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Thread: The Price of This Drug Went Up 100,000 Percent Since 2001 for No Good Reason

  1. #1

    The Price of This Drug Went Up 100,000 Percent Since 2001 for No Good Reason

    https://gizmodo.com/the-price-of-thi...-20-1825819643

    Did you catch 60 Minutes last night? If you did, you may have learned about a drug called Acthar that went from $40 in 2001 to over $40,000 today. It’s a perfect illustration of just how poorly regulated the US pharmaceutical industry continues to be and how there’s absolutely no good reason for the extreme prices Americans pay for medicine.

    Acthar has been on the market since 1952 and is primarily used to treat infantile spasms, a rare condition. Why does Acthar cost $40,000 today, an increase of 100,000 percent from the cost in 2001? Pure greed.

    You can buy an identical drug to Acthar called Synacthen for just $33 in Canada. Synacthen is also available in Europe, where the drug is also reasonably priced. But the company that currently makes Acthar in the United States, Mallinckrodt Pharmaceuticals, bought the rights to Synacthen in America and doesn’t sell it in the US.

    If you didn’t catch the episode of 60 Minutes, you need to watch it right now. Or, don’t, if you’re trying to keep your blood pressure down.



    (Video at link)




    What does the company have to say for itself? Mallinckrodt insists that the price hike occurred before it bought Questcor pharmaceuticals in 2014, which used to produce Acthar. Mallinckrodt owns Questcor now, but told 60 Minutes in a series of emails that it’s not doing anything. The company didn’t send a representative to appear on camera.

    The story of Acthar should be familiar to anyone who followed the EpiPen saga of 2016. The price of the EpiPen, a common injectable drug product for allergies, went from $57 in 2007 to roughly $600 in 2016. Mylan, the maker of EpiPen, did absolutely nothing to improve the product while it engaged in this price gouging. Thankfully, the US Justice Department appears to be investigating Mylan and according to some reports might finally bring charges this year against the company for a host of allegations, including price fixing. The investigation into Mylan reportedly started in 2014. But we’ll see if anyone goes to jail.

    As for Mallinckrodt, that company will continue to charge $40,000 for a drug that’s been out of patent for decades. And they’ve even expanded the marketing for the drug to treat things like rheumatoid arthritis. As you can see from the episode, there’s no real evidence that Acthar is effective in treating arthritis.

    ...
    Full article and 60 Minutes video (which has bias) at link.

    ---

    This is why Monopolies are bad. Whether its in banking or cars or home builders or internet service, Monopolies take advantage of the law to prohibit competition so they can do exactly what they did.

    According to another film, Food, Inc. the heads of the FDA usually either have worked for Monsanto (now owned by Bayer, drug manufacturer), or leave the FDA to work for Monsanto / Bayer. How is this a system of checks and balances that work for the people? Two things: Maybe if the Govt would quit getting involved in Health Care by providing the now mandatory health insurance for City Employees, its obvious their solution is causing more problems than its correcting, and TWO: Maybe if the Govt would quit getting involved in Health Care? Yes, exact same thing, this time caused by Congress passing a bill saying Medicare / Medicaid is "prohibited" from negotiating prices with Drug Manufacturers to lower costs. Funny how they say "Lower" and the prices go up?

    Libertarian Solutions:
    - Get Government out of Health Care
    - Get Government out of Health Care
    - Repeal Mandatory Health Insurance Laws
    - Get Government out of Health Care
    - Repeal Laws that Prohibit Price Negotiations
    - Get Government out of Health Care
    - Get Government out of Health Care
    - Get Government out of Health Care
    - Get rid of Medicare / Medicaid
    - Get Government out of Health Care
    - Get Rid of the FDA
    - Let the Free Market determine Prices for both Insurance and Health Care
    - Get Government out of Health Care

    Any other Libertarian solutions? This is obviously a Multi Tier Trap, so Libertarian solutions need to see where Govt has gotten itself involved in too many places.

