should the government prevent that? If he wants to charge me for borrowing that money (interest) and I agree, should the government say we can't do that? Or should the market determine borrowing and interest rates?
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-20-2018 at 02:57 PM.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Just to be sure what you are talking about- who is loaning money to who in your case? Should all loans be interest free (would you be willing to loan money out at zero interest- besides to a well known friend?)

    If I want to borrow money to buy a house or a car from a lender, should the government prevent that? If he wants to charge me for borrowing that money (interest) and I agree, should the government say we can't do that? Or should the market determine borrowing and interest rates?
    What you are saying is that Lending is impossible without either the Federal Reserve or Fractional Reserve Lending. People can borrow just fine from other people, loaning what they have, not what they create out of thin air and backed by nothing but the borrowers promise to pay.

    Your response, as usual, is what Hitler would have called a Loaded Question, and very -REP worthy.

    ---

    Seriously, why are you still here? A normal human being would have left a very long time ago, or at least stopped trying to post anything related to Economics, which is exactly where most of the -REPs I have given you come from, as well as MANY others.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    What you are saying is that Lending is impossible without either the Federal Reserve or Fractional Reserve Lending. People can borrow just fine from other people, loaning what they have, not what they create out of thin air and backed by nothing but the borrowers promise to pay.

    Your response, as usual, is what Hitler would have called a Loaded Question, and very -REP worthy.

    ---

    Seriously, why are you still here? A normal human being would have left a very long time ago, or at least stopped trying to post anything related to Economics, which is exactly where most of the -REPs I have given you come from, as well as MANY others.
    What is "fractional reserve lending" and how does it differ from other forms of lending? Are you talking about banks borrowing from the Central Bank (Federal Reserve in the US) or anybody borrowing from any bank? Are you saying banks should not make any loans? Can people loan money to banks (make deposits)? Should all deposits be kept in cash and under lock and key and not one penny let out (a 100% reserve banking system)? Trying to clarify what we are discussing.

    Fractional Reserve Banking is a system where a bank must keep at least some fraction of deposits in reserve and not loan out that money. Alternative systems would be zero reserve banking (where they can loan out 100%) or Full Reserve banking where banks are not allowed to loan out any deposits. Zero reserve would be the freest form and 100% the most interference in a free market. You can have fractional reserve banking with a gold standard if you want and with or without a Central Bank.

    Not being able to borrow money will considerably slow your economic growth. Companies will have a hard time expanding without access to credit.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-20-2018 at 03:25 PM.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  9. #37
    Way to derail the thread.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Not being able to borrow money will considerably slow your economic growth.
    As measured in the ever faster inflating currency?

    Companies will have a hard time expanding without access to credit.
    Not if they plan to turn a profit on the money in less than 10 years.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Way to derail the thread.
    What is "fractional reserve lending" and how is it different from other forms of lending? What is it about lending or what particular forms of it
    are you against?
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    What is "fractional reserve lending" and how does it differ from other forms of lending? Are you talking about banks borrowing from the Central Bank (Federal Reserve in the US) or anybody borrowing from any bank? Are you saying banks should not make any loans? Can people loan money to banks (make deposits)? Should all deposits be kept in cash and under lock and key and not one penny let out (a 100% reserve banking system)? Trying to clarify what we are discussing.

    Fractional Reserve Banking is a system where a bank must keep at least some fraction of deposits in reserve and not loan out that money. Alternative systems would be zero reserve banking (where they can loan out 100%) or Full Reserve banking where banks are not allowed to loan out any deposits. Zero reserve would be the freest form and 100% the most interference in a free market. You can have fractional reserve banking with a gold standard if you want and with or without a Central Bank.

    Not being able to borrow money will considerably slow your economic growth. Companies will have a hard time expanding without access to credit.
    Not necessarily. It likely wouldn't happen, but it's possible for someone in a free market to start a full reserve bank. The terms would be spelled out in the contract you sign when you open an account. Like I was telling Damian, et al in another thread long ago, such a thing is more akin to a safe deposit box than a "bank", and would probably be more of a niche specialty in a free market.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    What is "fractional reserve lending" and how is it different from other forms of lending? What is it about lending or what particular forms of it
    are you against?
    Since you insist on keeping the topic derailed, how about you answer how Govt continues to print money, Banks print money, and how that all relates to Welfare? Does not printing money steal value from the existing money supply which causes the people to become more poor and thus dependent and controllable on those who print the money? Is that not a form of Enslavement? Work for nothing to pay your debts to lenders who have taken no actual risk, and put the consequences of money printing and fractional reserve lending on those who are not afforded the same ability?
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  15. #42
    Lots of questions without answering mine. I was trying to stick with the points you raised. Now you are changing them again.

    how that all relates to Welfare?
    The Congress determines welfare (assuming you mean things like food stamps types of welfare and not just general well- being of people). They write the spending and tax laws. That happens no matter what you have for money or banking.