    There are THREE Stages to Revolution:
    1. Spread of Information
    2. Public Disobedience
    3. Violence


    Violence is to be avoided when possible, but it sometimes necessary. This is where you need to be actively involved in the first two steps, Spread Information, and Disobey the Law. I can not advocate Violence, but only remind you to be prepared for it as it WILL be used against you. Remember that the people that are willing to point the guns at your head are also victims, convince those people to turn those guns against those who are truly hurting We The People. When / If Violence is enacted against you, dont try to win by fighting back only using violence. Instead, show those people using the Violence against you a True Liberty Solution that frees them. Show them their own chains, then, you just increased the size of your Group into an Army.
    Last edited by DamianTV; 05-09-2018 at 02:30 PM.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    You are Ron Paul's Media!

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    Our central bank is not privately owned.



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  3. #2
    "Whatever the market will bear". Or should the government determine what a "fair price" may be?

    You can buy an identical drug to Acthar called Synacthen for just $33 in Canada. Synacthen is also available in Europe, where the drug is also reasonably priced.
    Canada and Europe have nationalized healthcare programs. (and much lower overall healthcare costs)
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-09-2018 at 04:02 PM.
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  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    "Whatever the market will bear". Or should the government determine what a "fair price" may be?
    A "fair price" is whatever the free market provides without government interference. That means if somebody else learns how to make it and wants to sell it closer to cost, they can.

    Only the govt. would pay $40k for a drug, in the free market it would probably cost $10 or $20 at most, because that is what people would be willing to pay. Any higher than that, you are going to get other people trying to manufacture it, or a similar product.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Canada and Europe have nationalized healthcare programs. (and much lower overall healthcare costs)
    Canada often has 15 month waiting periods for treatments.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    A "fair price" is whatever the free market provides without government interference. That means if somebody else learns how to make it and wants to sell it closer to cost, they can.

    Only the govt. would pay $40k for a drug, in the free market it would probably cost $10 or $20 at most, because that is what people would be willing to pay. Any higher than that, you are going to get other people trying to manufacture it, or a similar product.



    Canada often has 15 month waiting periods for treatments.

    Americans can wait a long time for some treatments as well. I have already been waiting three months for some minor surgery.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Americans can wait a long time for some treatments as well. I have already been waiting three months for some minor surgery.
    Isn't socialism great?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Isn't socialism great?
    Our medicine isn't socialized.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our medicine isn't socialized.
    ...completely.... yet

    Do you think it should be?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    ...completely.... yet

    Do you think it should be?
    All systems have their pluses and minuses. Single payer is more effective from a cost standpoint (we for example spend more than half our medical costs on paperwork/ overhead with all the different forms required for all the different insurance plans in effect while countries like Canada only spend roughly 15% on overhead). On the other hand, choice is limited.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Single payer is more effective from a cost standpoint
    First of all, I think it is completely insane to say, "well, the US has insurance companies, and these countries have single payer healthcare and their costs are lower so it must be because of single payer" when there are a multitude of reasons why US has expensive health care that have to do with government mandates, market distortions in insurance and government provided medicare and medicaid.

    You are comparing a corporatized system to a socialized system that is piggy backing on market forces to provide their costing information.

    If all there was in the world was single payer, do you still believe that would be true? Or is it that market forces in some areas help set the prices that single payer governments can use as an indicator to price their goods and services? I mean, how would a single payer system be able to price any of the services in a vacuum without some market activity happening somewhere?

    Ron Paul correctly believes that healthcare costs are too high in our country because government subsidizes corporate insurance plans which tend to cover too much, in other words they provide more coverage than what people would normally buy in the free market - and on top of that you have medicare and medicaid - and all of this creates an atmosphere in which medical providers can command high prices from the deep pockets of insurance and government while consumers are so padded from the costs that they don't consciously make medical decisions based on the cost of treatment.