    Work for nothing to pay your debts to lenders who have taken no actual risk,
    Same as above. You can have debt under any money or banking system. But lenders do take on risk. The risk you don't pay them back. That is why they ask for interest. Both for a profit for the service they provide as well as to pay for those who do not pay off their loans. Riskier borrowers are charged higher interest due to their higher risks of not paying the money back.

    Banks print money
    Banks don't print money. They can loan out money depositors have loaned to them though (subject to reserve limits).

    Technically, the Treasury prints physical money. The Central Bank can create money, true. And too much money creation can be a bad thing. But so can too little- it is a difficult balance. They try to judge how they are doing based on price inflation and unemployment.

    What about a fixed money supply? Suppose we allowed one gold coin for money in our economy and no more money than that. How could the economy function? I give you the coin for some food. Now I have no more money and you have it all. I can't buy anything from you anymore so you have no more income. The economy is frozen. No inflation but no transactions either. Unless we find a way to conduct more transactions. Maybe more money?
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-20-2018 at 06:09 PM.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post



    Banks don't print money. They can loan out money depositors have loaned to them though (subject to reserve limits).


    So the banks are like middlemen loaners. When they hand over that money, there is an account for that loan In The Red and they want to see it move to being In The Black in the ledger.

    I think there is a perception that Banks regularly over extend them loaning out more than what they really have on deposit and people find this frustrating or see lots of potential danger in doing this.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post

    What about a fixed money supply? Suppose we allowed one gold coin for money in our economy and no more money than that. How could the economy function? I give you the coin for some food. Now I have no more money and you have it all. I can't buy anything from you anymore so you have no more income. The economy is frozen. No inflation but no transactions either. Unless we find a way to conduct more transactions. Maybe more money?

    Or how would America conduct international trade? Would Gold gradually leak out of the country as we buy foreign products?

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by VIDEODROME View Post
    So the banks are like middlemen loaners. When they hand over that money, there is an account for that loan In The Red and they want to see it move to being In The Black in the ledger.

    I think there is a perception that Banks regularly over extend them loaning out more than what they really have on deposit and people find this frustrating or see lots of potential danger in doing this.
    They are not allowed to do that. They must retain a fraction of deposits in reserve- hence the term "fractional reserve banking". Note in this chart that loans (red) only rarely are greater than deposits (blue).

    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-20-2018 at 06:49 PM.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Link? Healthcare costs account for ten percent of the core CPI. That fits with your numbers (well, not the one percent figure)



    https://www.clevelandfed.org/newsroo...ation-gap.aspx
    Insurance. Not total spent on healthcare.

    https://www.bls.gov/opub/hom/pdf/homch17.pdf 107 pages. Go to page 106 Under the heading Medical Care. Health insurance = .7

    Look at your pie chart. Who in the world spends 1% on Food and Beverage. The link I listed says 15 percent.
    Last edited by loveshiscountry; 05-20-2018 at 09:31 PM.
    go small or go home
    Taxation is Theft

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by loveshiscountry View Post
    Insurance. Not total spent on healthcare.

    https://www.bls.gov/opub/hom/pdf/homch17.pdf 107 pages. Go to page 106 Under the heading Medical Care. Health insurance = .7

    Look at your pie chart. Who in the world spends 1% on Food and Beverage. The link I listed says 15 percent.
    Thank you for the link. That is what they say. Also keep in mind that this is the average person direct costs. If your insurance is from your employer, only your out of pocket counts towards the CPI insurance costs. If you are covered by the VA or Medicare, again, only the portion of that insurance you are paying is counted. Not everybody is paying $5000 a year themselves for their insurance.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health..._United_States

    During 2016, the U.S. population overall was approximately 325 million, with 53 million persons 65 years of age and over covered by the federal Medicare program.

    For the remaining 272 million non-institutional persons under age 65:

    There were 155 million with employer-based coverage, 90 million with other coverage, and 27 million uninsured.

    Of the 90 million with other coverage, 57 million were covered by Medicaid and Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP), 12 million were covered by the ACA/Obamacare exchanges, 11 million were covered by the ACA Medicaid expansion, and 10 million had other coverage, such as private insurance purchased outside the ACA exchanges.

    Of the 12 million on the ACA exchanges, 10 million received subsidies and 2 million did not.[1]
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-20-2018 at 09:48 PM.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Thank you for the link. That is what they say. Also keep in mind that this is the average person direct costs. If your insurance is from your employer, only your out of pocket counts towards the CPI insurance costs. If you are covered by the VA or Medicare, again, only the portion of that insurance you are paying is counted. Not everybody is paying $5000 a year themselves for their insurance.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health..._United_States
    I am only counting the Insurance cost that comes directly out of pocket. If the percerntage was figured correctly one would add the employer contribution to income then divide that amount by the total cost and we'd be over 20 percent 15k/70k vs 5k/55k.