    In other words, if we had a real free market in medicine in this country, the cost of various medical services would be much lower than they are now and would be lower than any single payer system.
    Last edited by dannno; 05-10-2018 at 02:18 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  12. #10
    You are right, there are other factors as well. But just consider the paperwork issue. In Canada, you have one payer so when a doctor give you a treatment and another patient the same treatment, he can send the exact same form with the same supporting documents to a single place. In the US, each patient the same doctor sees may have a completely different plan. That means each patient requires a completely different form with a completely different set of supporting documents each sent to a completely different place to try to get paid. That takes a lot more time and money.

    Interesting interview:

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy...care-cost-so-m

    Paul Solman: Why does health care cost so much in America?

    David Cutler: Let me give you three reasons why. The first one is because the administrative costs of running our health care system are astronomical. About one quarter of health care cost is associated with administration, which is far higher than in any other country.

    Paul Solman: What’s the next highest?

    David Cutler: About 10, 15 percent. Just to give you one example, Duke University Hospital has 900 hospital beds and 1,300 billing clerks. The typical Canadian hospital has a handful of billing clerks. Single-payer systems have fewer administrative needs. That’s not to say they’re better, but that’s just on one dimension that they clearly cost less. What a lot of those people are doing in America is they are figuring out how to bill different insurers for different systems, figuring out how to collect money from people, all of that sort of stuff.

    The second reason health care costs so much in America is that the U.S. spends more than other countries do on many of the same things. Drugs are the most commonly noted item, where a branded drug will cost much more in the U.S. than in other countries. But, for example, doctors also earn more for doing the same thing in the U.S. than they do in other countries, and a lot of suppliers charge more for things like durable medical equipment in the U.S. than in other countries.

    Paul Solman: And that’s not only doctors being paid more in this country, but the United States making the decision as a government not to buy drugs in bulk and therefore to bid down the price that pharmaceutical companies can charge.

    David Cutler: The lowest prices for pharmaceuticals, and a variety of other medical devices and payments to physicians, are in government plans. So Medicaid gets the best prices on pharmaceuticals. In terms of physician payments, Medicaid payments are the lowest. Medicare payments are above that and private payments are above that. The more leverage the buyer has, the lower the price they get. That’s true in every industry. In health care, the United States doesn’t utilize that leverage as much as other countries do.

    Paul Solman: Okay, so that’s two and what’s the third reason?

    David Cutler: The third one is Americans receive more medical care than people do in other countries, not so much in terms of doctor visits, but if a person has a heart attack in the United States, they’re much more likely to get open heart surgery than they are in most other countries.

    Go back to Canada. In all of Ontario there are 11 hospitals that can do open heart surgery. Pennsylvania has roughly the population of Ontario and it has a bit over 60 hospitals that can do open heart surgery. So there’s no way you can operate on as many people in Ontario as you can in Pennsylvania even if you operated around the clock.

    Paul Solman: But that means that the people in Canada or in Ontario have to wait longer right?

    David Cutler: Sometimes they wait longer. What’s much more common is that there’s a lot of gray area where it’s not clear if you need the open heart surgery or not, and in the U.S., people will get it and in Canada, they don’t. The interesting thing about it is that life expectancy or one-year mortality after a heart attack is the same in the two countries.

    Is The Rise of Costs Inevitable?

    Paul Solman: Are medical costs going to inevitably go up because there will always be new technologies and new technologies are always expensive?

    David Cutler: Technology is the underlying driver and there will always be some of that, which is why health care will not be like other industries in terms of always, always going down in price.

    On the other hand, there’s so much waste in the system — our best guess is that about a third of medical spending is not associated with improved outcomes — that for the next 15 to 20 years people believe that costs could be stable or falling as a share of the economy without cutting into necessary services — just by eliminating the things that are not necessary…

    What we’ve done in Massachusetts is we’ve said, don’t just give people very high cost-sharing in general; do what’s called tiering it — that is, tell people that if you look for basic levels of care, you’re not going to face very high costs, but if you want to go to the teaching hospital for the routine procedure, you’re going to have to pay a lot for that. And we mandate that insurance companies have to tell people the price of any service. So if your doctor says you need an MRI, you can go on the computer and your insurance company’s website and figure out exactly your cost sharing at each place where they would do the MRI.