    This isn't about one person who happens to be covered by the VA or Medicare. It's about the median family and the costs associated with that median family. The median family is not paying $550 a year for Healthcare insurance. CPI is a scam
    go small or go home
    Taxation is Theft



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by loveshiscountry View Post
    I am only counting the Insurance cost that comes directly out of pocket. If the percerntage was figured correctly one would add the employer contribution to income then divide that amount by the total cost and we'd be over 20 percent 15k/70k vs 5k/55k.

    This isn't about one person who happens to be covered by the VA or Medicare. It's about the median family and the costs associated with that median family. The median family is not paying $550 a year for Healthcare insurance. CPI is a scam
    If your employer is covering 100% of your health insurance premiums, your costs are zero. If you are under Medicaid and don't pay any insurance premiums, your out of pocket insurance costs are zero. If one family is paying for example $5000 a year and the other two are paying zero, then the average person is paying $1600- not $5000. The portion of your insurance costs paid by somebody else are not counted as part of your (the average person's) expenses. CPI attempts to calculate what the average person actually pays out of their own pockets. Most people have somebody else paying most if not all of their insurance costs (actually they are paying too- it is in the form of lower wages in the case of employer paid insurance or higher taxes in the case of government funded/ subsidized insurance premiums). The figure is not based on what average premiums are since it has to account for people who have no premiums as well.

    Out of 325 million in the US, 53 million have Medicare. 155 million get insurance through their employer. 27 million have no insurance. 57 million get theirs through Medicaid or CHIP. Ten million were on Obamacare but got subsidies. All those people were paying little to no money out of their own pockets or at least below average for their medical insurance. Those add up to 300 million people or 90% of the population.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-20-2018 at 11:14 PM.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If your employer is covering 100% of your health insurance premiums, your costs are zero. If you are under Medicaid and don't pay any insurance premiums, your out of pocket insurance costs are zero. If one family is paying for example $5000 a year and the other two are paying zero, then the average person is paying $1600- not $5000. The portion of your insurance costs paid by somebody else are not counted as part of your (the average person's) expenses. CPI attempts to calculate what the average person actually pays out of their own pockets. Most people have somebody else paying most if not all of their insurance costs (actually they are paying too- it is in the form of lower wages in the case of employer paid insurance or higher taxes in the case of government funded/ subsidized insurance premiums). The figure is not based on what average premiums are since it has to account for people who have no premiums as well.

    Out of 325 million in the US, 53 million have Medicare. 155 million get insurance through their employer. 27 million have no insurance. 57 million get theirs through Medicaid or CHIP. Ten million were on Obamacare but got subsidies. All those people were paying little to no money or at least below average for their medical insurance. Those add up to 300 million people or 90% of the population.
    The 155 million who get their insurance through their employer are paying a much higher percentage than 1%. Why in the world are grouping them and saying they pay little money? They're paying ~5k a year out of pocket. Quit saying that's a small number when it's not. It's no where near .7% of what the median family makes.
    Median family. CPI is fraud.

    "If your employer is covering 100% of your health insurance premiums, your costs are zero. "
    Tell me the percentage of people who receive that? If the employer is paying it the costs are the value of the coverage. That's a form of income.

    "Since 2001, the number of employers on Fortune's "100 Best Companies to Work For" list who provide full health coverage to employees has dropped from 34 percent to just 9 percent in 2016."
    Employees not family members.
    Last edited by loveshiscountry; 05-20-2018 at 11:27 PM.
    go small or go home
    Taxation is Theft

  25. #51
    Employees not family members.
    If a family of four has one wage earner and they have say employer covered insurance, then that is four people (not just one) not paying health insurance premiums. Employer coverage may not necessarily be 100% of premiums- that was an example- but the employer is still picking up a considerable portion of that amount. I have employer coverage and only pay $20 a month towards my premiums. So as far as the CPI is concerned, my health insurance costs are $120 a year. All those government programs and employer plans greatly lower the costs for the average person's insurance costs.

    If one pays $100, one pays zero, one pays $200 and one pays $5000, the average expense is $1325. The more people you have paying little to no insurance premium costs, the lower the average expenses for insurance premiums are for the entire population. Employer plans, CHIP, Medicare, Medicaid, uninsured.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Nobody should be allowed to borrow money?
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    What is "fractional reserve lending" and how is it different from other forms of lending? What is it about lending or what particular forms of it
    are you against?
    Let's say I have $10. I will loan you $100, and you will pay me $110 for it. Make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If your employer is covering 100% of your health insurance premiums, your costs are zero.
    If your employer is covering 100% of your health insurance premiums, your costs are 100%, because that is part of your wages.
    Stay home from work and see if they still pay...
    Last edited by fedupinmo; 05-21-2018 at 07:02 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Ryan
    In Washington you can see them everywhere: the Parasites and baby Stalins sucking the life out of a once-great nation.