    Paul Solman: So that will provide comparison shopping.

    David Cutler: That’s on the demand side. Give people more skin in the game and give them the information so they can do real shopping.

    Paul Solman: More skin in the game, meaning higher co-pays?

    David Cutler: Higher co-pays. We know that people respond to co-payments and they like cheaper care. So the hope is to steer people to less expensive sites. We’ve also pushed very strongly that insurance payments to doctors and hospitals and other care providers not be based on volume (so-called “fee for service”), but instead be value-based payments.

    So say, here’s a person with coronary artery disease. Pay a fixed amount for that person and let the medical professionals figure out how to treat that person, not with the incentive to do more and earn more, but with the incentive to figure out how to do what’s right and keep them from using very expensive services.

    Paul Solman: But doesn’t that provide an incentive or a prod to the provider to stint on the services, stint on the MRI, say, that I might otherwise get?

    David Cutler: What that’s being coupled with is a very aggressive approach to measuring quality. … Really what we’re doing is two things: one is on the demand side trying to make people smarter consumers, and the second is on the provider side, eliminating the monetary incentives to do more testing and procedures. Instead, let’s move to a system that says, “do what’s appropriate, make the patients better and you’ll get rewarded for it.”

    What If I Want a Certain Procedure?

    Paul Solman: Well it sounds ideal, but I just keep thinking that I’d want to go to the dermatologist every six months, say, just to check out every possible discoloration. I’m a little crazy that way, but also, I feel, maximally prudent.

    David Cutler: A lot of provider organizations are putting the doctors on a salary basis. Let’s gather our doctors together to figure out what the evidence says is right. If the literature is clear, let’s make sure we do that 100 percent of the time. If the literature is not clear, let’s go through our records and see how we can do better. If the patient then wants more, then say, “Okay, fine, you can have that, but you’re going to pay a little more because that’s not what the literature says is necessary in your case.”

    Paul Solman: Well, of course, presumably my insurance company is already trying to do that.

    David Cutler: Typically they’re very bad at it though, and when they tell the doctors they’ve imposed this, it goes poorly.

    Paul Solman: So right now, I go to a dermatologist on a regular basis — I’ve always had some skin difficulties, but I’ve never had a melanoma — and that’s covered by my insurance. You’re saying, hey, if I’m a little paranoid with regard to discolorations, fine, let me go, but then I ought to pay to do that?

    David Cutler: Increasingly, I believe insurers will make you pay more for care that you want to do that’s not medically necessary.

    Paul Solman: Well medically necessary by what standards?

    David Cutler: Care that’s ordered; that’s not following some accepted standard. You see this in certain parts of the country where the insurers say, “We’ll pay only a fixed amount for a knee replacement. We’ve determined that high quality knee replacement can be had for $8,000 nearby you. So we’ll give you $8,000. Now if you want to go to someone else who charges $20,000, fine, but you’re gonna pay the extra $12,000.”

    Paul Solman: And my insurer did that recently with regard to a bronchial inhaler and said, “No, you can’t get that one; you can only get this cheaper one.”

    David Cutler: Exactly, it’s what they’ve been doing with drugs for quite a long time. The generic version is very cheap; the branded drug is much more expensive.

    In a lot of parts of the country, they’re just saying, “Look, if you want this service at all, you’re going to pay a lot of money.” The trend in health care nationally is to put more and more on the patient.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    You are right, there are other factors as well. But just consider the paperwork issue. In Canada, you have one payer so when a doctor give you a treatment and another patient the same treatment, he can send the exact same form with the same supporting documents to a single place. In the US, each patient the same doctor sees may have a completely different plan. That means each patient requires a completely different form with a completely different set of supporting documents each sent to a completely different place to try to get paid. That takes a lot more time and money.

    Interesting interview:

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy...care-cost-so-m
    Oh zip...

    If people could, INDIVIDUALLY, choose their insurance companies and their doctors, then they would opt for the best treatment at the lowest cost.

    This would incentivize the free market to come up with solutions, such as standardizing forms, in order to reduce costs to attract customers.

    Currently consumers have little or no choice in who their insurance provider is, thus insurance companies have little incentive in reducing these costs.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Oh zip...

    If people could, INDIVIDUALLY, choose their insurance companies and their doctors, then they would opt for the best treatment at the lowest cost.

    This would incentivize the free market to come up with solutions, such as standardizing forms, in order to reduce costs to attract customers.

    Currently consumers have little or no choice in who their insurance provider is, thus insurance companies have little incentive in reducing these costs.
    If consumers have to pay for their medical treatments themselves they may choose the lower cost option. You also assume they will have complete knowledge of what comparable treatment would cost them- people have neither the time nor knowledge to sort through that. (which is why the interview I posted suggests higher co-payments so consumers have a reason to try to pick lower cost options).

    With insurance, you only care if the insurance will cover it. You don't necessarily see the link between the costs of your insurance plan and your medical choices. If you have insurance and get the flu, you may decide to go to the doctor, get checked out and maybe a couple prescriptions. The visit was say $100 and two prescriptions say $50 each. Or if you didn't have insurance, you go to the store, get some soup and some over the counter medications and spend maybe $20. With insurance, you spend $200. But that was paid by the insurance so it didn't directly cost you anything. The more expensive option was actually cheaper in terms of your out of pocket costs.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    If consumers have to pay for their medical treatments themselves they may choose the lower cost option. You also assume they will have complete knowledge of what comparable treatment would cost them- people have neither the time nor knowledge to sort through that. (which is why the interview I posted suggests higher co-payments so consumers have a reason to try to pick lower cost options).

    With insurance, you only care if the insurance will cover it. You don't necessarily see the link between the costs of your insurance plan and your medical choices. If you have insurance and get the flu, you may decide to go to the doctor, get checked out and maybe a couple prescriptions. The visit was say $100 and two prescriptions say $50 each. Or if you didn't have insurance, you go to the store, get some soup and some over the counter medications and spend maybe $20. With insurance, you spend $200. But that was paid by the insurance so it didn't directly cost you anything. The more expensive option was actually cheaper in terms of your out of pocket costs.
    So you think if we have free healthcare that person would go to the store and get soup or get ~$200 in unnecessary medical services?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    So you think if we have free healthcare that person would go to the store and get soup or get ~$200 in unnecessary medical services?
    You get that with any form of health insurance- whether paid for via taxes or your employer or the individual.

    Maybe we should get rid of all insurance. Cash and carry. Get only the medical treatments you can afford. (just don't get into any serious accidents or diseases).

    Ration care based on what you can afford.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-10-2018 at 02:54 PM.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    You get that with any form of health insurance- whether paid for via taxes or your employer or the individual.

    Maybe we should get rid of all insurance. Cash and carry. Get only the medical treatments you can afford. (just don't get into any serious accidents or diseases).

    Ration care based on what you can afford.
    Now you're are finally getting somewhere. Do this and get government out of it, totally out of it, and you end up with affordable healthcare.

    The Surgery Center of Oklahoma is a cash only business. No insurance allowed. Their costs are less than half that of other surgery centers. They also have a great series explaining why getting government and insurance out of the business is the best option.

    https://surgerycenterok.com/
    Theye have refused their Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    Theye have erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

    Theye kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies

    Theye have combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution,

    For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

    For cutting off our Trade with parts of the world:

    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

    Theye plundered and destroyed the lives of our people.

    Theye are at this time transporting Armies of Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy of a civilized nation.

  18. #16
    Storm lag double post.
    Last edited by phill4paul; 05-10-2018 at 03:21 PM.
    Theye have refused their Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    Theye have erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

    Theye kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies

    Theye have combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution,

    For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

    For cutting off our Trade with parts of the world:

    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

    Theye plundered and destroyed the lives of our people.