  27. #53
    Zippy is the reason valuable posters leave. This thread was derailed and ruined long before I even saw it.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by fedupinmo View Post
    Let's say I have $10. I will loan you $100, and you will pay me $110 for it. Make sense?


    If your employer is covering 100% of your health insurance premiums, your costs are 100%, because that is part of your wages.
    Stay home from work and see if they still pay...
    I'm not sure that's how it works.

    Would it really be more like a Bank receives a Deposit of $100 and must keep some of that in reserve as say $10, so they're allowed to loan out $90?

    Beyond this I'm sure it gets more complicated as we're not really accounting for the incoming loan payments including interest. I'm not sure if interest received is another asset that is applied to allowing Banks to issue bigger loans or if that is taken as profit or spend on misc. business expenses.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Zippy is the reason valuable posters leave. This thread was derailed and ruined long before I even saw it.
    He doesn't really bother me, but maybe if to many tangents come from his responses they could be split off into separate threads.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by fedupinmo View Post

    If your employer is covering 100% of your health insurance premiums, your costs are 100%, because that is part of your wages.
    Stay home from work and see if they still pay...
    If your employer is paying 100% you are paying zero. CPI measures your out of pocket costs for things. You didn't pay the premium- your employer did. The money did not come out of your take home wages. Yes, your wages may be lower because your employer is covering your insurance but that does not count in the CPI. It looks at what you are actually paid and what you actually spend.

    Let's say I have $10. I will loan you $100, and you will pay me $110 for it. Make sense?
    If you are a person and have $10, you can loan me $10. If you are a bank and you have $10 in deposits, you are allowed to loan out $9 if there is a ten percent reserve requirement.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-21-2018 at 11:17 AM.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If a family of four has one wage earner and they have say employer covered insurance, then that is four people (not just one) not paying health insurance premiums.
    The verbage isn't "not paying". It's value received.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Employer coverage may not necessarily be 100% of premiums- that was an example- but the employer is still picking up a considerable portion of that amount. I have employer coverage and only pay $20 a month towards my premiums. So as far as the CPI is concerned, my health insurance costs are $120 a year. All those government programs and employer plans greatly lower the costs for the average person's insurance costs.
    A very small amount of people don't directly pay. You're deflecting from the amount of money your employer pays for you which is income. The main reason you get it in the form of health care insurance is taxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If one pays $100, one pays zero, one pays $200 and one pays $5000, the average expense is $1325. The more people you have paying little to no insurance premium costs, the lower the average expenses for insurance premiums are for the entire population. Employer plans, CHIP, Medicare, Medicaid, uninsured.
    One isn't paying zero, one isn't paying $100, one isn't paying $200. It's about the median family.

    You explained the methodology. Which helps show why CPI is worthless.
    Last edited by loveshiscountry; 05-21-2018 at 09:47 PM.
    go small or go home
    Taxation is Theft

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Zippy is the reason valuable posters leave. This thread was derailed and ruined long before I even saw it.
    You don't like coming to RPF and arguing with a 5 year old?

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If your employer is paying 100% you are paying zero. CPI measures your out of pocket costs for things. You didn't pay the premium- your employer did. The money did not come out of your take home wages. Yes, your wages may be lower because your employer is covering your insurance but that does not count in the CPI. It looks at what you are actually paid and what you actually spend.
    Agreed. Which is why it is worthless.
    go small or go home
    Taxation is Theft

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    You don't like coming to RPF and arguing with a perinnial 5 year old?
    The same arguments for 10 freaking years now. Nobody here has read any economic opinion he's posted and thought, "Hey, he has a point!" On the other side of that, he isn't here to even debate. He's only here to educate us, because God knows he's the smartest person on the forums.
    * Enforce Border Security – America should be guarding her own borders and enforcing her own laws instead of policing the world and implementing UN mandates.

    * No Amnesty - The Obama Administration’s endorsement of so-called “Comprehensive Immigration Reform,” granting amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, will only encourage more law-breaking.

    * Abolish the Welfare State – Taxpayers cannot continue to pay the high costs to sustain this powerful incentive for illegal immigration. As Milton Friedman famously said, you can’t have open borders and a welfare state.

    * End Birthright Citizenship – As long as illegal immigrants know their children born here will be granted U.S. citizenship, we’ll never be able to control our immigration problem.




    Reprinted from http://www.ronpaul2012.com/the-issues/immigration/ [Nov. 29, 2011]

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