    Theye are at this time transporting Armies of Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy of a civilized nation.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    You get that with any form of health insurance- whether paid for via taxes or your employer or the individual.

    Maybe we should get rid of all insurance. Cash and carry. Get only the medical treatments you can afford. (just don't get into any serious accidents or diseases).

    Ration care based on what you can afford.
    Ya, but like I said before (I don't know why you don't have the capability to learn new things) - GOVERNMENT is the reason why so many individuals are over-insured. If it were up to individuals, most people would have catastrophic insurance for expensive treatments and they would pay for doctors visits and most medical costs out of pocket. So, that in fact wouldn't happen in that case and that was the whole point of my previous post..
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Ya, but like I said before (I don't know why you don't have the capability to learn new things) - GOVERNMENT is the reason why so many individuals are over-insured. If it were up to individuals, most people would have catastrophic insurance for expensive treatments and they would pay for doctors visits and most medical costs out of pocket. So, that in fact wouldn't happen in that case and that was the whole point of my previous post..
    He's being purposely obtuse. This has been discussed here, many, many, times.

    Such as when Ron Paul got a medical degree from Duke University on savings and part time jobs. Government involvement in health care has done the same thing as government involvement in education.
    Last edited by phill4paul; 05-10-2018 at 03:48 PM.
    Theye have refused their Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    Theye have erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

    Theye kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies

    Theye have combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution,

    For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

    For cutting off our Trade with parts of the world:

    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

    Theye plundered and destroyed the lives of our people.

    Theye are at this time transporting Armies of Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy of a civilized nation.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    He's being purposely obtuse. This has been discussed here, many, many, times.

    Such as when Ron Paul got a medical degree from Duke University on savings and part time jobs. Government involvement in health care has done the same thing as government involvement in education.
    Ya that's my #1 complaint about zippy. He never learns. You can teach him a basic lesson, and in a few months the same subject comes up and it's like it never happened. He is exactly the same as he was 10 years ago. In that time we have all learned and grown and have slightly different opinions that we had before, but not zippy. And it's not out of any sort of principles, it is out of a clear biased left-wing pro-government agenda.

    My #2 complaint about zippy is the fact we still have a lot of people here who think he is a good poster. I just can't square those two things. How does he do it?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  23. #20
    As I have said, every system has its pluses and its minuses. Insurance helps more people access care but raises costs on average. National insurance lowers costs but lowers choices. No insurance means that those at low income can't afford healthcare.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  24. #21
    Would the drug in the OP be cheap without any government regulations? Would the free market force them to lower it? The key here is the demand. Is there enough to spur competition for more sources?

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/07/mall...ug-prices.html

    The drug is used to treat a rare and potentially fatal condition affecting 2,000 babies each year.
    2000 a year is a pretty small demand for a drug. That does not encourage suppliers to come up with cheaper alternatives. Especially given the costs of developing a drug.

    The other factor is is the demand elastic? Will it rise and fall with the price- even though the demand is already pretty small? Given that the disease is possibly fatal, parents will be willing to pay what they can to get the medicine rather than watch their child die. In a free market, it would likely not be only the $30 a dose Canadian government has been able to negotiate to buy it at.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    As I have said, every system has its pluses and its minuses. Insurance helps more people access care but raises costs on average. National insurance lowers costs but lowers choices. No insurance means that those at low income can't afford healthcare.
    "Can't afford" is not the same as "won't have access to." The advent and rise of insurance, as well as government involvement, has led to the demise of fraternal and religious organizations which provided healthcare to those unable to afford it.
    Theye have refused their Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

    Theye have erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

    Theye kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies

    Theye have combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution,

    For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

    For cutting off our Trade with parts of the world:

    For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

    For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

    Theye plundered and destroyed the lives of our people.

    Theye are at this time transporting Armies of Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy of a civilized nation.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    As I have said, every system has its pluses and its minuses. Insurance helps more people access care but raises costs on average. National insurance lowers costs but lowers choices. No insurance means that those at low income can't afford healthcare.
    Insurance does nothing more than deprive more people of more money without providing service in return. In fact, that is exactly the point of insurance, to take money without providing something of equal value in return.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    You are Ron Paul's Media!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Insurance does nothing more than deprive more people of more money without providing service in return. In fact, that is exactly the point of insurance, to take money without providing something of equal value in return.
    Insurance is placing a bet. You are betting you will need money for something in the future and the insurance company is betting you won't. Ideally, you should only insure what you would not be able to pay for yourself. Insurance to cover a cracked screen on your phone? A waste of money. Catastrophic health insurance? Maybe not a bad idea though you hope you never need to use it. And yes, the odds do favor the house. Or they won't be in business.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 05-10-2018 at 08:53 PM.
    Donald Trump: 'What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening'

    "Truth isn't truth"- Rudy Giuliani

    "China has total respect for Donald Trump and for Donald Trump's very, very large brain," - Donald Trump.

    I am Zippy and I approve of this post. But you don't have to.



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    ...people have neither the time nor knowledge to sort through that.

    You don't have the time to take care of your own health? You don't take the time to educate yourself, so you lay it on people like me with legal mandates?
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our medicine isn't socialized.

    Socialized was one of the foundations of Obamacare. You grab all the doctor avoiding people who don't want insurance (like me), and make them pay all the claims of the hospitalized people.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    ...I believe that when the government is capable of doing a thing, it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Influenza View Post
    which one of yall fuckers wrote the "ron paul" racist news letters
    Quote Originally Posted by Dforkus View Post
    Zippy's posts are a great contribution.




    Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    You are right, there are other factors as well. But just consider the paperwork issue. In Canada, you have one payer so when a doctor give you a treatment and another patient the same treatment, he can send the exact same form with the same supporting documents to a single place. In the US, each patient the same doctor sees may have a completely different plan. That means each patient requires a completely different form with a completely different set of supporting documents each sent to a completely different place to try to get paid. That takes a lot more time and money.

    Interesting interview:

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy...care-cost-so-m
    Just imagine how efficient our country could be if the government paid for everything
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Rand Paul (Vice Pres) 2016!!!!

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Just imagine how efficient our country could be if the government paid for everything
    A government big enough to give everyone everything they want is big enough to take it all away.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    You are Ron Paul's Media!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Insurance is placing a bet. You are betting you will need money for something in the future and the insurance company is betting you won't. Ideally, you should only insure what you would not be able to pay for yourself. Insurance to cover a cracked screen on your phone? A waste of money. Catastrophic health insurance? Maybe not a bad idea though you hope you never need to use it. And yes, the odds do favor the house. Or they won't be in business.
    That is really not a good way to look at it. When you buy life insurance, you are not 'betting' that you are going to die.

    A better way is to look at it like savings account that a bunch of people are putting a little bit of money into that only a few people will end up needing to draw from. But the problem is, one month of premiums won't be enough money in case there is a large payout right away so instead of just getting a bunch of people together and putting money into a savings account, you have someone loan the reserves to create a savings account large enough in case payouts are needed right away, and then the premiums go to paying back the loan that was created to make the reserves plus interest.

    Putting $5,000 away each month in order to save up $500k after 8.3 years in case you die and your family needs money to survive is not only incredibly burdensome but if you die after 6 months you will only have $30k saved up. In addition, the probability is that you won't die and so those funds may have been better spent investing in property or something else. With insurance, you can spend $80/month which is not very burdensome a long with many other people into a fund which your family could draw $500k from if you die.. in 6 months, 4 years, whenever it happens.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc


    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  34. #30
    Let me see. So the article claims:

    "As for Mallinckrodt, that company will continue to charge $40,000 for a drug that’s been out of patent for decades. And they’ve even expanded the marketing for the drug to treat things like rheumatoid arthritis. As you can see from the episode, there’s no real evidence that Acthar is effective in treating arthritis."

    If it is out of patent, then why is anybody paying $40,000 for it? Oh yeah. Stupid people and/or government regulation.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

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